37 Pontiac Heat-Riser issue and Valve Job discussion

[Guest]

Don,

Another concern I have is the fact that by putting some oil in the cylinders, the compression went up. If I am understanding things correctly, then would this mean that this would be definite ring problems, and not the valves, or could adding this oil cause the valves to seat better as well? When he put 125 psi of air into the cylinders, he could hear it escaping from the tail pipe (exhaust valves) as well as the carb (intake valves), but could not hear it though the crank case. This would point to bad valves, and not bad rings. Maybe my thinking is wrong, but it would seem to me that these are conflicting answers/results. Of course, if the oil being added to the cylinders could help seal/seat the valves, then all this could still be the valves.

Opinions?

Jim, putting oil in cylinders is the accepted method when doing a compression test after it is determined that a cylinder has a low dry compression test reading. On the second test with oil added a burnt or a hung open valve will not change the readings when oil is applied. The second test, often called the wet test is a test to see if it's cylinder wall/rings are the reason for the first dry test readings when they are low. To sum up if squirting oil in the cylinder raises the compression to acceptable compression readings, yes it indicates rings.

When the mechanic put 125psi into the cylinder ( I guess this guy doesn't have a leak down detector) , and providing the piston of that particular cylinder is on TDC and the engine is locked up so it cant move. He hears air escaping at the tailpipe that indicates a leaking exhaust valve. If he hears air escaping when his ear is at the carburetor and the carburetor throttle is wide open, it indicates a intake valve. If he hears air leaking at the breather tube, it indicates rings, If he sees bubbles in the radiator coolent with the cap removed, it indicates a head gasket.

As I stated before, there is always some blowby past the rings even in a brand new engine. Just like humans, a engine starts to wear out from day 1.

The leak down test on a good running broken in engine will tell you; zero leakage on intake and exhaust valves, the percentage of leakage going by the rings, the amount of % determines when the engine needs a ring job/ re-bore.

D.

[Guest bofusmosby]

Don

I forgot to mention, when I spoke to my mechanic, he said that the leak down test was I believe he said 60%, which is not good. Sorry, I left that out before.

[Guest bofusmosby]

For those of you that have been keeping up with the escapades of my 37 Pontiac, my car might need a valve job. My mechanic quoted me a price of $1,800 to do this. He said that he would have to pull the engine and have the block sent out (the valves are in the block on this flat-head 6 cylinder engine). Well, that is totally out of the question,,, you know, lack of funds. I went to an old garage and talked to the owner about an estimate to do a valve job, and also asked him if the engine would have to be pulled (I told him what the other mechanic had said). He said there is no way that the engine would have to be pulled! He said that he has all the specs, tools and equipment to do the complete job right there in his shop. He said that as long as there are no burned valves, then his labor charge would be around $150. Of course with the gaskets (I would get them for him before he did the job, and some possible valves and other parts if needed) the final price will be higher, but I am concerned about the low price he quoted. Is this price within reason?

This mechanic appears to be old school. He is in his 60's, and has had the garage for decades. He also told me something else that has me a bit concerned, so I thought I would relay this to you guys, to see if there is any logic or validity to what he said. He told me that if the valves have some rust and/or carbon on them, causing them not to seal correctly, then here is what to do. Start the engine and warm it up. Have the engine running at about 2-3000 RPMs, and while the engine is running, slowly pour 12 oz of water into the carb. When the engine starts to die, stop pouring the water until the engine picks back up. Do this until the water is gone. He then said to pour 12 oz of transmission fluid slowly into the carb, the same way the water was done. He said that when the water is poured in the carb, all sorts of trash will come out the tail pipe, rust carbon etc from being broken loose around the valves. Then the transmission fluid will flush everything out and it will blow smoke like crazy. He said as long as the valves are not damaged, there is a good chance that this will take care of it!

OK guys, I'd like to opinions on this. Have any of you EVER heard of anything like this before? Is he a nut? Is this an old-timer trick that was done in "the day"? I really don't know what to think about it. I DO remember something about putting transmission fluid into the carb of a running engine to clean something, but I don't recall who told me that many years ago.

BTW, he is familiar with the engine in my car. He pretty much told me how he would do it, and what tools he would need. He also knows that the valves (springs, clips etc) are gotten to from the plate on the side of the engine just below the manifolds. He SEEMED to know what he was talking about, but then again, I'm not a mechanic.

Please guys, I'd like some opinions on this, and thank you!

[Guest bofusmosby]

OK, here's an update. Ater having the carb pulled and rebuilt, an inline fuel filter installed on the frame rail between the tank and the pump, doing an oil change and lube and adjusting the valves (costing me $550) there is no change! The mechanic told me that the car needs a valve job, and for him to do it, it would be about $1,800. I told him forget it. There is no way I can afford to spend that much more money, my finances will not allow it. I'll be picking up the car Monday evening, and then go from there.

I'll post the final if and when I ever get this problem taken care of, or if I will even be keeping the car. I just don't have the money for this. Thank you guys for all your help. I was hoping that this thread would have a happy ending, but right now, it is looking very doubtful.

[junkyardjeff]

Years ago the machine shops around here would come to your garage to do valve jobs on the flathead motors but how times have changed,it can be done without removing the motor if you know what you are doing as I have done valve jobs myself but on OHV motors.

[Guest Water Jacket]

An old friend, a lifelong auto/aircraft mechanic and machinist, said they commonly did precisely what the gentleman you mention above prescribes. It can't hurt, so long as you don't let the engine die, hence his directive to keep it on a very fast idle.

This fellow sounds like he's indeed been around and knows what he's talking about. Sadly, there are many gladhanding "restoration" shops these days, but few mechanics as above who practice what was widely, commonly done in the day.

Give it a shot. It won't hurt, so long as you don't kill the engine. Poor the water in slowly and don't let it die. That's the key. My auld mechanic friend said they used a Coke bottle in the old days, which would hold the amount of water the gent above suggests.

If it turns out you really do need a valve job, of course it can be done in the car. I get the feeling there are a lot of well-meaning young fellows on this forum. Valve jobs were always done in the car. Another old mechanic friend, who during War II was staff sergeant of the motor pool on various islands in the Pacific theater, then worked in Packard, Hudson and Pontiac dealerships until opening his own garage,

said in the early '50s he and the mechanic in the next bay would each have a Pontiac straight eight valve job first thing early that morning. The last one to have the engine idling with the valves adjusted had to buy lunch.

BTW, with an L-head/flathead/valve-in-block engine like your Pontiac six, it's always wise to set the valves a trace loose with a go/no-go gauge. Check with experienced Pontiac mechanic for your specs. I know that with dead lifter Packards, it's always smart to, rather than 007 & .010 inlet/exhaust, go .007/.009 & .010/.012 go/no-go gauge.

But first, give the "water injection" method a shot. It just might save you time and money. I don't know the mileage on your engine, etc. One of the first things any good mechanic'll tell you is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Relax. These are simple, reliable engines. Go slow, have fun, enjoy the ride. Think "Zen and the Art of Old Pontiac Maintenance."

BTW, to my chagrin as then a Packard 120 owner, the veteran mentioned above said the best cold weather cars he ever saw back in the '40s, very early '50s were Pontiac straight eights (and i'm sure sixes are much the same). For some reason(s); their chokes, their model of Carter WDO carburetor (Packards, Hudsons, others also used WDOs); when it was an ice cold morning, he laughed, "....the Pontiacs would always start."

Edited April 22, 2012 by Water Jacket (see edit history)

[Guest kaycee]

It sounds to me like the "old timer" knows what he's talking about and from his and my experience. It's senseless to pull a flathead six or eight for a valve job. Maybe more work and parts are needed for guides etc, but it's not a major teardown. Stay with the older experienced mechanic! From a seventy year old "backyarder" who's done a few of these in his day!

kaycee

[Guest]

Yes this is a way to clean carbon off the exhaust valve, the top of the piston and the top of the intake valve and the whole combustion chamber. If I'm going to be rebuilding a engine I also do this because it saves time cleaning the combustion chamber and all the above parts. Every so often I will add one quart of ATF to a full tank of gas on all my cars except the new cars that have catalytic converters. This keeps the carbon build up down and prevents detonation.

Question: why didn't you just continue this on your old thread instead of starting a new one??:confused:.

BTW, this will only clean a piece of carbon off a valve face or valve seat. If the valve is burnt or the seat needs to be refaced it will not help. In other words if either faces are truly burnt it's a no go.

D.

Edited April 22, 2012 by helfen (see edit history)

[Coley]

Use the water, but not the oil. We used to use the oil just to Pee off the shop foreman.

Valve job can be done in the car, just have some very good heavy fender pads.

We also used to turn the rod journals on the crank, with the engine in the car or truck.

Cylinders were bored in the vehicle also. Times have changed.

[Guest bofusmosby]

Helfen.

I did add to my old thread, and I will continue to add to it until either I sell the car (my last choice) or I get this thing repaired and running good. I mostly wanted to get opinions on what this other mechanic said, and this would determine if I actually take the car to him. By what I have read, I will be doing just that.

kaycee & Water Jacket

Thank you for your opinions. It is obvious that what this guy told me, I can rest easy knowing that he knows what he is talking about. I had never heard of this procedure, but I think I'll give it a try! What do I have to loose? It's funny that you would mention a coke bottle, because that is exactly what he said!

junkyardjeff

I know what you mean about how things have changed. Even in my line of work (TV repair) there have been so many changes.

Coley

Why should I not use the transmission oil? Will this create a problem?

[Guest Water Jacket]

Amen to the three wise men above. The Coke bottle full of water is all my old friend ever mentioned. The follow up with ATF or oil is new to me, so i agree with the above gents.

Keep us posted. This thread's fine.

And remember the acronym K.I.S.S.

[Guest]

Use the water, but not the oil. We used to use the oil just to Pee off the shop foreman.

Valve job can be done in the car, just have some very good heavy fender pads.

We also used to turn the rod journals on the crank, with the engine in the car or truck.

Cylinders were bored in the vehicle also. Times have changed.

The ATF really does clean up the chamber, and not only that can sometimes free up a sticky ring. That is also why it's added to the tank every so often. It does the same thing as those so called top end cleaners that cost three times as much.

Another little tip; if you have a carburetor that has some of it's passage/jets clogged up you can sometimes clean all that crud and sometimes varnish by getting the engine warmed up, remove the air cleaner, bring the rpm up to about 3,500 and put the palm of your hand over the top of the air horn on the carburetor and before the engine dies manually with your other hand manipulate the throttle from the closed position the the wide open several times and keep repeating.

With the high amount of vacuum from the engine and no air going to the engine because your hand is over the air horn, the vacuum will suck those passageways clean. My 76 Olds gets this done every other oil change and with 110,000 miles the carburetor has never been apart.

Edited April 22, 2012 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest Water Jacket]

Van Heflin makes a good point. The ATF is akin to the Marvel Mystery Oil many of us use in our top oilers to keep the rings and valves free and clean.

I'm a believer in www.ampcolubes.com

And Red Line Lead Substitute.

Thanks for the palming the carburetor tip.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Water Jacket (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

Helfen, thank you for explaining the ATF reason. I was wondering, but I see that this old mechanic DOES know what he is talking about.

Also about the carb trick.

[Guest]

Van Heflin makes a good point. The ATF is akin to the Marvel Mystery Oil many of us use in our top oilers to keep the rings and valves free and clean.

I'm a believer in Ampco Lubricators LLC - an Ampco oiler saves valves and protects engines

And Red Line Lead Substitute.

Thanks for the palming the carburetor tip.

I also believe in the ZDDPlus Phosphate and Zink oil supplement additive on all engines with flat tappet cams, unless I'm rebuilding a fresh engine, and for those engines I use Chevron Delo 400 which still has those ingredients in it.

Question Water Jacket; how come you made me Dutch instead of what I am??? It really should be Von, but that was actually taken away from my grandfather at Ellis Island in 1906!:mad:

D.

[Guest Water Jacket]

Just a small word play. Van Heflin's an actor you've seen in many old movies made after Bofus' Pontiac but before your Oldsmobile.

[Dandy Dave]

I still do valve jobs from time to time the old way and have a Sioux valve refacer and seat tool. There are a lot of old flat head engines still being used for all types of applications, and from time to time one will need a valve job. The old timer knows what he is talking about. $150 dollars for labor is a bargain. He most likely gave you that quote because he likes to work on old stuff and wants to keep his hand in it from time to time. The only problem that you may run into is if a valve seat is burned, or worn to the point that it will need to be replaced with a hardened seat. Not likely, but you never know until you pull the valves.

The first thing you should do is a compression test to determine which cylinders are weak, if any.

The $1,800 Quote would be for pulling the motor, completely dissasembling it, and then sending the block to a machine shop that will install hardened seats. For the little that we run these old cars that is normally not necessary, but is recommended if a complete overhaul is being done and the valve seats are badly worn. Dandy Dave!

[Guest bofusmosby]

Thank you Dave. Like I said before, I'll have to have the gaskets on hand when Imtake the car to him, so there will be as little down time as possible. He also told me that if there were burned valves, then the price would go up, depending on what needs to be replaced. You mention about compression. Well, my other mechanic said that the highest compression he could get was 90 psi, and this was when the engine was running at about 1000 rpms. All of the cylinders were even with this reading. This other mechanic that I will be taking my car to said that if there was 80-85 psi on all the cylinders, then that should be enough, but keep in mind, he has never seen the car yet. Obviously he doesn't (nor I) want to go by what someone else said, he wants to check it for himself to be sure. My concern was something the other mechanic said. He said that by putting oil into the cylinders, that the compression went up to 150 psi, which sounds like bad rings to me. If this is the case, can't this also be done while the engine is in the car? You know, pull the pan and remove the piston bolts, and pull the pistons out from the top? I know that this new mechanic said it would be several weeks before he could get to it. He said he has several engine rebuilds to do before he can get to my car. If the piston could be pulled in this manner, would this be a huge increase in labor for him?

I know that if the rings are also bad, then the best thing would have him do a complete engine rebuild, but because of the expense, I doubt I can go that way right now.

[Dandy Dave]

An easy test is to pull the oil fill cover off and note the blow by. If you seem to have a lot of mist comming out, then it could be rings. If the engine smokes and is an oil burner, it is a pretty good indication also.

If you turn the motor with a wrench and can hear a lot of hissing in the crankcase chances are that the rings are well worn. Also, listen for leaky exhaust valves. It is easy to do on old motors that have a hand crank. Dandy Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

Thinking furthur... to remove the pistons requires taking the pan down, unbolting the rods and pushing the pistons up and out. To check the rings you need to remove them from the piston and insert them in the cylinder and check the gap with a feeler gage. When you have the head off, an indication of wear will be how much of a ridge you have in the top of the cylinders. Dandy Dave!

[Larry Schramm]

From experience the water trick may work for getting carbon, etc off the valves and top of the pistion. If I thought there was a problem with stuck rings and excessive carbon on the valves and top of the pistions, like said earlier get the engine warm and then put in GM Top Engine Cleaner by pouring down the carb. Pour in until the engine stalls or the can is done. Then let the engine sit for several hours or overnight before restarting. Besides working on the carbon on the valves, it will also soften up anything that might be causing the rings to be tight. Here is a link with a picture and your local dealer may have it.

Gm top engine cleaner for cap tires - HobbyTalk

Edited April 22, 2012 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

What are the symptoms that make you think you need a valve job?

[Dandy Dave]

I read the other post and see you have had a lot of very good advice. I do not think 90 pounds of compression at cranking speed is not out of line either. When you have the engine running, use a screw driver with a good plastic/rubber handle and short the plugs one at a time and listen for a change. If you do not have a change, then that is the cylinder, or cylinders, that are the problem. Note if the problem is constant, or sporadic. This will help narrow it down.

I have a feeling, as others have said, that you have a manifold problem in the heat riser. You cannot see this from the outside. You must take it apart to see the leak. Dandy Dave!

Edited April 23, 2012 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

Restorer32

It would be best to answer your question if you would please read these 2 threads I had posted before. This will tell you of the problems I am having, how the car is running, as well as the suggestions others have given.

PLEASE let me know what you think. Just remember, I am in no way a mechanic, so my knowledge is limited to what I have read in recent times, as well as the help and suggestions I have been given.

This is the first thread I had started with this problem. Please note posts # 17 & 18

http://forums.aaca.org/f120/37-pontiac-engine-not-running-right-295369.html

This is the most recent one about the same issue.

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/37-pontiac-heat-riser-question-325616.html

Please let me know what you think!

Dandy Dave, the mechanic finally told me that the MOST compression he could get was 90 psi. He also said he checked it while cranking the engine, as well as the engine running at approx. 1000 rpms. He didn't say what it checked when just cranking. The funny thing is that ALL 6 cylinders checked about the same.

Edited April 22, 2012 by bofusmosby (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

If there are any suggestion you can make about this problem I am having, please make that post on the thread like I have below.

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/37-pontiac-heat-riser-question-325616.html

I started this thread to find out about a new mechanic, and if it sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Since I have gotten my answers to this question, then any tips or ideas should be added to the other thread. You know, keep the info together. I would really appreciate any and all info you can provide, as well as suggestions, tips or opinions.

Thank you guys!

[Dandy Dave]

OK, I have read the heat riser thread. If your exhaust valves are leaking then you definetly need a valve job. You sure have had a lot of excellent advice getting to the bottom of this problem. Most of everything I could have said has been covered, plus some info. Bravo AACA Gang! :cool:

The only thing that I would add is it could be a crack in an exhaust valve seat which sometimes happens. I think the "floating" valve problem has already been covered.

I would still do the shorting the plugs one at a time test to see which of the cylinders are the culprit. It is easy, you can do it yourself, and it requires no special tools. Just an ear. Dandy Dave!

[Guest bofusmosby]

Dave, I have unplugged the plugs one at a time (would this be the same thing?), and to be honest with you, none of them seem to make much of a difference compared to any of the others. Does that make any sense?

[Dandy Dave]

Unpluging the plugs one at a time will give you the same results as shorting them. A weak cylinder will not fire at all. If the compression is consistant on all cylinders then it will not make a difference. Sometimes it is easier to pin point a problem if there is one, or more, that does miss constantly. Sometimes you can also hear a leaky and wheezing valve in the exhaust. If it is an intake, often an engine will not run at all because the fuel in the manifold is blown out though the intake. Dandy Dave!

[Guest]

Unpluging the plugs one at a time will give you the same results as shorting them. A weak cylinder will not fire at all. If the compression is consistant on all cylinders then it will not make a difference. Sometimes it is easier to pin point a problem if there is one, or more, that does miss constantly. Sometimes you can also hear a leaky and wheezing valve in the exhaust. If it is an intake, often an engine will not run at all because the fuel in the manifold is blown out though the intake. Dandy Dave!

Dave, I think we are all now spinning our wheels here until the engine is at least stripped of it's head. If assuming all cylinders are 60% Per Jim's quote on the other thread;

Re: 37 Pontiac Heat-Riser question

Don

I forgot to mention, when I spoke to my mechanic, he said that the leak down test was I believe he said 60%, which is not good. Sorry, I left that out before.

__________________

Jim

We will just have to wait and see whats in there. Now if all he needs is a valve job-not likely with a constant 60% reading, you could do that in the car. If this engine needs to clean up the bores, I would rather NOT use a boring bar that you could use on the top of the engine IN the car. I would much rather have the block chucked up in a CNC machine to check & correct the line bore and then the bores themselves. The accuracy between the two methods is extraordinarily measurable.

When I was a kid and even before I first started by taking auto shop in school I would get so wound up so lets just wait and see because all we are doing is making Jims head swell up at night. Poor guy probably can't sleep. I don't want for Jim to end up like this poor fellow;

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4922892_f520.jpg

Enjoy your Sunday Jim!

[Guest bofusmosby]

When I was a kid and even before I first started by taking auto shop in school I would get so wound up so lets just wait and see because all we are doing is making Jims head swell up at night. Poor guy probably can't sleep. I don't want for Jim to end up like this poor fellow;

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4922892_f520.jpg

Enjoy your Sunday Jim!

Helfen

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

I can't believe it! I had a dream just last night that your link pretty much described it! I had the engine all apart, and I kept loosing all the parts. Then finally a saw one of my dogs carrying some parts and burying them in the back yard! This is just too much!

Back with what you said, you're right about just taking guesses. I'll drive the car by the other mechanic this coming week, and see what he says. I know that if it DOES need a valve job, it'l be at least 3-5 weeks before he'll be ready for it. I'll be sure and post his findings when I hear them.

Again thanks guys!

[MCHinson]

After discussion with bofusmosby, I have merged the two discussions about the heat riser issue and valve issue. Hopefully this will make it easier for everybody to follow the total discussion. If it makes it more confusing, sorry, this is my first attempt at merging two threads. Let's hope this makes it easier to follow the discussion.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Matt, I think this is very easy to follow now. I can understand Jim's concern as it is unnerving to not know just what your situation is, but I think Helfen's advice is best at this point. In general terms only, " valvejobs" were typical maintenance for these engines and more frequently in need of freshening than rings. I agree the old timer seems to know his stuff, Jim seems to have found just the right guy for this as some of us suggested he do. Sounds like he is on the right track.

Jim, you probably aleady did this but letting him keep the car as long as he needs to and use the work as "filler" will help keep costs down as well. Your last post was kind of comical - I can almost see a separate thread on "Car dreams and nightmares" - I have had a few of both!

Keep us posted!!

[Dandy Dave]

Dave, I think we are all now spinning our wheels here until the engine is at least stripped of it's head. If assuming all cylinders are 60% Per Jim's quote on the other thread;

I just threw out some advice that no one else mentioned, and covered a few things that I did not realize were already covered elsewhere. I did not read his stuff in the Technical section, or heat riser thread first because I was not aware of it until it was pointed out. With that said it is always better, if someone has a tuned ear, to pinpoint the problem cylinder, or cylinders, pryer to pulling the head. It gives a better clue as to which valves and seats to pay special attention to. Just trying to help like everyone else. Not everyone has a tuned ear and is able to pick out which cylinders are missing, and which are not. I agree, at this point, pull the head. Be sure the seats are carefully checked for cracks. Dandy Dave!

[Guest bofusmosby]

You guys are the best! You have no idea as to how much I appreciate all your help and support!

[Guest bofusmosby]

OK, here's the latest update.

I picked up the car from the mechanic that couldn't fix it, and here is what I noticed. The valves are now making a lot of noise. Not just that, but when I went to drive it home, I found that it doesn't work as good as it did before I took it to him! After I shifted into 3rd gear, I had to floor the gas pedal just to get it to 'slowly' pick up speed. Also, when I go to start it, it's like the started locks up for an instand, but then finally starts the car. I was hoping that the battery just needed charged, but after I got home, after about 2 hours (the engine had cooled down), the starter did the same thing. CAN ADJUSTING THE VALVES CAUSE THE ENGINE TO BE TOO TIGHT? Well anyways, I also noticed that during the drive home, the turn signals didn't work. Well, when I got home, I found that there was an open 15 amp fuse. I am thinking that he might have given the car a jump with a 12 volt battery, and the blinkers might have been on when he did this. Don't know if this would cause this or not. (I had noticed that last year that there was a hole in the cover that covers the transmission clutch assembly and fly wheel, but I never could understand why someone had cut an opening in the underside of this cover. Now I believe I do.) It appears that the reason why someone (the previous owner) had cut this hole was evidently the rear main seal is leaking oil, so they put this opening there to drain the oil, so it wouldn't interfere with the clutch assembly. Does this make sense? I noticed that I have an oil leak, and it is dripping out of this opening that was cut in this cover. I'm not talking about a few drops, but a pretty good sized area about the size of a frisbee. One more thing I ahd noticed was that when the front seat is adjusted anywhere but all the way back, the passenger side rocks like a rocking chair. I moved it around a bit, and I may have taken care of THAT problem, but only time will tell.

I drove the car to the other mechanic, and the first thing he did (while the car was running) was to cover the tail pipe, feel it as well as listen to it. He told me the exhaust was too hot. He didn't think that the entire engine needed to be rebuilt, and he said it sounded like half the valves were too tight, while the other half were too loose. Go figure..... He said that he was really swamped right now, and to give him a call in about a month. Only time will tell, as far as what he will find. All I know is I spent $550 for all the "work" that was done, and the car doesn't run as good as it did when I took it to him.

I think I'll have another one of those bad dreams again tonight, to celebrate the car coming home. Well, at least I got an oil change!

How was your day today?

[Guest 51c8Joe]

I've been following your thread so I'll have some info when my 35 Pontiac starts giving me problems. I'm seventy plus and my Dad was a pilot and aircraft mechanic who was always tinkering with something, so all of the advice you've gotten so far fits what he taught me. One other thing no one seems to have mentioned is using a vacuum gauge to analyze an engine. Go to How to Use and Interpret a Vacuum Gauge for a great tutorial on using this cheap and readily available tool to identify the problems with your engine. You can do it yourself with nothing but the gauge and a piece of vacuum hose. Your older mechanic will probably use this method to plan his service.

Joe

Edited April 29, 2012 by 51c8Joe
mis-spellings (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

Thank you Joe. The only thing I know about the vacuum on my engine is it is about 1/2 of what it should be. I'll read the link you posted, and thank you!

[Dandy Dave]

OK, here's the latest update.

I picked up the car from the mechanic that couldn't fix it, and here is what I noticed. The valves are now making a lot of noise. Not just that, but when I went to drive it home, I found that it doesn't work as good as it did before I took it to him! After I shifted into 3rd gear, I had to floor the gas pedal just to get it to 'slowly' pick up speed. Also, when I go to start it, it's like the started locks up for an instand, but then finally starts the car. I was hoping that the battery just needed charged, but after I got home, after about 2 hours (the engine had cooled down), the starter did the same thing. CAN ADJUSTING THE VALVES CAUSE THE ENGINE TO BE TOO TIGHT? Well anyways, I also noticed that during the drive home, the turn signals didn't work. Well, when I got home, I found that there was an open 15 amp fuse. I am thinking that he might have given the car a jump with a 12 volt battery, and the blinkers might have been on when he did this. Don't know if this would cause this or not. (I had noticed that last year that there was a hole in the cover that covers the transmission clutch assembly and fly wheel, but I never could understand why someone had cut an opening in the underside of this cover. Now I believe I do.) It appears that the reason why someone (the previous owner) had cut this hole was evidently the rear main seal is leaking oil, so they put this opening there to drain the oil, so it wouldn't interfere with the clutch assembly. Does this make sense? I noticed that I have an oil leak, and it is dripping out of this opening that was cut in this cover. I'm not talking about a few drops, but a pretty good sized area about the size of a frisbee. One more thing I ahd noticed was that when the front seat is adjusted anywhere but all the way back, the passenger side rocks like a rocking chair. I moved it around a bit, and I may have taken care of THAT problem, but only time will tell.

I drove the car to the other mechanic, and the first thing he did (while the car was running) was to cover the tail pipe, feel it as well as listen to it. He told me the exhaust was too hot. He didn't think that the entire engine needed to be rebuilt, and he said it sounded like half the valves were too tight, while the other half were too loose. Go figure..... He said that he was really swamped right now, and to give him a call in about a month. Only time will tell, as far as what he will find. All I know is I spent $550 for all the "work" that was done, and the car doesn't run as good as it did when I took it to him.

I think I'll have another one of those bad dreams again tonight, to celebrate the car coming home. Well, at least I got an oil change!

How was your day today?

Starter problem, It could be that adjusting the valves on some cylinders has raized the compression slightly, or if the timing was adjusted, it is to far advanced and causing the starter to work harder.

"CAN ADJUSTING THE VALVES CAUSE THE ENGINE TO BE TOO TIGHT? "

As a general rule, No. If the valves have not been changed and have some wear, they should be loose enough to not bind up. The clatter is from the valves that he Tried to loosen.

"(I had noticed that last year that there was a hole in the cover that covers the transmission clutch assembly and fly wheel, but I never could understand why someone had cut an opening in the underside of this cover. Now I believe I do.) It appears that the reason why someone (the previous owner) had cut this hole was evidently the rear main seal is leaking oil, so they put this opening there to drain the oil, so it wouldn't interfere with the clutch assembly. Does this make sense?"

Yes, Sounds like you also need a rear main seal installed also. Dandy Dave!

[Guest bofusmosby]

Dave

Does he engine have to be pulled to replace the rear main seal?

[Guest]

Dave

Does he engine have to be pulled to replace the rear main seal?

Jim, no he doesn't but if I were doing the job I would. Changing the rope seal in the cap is one thing, but the other half in the block with the crank in there can be tricky because you can't see and properly clean the groove that the upper portion of the rope seal goes into. You also cannot set the rope seal in the groove either. The proper way to do that job is to have the crankshaft out of there so you can clean and use a special tool to push the seal down in place and cut it's exposed ends off. Now I do have a another special tool to do the job that pulls the rope around the crank so you can do it in the car, but it's really not the correct way to seat that seal properly.

My advise is to not worry and lay low about doing/thinking about anything until your new guy has a look and makes his recommendations. There is one thing that you should remind your new/old mechanic is that he should be grinding your intake valves at thirty degrees instead of the usual forty five on many cars---this is also true of almost all Real Pontiac V-8's for those people who want to know.

So, hang loose and relax.

Don