Avanti Rescue

[SeventhSon]

Ah, I knew if I posted that I wanted to delete the heat riser I might get some informative replies. Maybe I should re-think that (I was trying to save the $65 for a new unit), and I probably will go ahead and order one from Studebaker International in the coming weeks - probably best to put the car back to the way the engineers designed it. Especially after reading that Wikipedia article that was mentioned above (thanks rocktown and Roger).

Yes, Bleach, I will post pics of those NOS manifolds tonight when I get home.

[Guest Warehousebroker]

Chris, I may have my old riser unit which i turned into a spacer if you want it. My research indicated it was installed to enhance motor warm up forcing the intake manifold to heat up quickly which in turn caused the choke to open. I installed an electric choke so i made a spacer out of mine and with the R3 manifold I don't need it. Also, I have an engine hoist you may use to install those engine mounts if you'd like, let me know.

[SeventhSon]

Man, I can't bear to hear the words "engine hoist" with this car. I hope I can loosen the transmission mount bolts, unbolt the old rubber motor mounts, and jack the engine up just enough to slip the old ones out and the new ones in. I remember doing that with Dad's Hawk, hope it'll work the same with the Avanti. I'll probably just get a new heat riser and stick it on there, just so it's all original. First though, a call to Dave Thibeault is warranted, for his thoughts on it. I have to talk to him anyway about getting new wheels and exhaust - maybe I can order that stuff and pick it up at the York meet. Thanks, I may be contacting you about that heat riser spacer!

[SeventhSon]

Here are the NOS manifolds. Sweet, eh? I just hope I can get the old ones off without resorting to the engine hoist my brother Brian has. The thought has crossed my mind a few times in the last few days - I can't bear the thought of pulling this heavy ass motor, though.

[SeventhSon]

I contacted Nimesh Solanki the other night about the fuel return line and asked him if that tiny little line was original. He said it was, 1/8 inch from the factory and having it keeps the engine from vapor lock and also provides pressure relief. I read something about that early on in unimogjohn's "Avanti Refresh" thread, someone said something about when the car is at W.O.T. (wide open throttle) the fuel pump has to have pressure relief or there will be power loss. And we can't have that, can we? So, I stopped by the store tonight and picked up a roll of 3/16" tubing, 25 feet long, with which to construct a new fuel return line since mine is toast.

I also picked up a quart of B&M Trick Shift (regular, NOT synthetic) to put in the supercharger. Nimesh told me a few weeks ago to use that - it's better than the usual F type fluid.

[Scotts_DG8]

Chris,

First I wanted to pass along that I've been following along since your first post and think that you've got the makings of a nice ride. You might think too at times that you have your hands full but it's nothing more that one step/task followed by another and before you know it you'll stand back and admire what you've accomplished. Great job so far. Now as far as the mounts go, I've replace motor mounts numerous times with nothing but a floor jack, a piece of 2 x 4 and raising it from the flat part of the oil pan and I would have to believe that it would work without issue for you too. And I should also point out that in each of those cases I did not remove the trans mount but I guess it couldn't hurt. I wish you luck and will be watching and waiting for the payoff when you can take it out for its first cruise. Scott...

[SeventhSon]

Finally, a couple of things I would like to accomplish this weekend (after I replace a garage door opener). The motor mounts, and freeze plugs would be nice to have done by Sunday night.

Also, since I was going to clean up the water jackets, I thought I would get a new water pump to install when (and if) I ever get to the topside of this car.

[SeventhSon]

Scott - thanks for your encouragement and reading about what I'm doing. It means a lot to have folks like you providing moral support, because as you probably know, it can be daunting at times. I sure hope those motor mounts go in "easy". Thanks again for your comments!

[HotWheels]

Chris,

I'm really enjoying following your restoration! For what its worth, when I restored my 59 Buick I had the exhaust manifolds coated with Jet-Hot Ceramic Coatings in the original cast gray color. The coating is designed to reduce under-hood temperatures extending the life of neighboring components, they will also look better and not rust. Before the restoration the engine bay would get so hot after a drive that you almost had to use a cloth to open the hood...no longer the case, and they still look like new. I have several pictures of the coated manifolds on my restoration website.

Thanks again for sharing the progress on you Avanti

[SeventhSon]

Thanks Tom - I learn something new every day from folks like you. I hadn't heard of the Jet Hot coating before - I'll check out your restoration site. Thanks for writing! P.S. I love the '59 Buick - great car!

[Guest Warehousebroker]

Chris, Dad and I replaced more than one set of motor mounts with, believe it or not, a bumper jack! However we found the preferred method by far was to take the old block and tackle engine hoist we rigged up between a couple of trees in Davidsonville and grab the engine by the water manifold and yank it up and slip those mounts out and in, in a jiffy. So, I was simply offering to let you use the engine hoist to lift the front of the engine enough to replace those mounts. However, you certainly can do it the way you plan. Just sayin....

[Roger Zimmermann]

Here are the NOS manifolds.

Nice looking parts! I noticed that LH & RH are the same part, except for the length of the bolts at the outlet. This make sense as the crossover pipe coming from the the LH side was routed in front of the engine on cars with one exhaust pipe, according to pictures from an older Stude engine.

All that to say that I did wrongly the LH exhaust manifold mirror-like on my model...as I had only a picture of the RH side; I imagined that the outlet would point towards the rear, like the other one. I will let it that way!

[SeventhSon]

Thanks Roger - you have that eye for detail and noticed that. I was sort of alarmed when I took the manifolds out of the box, I thought one of them was wrong. A quick trip to the garage laid my concerns to rest - the parts match. Now, if I could just get the old ones off....

[r1lark]

Chris, good move on getting NOS exhaust manifolds. Was going to suggest that, but then noticed you had a line on some used ones from your brother. They are still very reasonable in price, but about 10 or 15 years ago the prices were almost give-away! Squirelled away a couple of pairs for future projects.

When you put the new manifolds on, use stainless capscrews and stainless internal tooth lock washers. You can get these at any decent sized industrial fastener supplier (watch out for hardware store stainless fasteners, some are fine and some are sub-standard Asian junk). Whoever takes the manifolds off 20 years down the road will thank you!

Keep plugging away, you will be driving by this spring! Me, I'm going to try to get the vent window frames back together today for my '54 Stude 4-door sedan, so I can finish getting the new side glass in the car.

Paul

[SeventhSon]

Brian - that's funny about the bumper jack. You jogged my memory on that one, I do remember you guys doing that. I remember that old block and tackle too - we pulled the engine out of Jean and Hal's '67 Caprice with that - hooked up to an aluminum extension ladder! In the barn - cold as the Arctic!

I'll let you know about that hoist - I might take you up on that heat riser spacer also. I was reading this article (I can post the link later) by a man with the last name Erb. Not sure if he's related to John Erb or not, but he talks about the heat riser being unnecessary. If anyone is interested they can google "Dodge Pilothouse heat riser debunked" That will probably get you there until I can link the article.

[SeventhSon]

Paul - thanks for the info. I'll look into the stainless steel nuts and washers - I was thinking about using the brass nuts that came with the flange repair kit (which I won't be needing now!). Stainless is always better, I'm sure.

[r1lark]

Chris,

The brass nuts are fine for the headpipes - that way if they strip out, the nut is sacrificed but the stud is not damaged.

What I was referring to as far as the stainless capscrews was for bolting the exhaust manifolds to the heads.

[SeventhSon]

Oh, sorry, didn't realize that's what you meant. I hadn't thought of that - I definitely will search those out because nobody should have to go through what I have been to get those bolts out! Thanks for the info Paul.

[SeventhSon]

Phew! What a weekend! I thought I would be able to devote most of the two days to the Avanti but the garage door opener that started to act up early in the week intruded on my fun for the weekend. So, I spent most of Saturday installing a new unit, only to have an issue with the new opener motor. So, I put all the tools away and called it a day - didn't even touch the Avanti. A new day brought a new perspective and plan, off to Sears I went and got a new motor assembly. I threw that in and we were in business.

After a break for lunch and a visit to The Home Depot I finally got to work on the Avanti. I removed the transmission mount nuts so as not to put any stress on the mount when I jacked up the motor to remove the motor mounts. I removed the lower nut on the left side motor mount, then tried to remove the upper nut. No dice. The whole motor mount was turning. After a while of that fun I decided to jack up that side of the motor and work on getting the exhaust manifold off.

Since the motor was jacked up on the left side I was able to gain just enough access to the one manifold bolt I couldn't get to the other day. I got that one out! One left to go - I continued grinding on that until the bolt head was gone. Then I grabbed a giant digging bar and worked the manifold loose (there were 2 studs, 1 broken off and the other ground off still holding on). After some time wrestling with it the manifold finally cried "Uncle" (not really, just a figure of speech).

I took what she would give me and was happy to get that - the tiny victories these days seem like huge wins at this point.

[Bleach]

Those new manifolds will finally have a new home to go to, after you finish removing whats left of the bolts.

Thanks for posting photos of the new manifolds. They really look nice.

[Roger Zimmermann]

...And don't throw away the old manifolds as long as they are not broken, you never know!

[SeventhSon]

Thanks Bleach, I'm looking forward to the day I can bolt those manifolds on. The goalpost seems to be moving further away though! One step at a time...

Roger, you're right, I can never envision using those manifolds again, but you never know!

[SeventhSon]

Tiny steps, tiny steps. One night, one broken off bolt comes out. Now I know why guys tear cars down to the frame and build back up. Just wreck all the nuts and bolts out, fix the rust, paint and start rebuilding. I never expected to be bogged down with rusty bolts putting up such a fight, but I am. As I said earlier today, the goalpost seems to be moving further away. That's OK though, I'll just revise the plan - make adjustments. Hope I can keep the goal in sight.

Bolt extractors, what can I say. I've bought several in the last couple of weeks, most of which have been of little use. Two stand out though, the Grip-Tite sockets and the Craftsman Stud Extractor I bought today just for that broken off bolt at the rear of the left side exhaust manifold. That worked pretty well, gripped the stud and brought it out. Of course, now it won't let go of the stud - I'll have to get that stud out before I can use it on the other couple of broken off bolts I have.

I had my doubts about the Grip-Tite sockets, but they came through. I was surprised, they grabbed the worn out bolt heads and brought most out. A couple were (are) too worn down, so I get to have fun grinding those down. Ah well, I'll just look forward to the day when I can start putting new bolts back in.

[dalef62]

If that Craftsman stud extractor is like mine, just drive the "drive" part out of the extractor from the side you show in the second picture and the whole thing will fall apart. The drive part is just held in the tool with a pressure fit ball similair to the ball to hold the sockets to the ratchet and extentions.

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

Nope a better way to go.Just inatall the stude in the vise and back off the stud extractor

works every time

Vern

[John Byrd]

Hey Chris, after reading your stud-pulling post, I just remembered something about our Avanti. I had a new exhaust system put on a while before we sold it, and after a couple of weeks, went back to get him to check the gasket or ??/ between the head pipe and manifold since it had a small leak-sounding noise. I drove it rarely for the next couple of months, then we sold it. The gentleman we sold it to called later and asked about a couple of heads I still had and said it was not a leak at the fitting, but the head was cracked at the rear stud !! Never knew or heard of that , but check around before you re-assemble, (and my manifolds were not fooled with except to attach the pipe), John

[SeventhSon]

Thanks Dale and Vern, I'll take a close look at that tonight. I didn't realize the unit may come apart. I would put it in a vise, but I don't have one! Or any place to affix one! They are handy to have around though...

John, I hope yours was an isolated case! I'll take a look at both heads before putting the manifolds on, even though I probably wouldn't be able to see a hairline crack.

[jay144]

I just read all 11 pages of this thread. I am inspired. You are doing a fantastic job documenting your restoration!! I shall be an avid follower.

I must say, though, DON'T USE FRAM OIL FLILTERS!!! They are crap. I would recommend Purolator Pure 1, Motorcraft (made by Purolator) or Wix, or some similar well made brand.

I may have to come out of retirement and get a part time job. I want to get another old car to fix up. Haven't had an old one since 2004, when I sold my '67 Lincoln Continental.

[John Byrd]

Chris, you may in fact be able to see cracks if they are there. Clean the areas by wiping with a dry or barely dampened rag, then wipe lightly with a rag or towel with a bit of alcohol on it. After that, fluff some fine white powder like cornstarch or baby powder on the areas. Wait a few minutes (while watching), and if it's cracked, the oil/grease/whatever trapped in the crack will show by staining the white powder- -it works. Yeah, hope mine was an isolated case too, but sure hated not realizing it before the folks bought our car, I'd have fixed it before advertising it. I would have bet money that like times in the past on other cars, it was just a gasket. Good luck, John

[SeventhSon]

Thanks for checking out what I'm doing Jay, it means a lot to know people are reading and taking an interest. Someone else, I think it was "straightshooter" said not to use Fram filters. That Fram filter was a gift from my friend John (known on here as unimogjohn), as a sort of "welcome to the Avanti club" gift. After I use them I was thinking about getting the filters from Studebaker International for about 10 bucks that are like original. Just to support SI. But I'm not sure if they are any good - made by AC? Not sure. I'll check them out, for sure. Thanks again for checking in Jay.

John, I'll try that procedure to check for cracks. If I find anything you'll hear my scream all the way in Hawaii! Thanks.

[Guest Backyardmechanic]

Chris;

Try vise grips to hold the stud while backing off the tool.

Vern

[SeventhSon]

Thanks Vern, I'll try that tonight. It should work - I hope.

[SeventhSon]

Well Dale, I guess my stud extractor was built different from yours. It has (or had) a thin rubber ring holding it together (must be the Chinese way of doing things). No pressure ball like the ratchet/socket combo - just a flimsy rubber ring that ripped apart when I gave it a knock with a drift pin and hammer. I'll just drop by Sears tomorrow and trade it for a new one - they still warranty their tools for life, hmmm?

So tonight, after I got tired of breathing grinding dust from grinding on one of the manifold bolts, I decided to climb underneath the car and have a look at the last remaining bolt on the manifold. I had tried to remove it from the topside, but couldn't get anything to grip it. From underneath I saw there was a bit of grease on the bolt head so I got a small wire brush and cleaned it up. Then I noticed I had a clear shot at the bolt from the gap in between the frame and inner fender. I grabbed a ratchet and extensions and, since I couldn't get a socket to grab it, I got the bolt extractor set. The same one I was bad mouthing the other night. It must have taken offense, because it grabbed the bolt. I thought, "Hmmm...this feels like it might take hold here." I grabbed the 2 foot Pipe 'O Leverage, slid it over the ratchet handle, and exerted pressure. The bolt turned! All the way out! The extractor socket grabbed so tight I had to bang on the bolt to get it loose.

So, I take back what I said - the bolt extractor is redeemed.

[SeventhSon]

The Battle of the Exhaust Manifolds continues. I spent 15 minutes at lunch finishing up grinding on the last bolt head, then grabbed the giant pry bar (digging bar) and loosened the manifold off the studs (one broken off, one ground off). The manifold came loose but the breather tube was holding everything in place. So tonight I removed that (which I had just put back on when I did the oil pan) and the manifold fell off. Yay!

Then I turned to removing the bolt studs with my new stud extractor I acquired today in exchange for the broken one. That's when things got ugly. Yep, I wrung both of them off. Sigh. Honestly, I'm surprised I didn't wring more of the bolts off, tight as they were. Now I get to drill them out - thanks to Providence they weren't on the other side, with the steering box in the way. The fun continues...

I called Dave Thibeault yesterday to ask about wheels and an exhaust system. I almost forgot to ask him about deleting the heat riser. He said that was a good idea, they cause a lot of trouble. So, that was a good bit of news - I asked if he had a spacer to fill in for the heat riser and he said he makes them just for that purpose. So, I ordered one of those and a complete stainless steel exhaust system. I'll hold off on the wheels for a few weeks - if I don't make some progress on getting this car back together I won't need 'em!

[Guest Warehousebroker]

Chris, is there any way you can heat those up before you try and extract? Are you going to use an "easy out" or comparable tool to remove the bolts? You should use a punch to center your drill bit as much as possible. I have had some problems not doing that in similar situations. I would try and heat the top and side of the area where the stud is implanted then attempt the extraction. Heat is your best friend in these situations, at least in my opinion. If you can use an easy out and get the stud out without harming the threads you will save some steps. Just sayin.... Brian

[Guest stude8]

I have to agree with the previous post that Acetylene torch heat application on these frozen bolts is imperative to get them loosened. The heat (dull red!) causes the expansion of the threads that fractures the rust and corrosion bonds.

Another step is to sudden chill the bolt after heating like with a CO2 fire extinguisher or a cold water soaked rag to give it a shrink event after the heat expansion. Those bolts after all these years of exhaust heating and cooling are annealed and softened less than original hardness factor and prone to twisting off under the torque stress being applied.

Stude8

[SeventhSon]

Brian, I'm going to try some heat. First, I have to try to get a hole drilled in the old bolt studs, but they are extremely hard and I'm working with a 90 degree drill setup. I do have some easy out type of extractors - gotta get the holes drilled though. Tight spot and super hard material, dunno, might end up pulling the head off! Or, crating the whole motor and sending it to Nimesh!

Tried doing some stuff last night but I have a head cold taking hold so I'm dragging right now. Might leave those exhaust bolts for another time and concentrate on the motor mounts (which are putting up their own stout fight) and freeze plugs.

[SeventhSon]

Stude8, thanks for the tips. I'll try the heat first - I was watching a YouTube video last night where a guy welded a washer, then a nut onto a broken off bolt and was able to bring it out. I don't have a welder (or torch for that matter!) so I'll have to work that out, possibly get someone to come by and work on it.

[unimogjohn]

Chris, remember, just concentrate on a few things at a time. No sense trying to eat the entire elephant. And I would get the beast running and driving before you make any decision to pull the motor. When you pull the motor then you might as well do the clutch and transmission, and then it never ends. Been there, done that.

[r1lark]

And I would get the beast running and driving before you make any decision to pull the motor. When you pull the motor then you might as well do the clutch and transmission, and then it never ends. Been there, done that.

Amen to that, John! How many times have we seen a decent looking, decent running old car turn into a stalled 'full blown' restoration effort -- "oh, we will just pull the engine to stop the oil leaks", or "oh, just a quick paint job, nothing more".

It's happened to me more times than I want to admit:rolleyes: