Car died, had to have it towed. Embarassing! But finally figured out the cause. Question.

[Guest asinger]

Last Thursday was a gorgeous day and I took the old car out for a ride with my wife (the car is a 1967 Mercury Park Lane convertible). It went well until it wouldn't start. I saw oil on the coil wire going to the distributor.

Two asides: last year my old coil died (it was the OLD coil) and I replaced it with an MSD Blaster 2 coil. No problems until a couple of months ago when I saw oil on top of the engine. I had no clue where it was coming from.

ALSO, last month I replaced the points with a Pertronix Ignitor II, after much research and talking to people about it (and a very helpful thread I started here). After some retuning, the car was running awesomely with NO KNOCKING AND PINGING! FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER! And it's been doing GREAT! Nice acceleration, especially up hills.

Until last Thursday. After the car wouldn't start, I saw the oil on the high voltage plug and realized the coil was leaking oil. I dried it off and replugged it in and it started and ran fine. I checked online and discovered a lot of complaints about MSD coils leaking oil. I figured mine was okay for the time being. (idiot)

Later that day I picked up my 2 1/2 year old daughter from day care in the car. On the way home (10 minutes away), the car died and absolutely would not start. No Matter What. I had to have it towed.

I exchanged the coil (Advance Auto Parts took it back as defective) and traded for an Accel coil. If MSD leaks, I didn't want another one that could leak.

Finally, after a lot of needless troubleshooting, and figuring it could be the Ignitor II at fault, I put the points back in and . . .

It still wouldn't fire. After a lot more needless troubleshooting, I realized I had the distributor low voltage wire going to coil positive when it should have been negative (idiot!) and I didn't adjust the points right (idiot!) so the points never were actually closing.

Well, I put the wire in the right place and adjusted the points right and son of a gun, it started right up.

And it runs now. Just fine.

Deduction: It's the Ignitor II at fault. I did a google search and found out the Ignitor II fails frequently, apparently. But why, nobody said.

So here's the question.

Did the coil leaking (and possibly overheating) cause premature Ignitor II failure? Or did the Ignitor II somehow cause the MSD coil to fail and start leaking oil? According to a tech at Pertronix I spoke with when I bought the Ignitor II the MSD coil would work with the Ignitor II. Any stock coil works with the Ignitor II.

Because I really did like the performance of the engine with the Ignitor II I'd like to replace it with a new one, but I'm wondering where the original fault occured. Did the coil fail first? Or the Ignitor II?

[TexRiv_63]

I have never used the Pertronix conversions, a lot of people swear by them but I have also heard a lot of stories involving sudden failure. I still think that the original point system is that way to go IF all the parts are new and it is maintained properly. I can't help with what caused what but are you sure the coil resistor is working properly? Some cars had a special section of wire with the resistor in it and some had an actual resistor unit mounted on the firewall, all designed to drop the 12 volt battery power down to 6 volts for the coli and points. If the resistor is not working it could have fried your coil, check it out.

[Guest asinger]

Thanks for the reply. I know what you're talking about, with a resistor, and this particular model and engine did not include it. I also checked the coil with meter (secondaries and primaries) and found it to be in spec. The main problem throughout the whole experience was lack of spark. Much of the time I assumed it was the coil and was ready to replace it until I finally tested it. I also had a spare backup coil on loan and it tested the same way.

If I were to decide to keep the point system, then I would definitely have to replace them. They're old and worn, but they do work. And the dwell would have to be properly adjusted, and maybe the weights and springs etc etc.

The car performed so much better with the Ignitor II that I'd like to replace it.

[D Yaros]

I too have given a lot of thought to Petronix type ignition systems. I read all I can about them. Based on my research, the best advice seems to be to carry around a "real distributor and/or points" at all times!

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

The Pertronix Ignitors all come with do's and don't's specifically covered in the instructions. If they are not followed explicitly trouble will ensue. It is almost guaranteed that the system will fail if there is any shaft wobble in the distributor, though I don't recall a recommendation that the distributor should be checked for wobble before installing any Pertronix Ignitor. Also unless going into a car with a big block Ford engine (390, 428, 429, 460) it is also wise to buy their coil which is a bit hotter than found with most O.E. coils other than Ford.

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

I've been using my OEM coil with my Ignitor and haven't had any problems since installing it a few years ago... The car runs better then ever too.

[Guest brh]

Installed mine so long ago I can't remember when I did it. I did something wrong and beat the daylights out of my first one, car ran fine. I was changing my cap when I noticed, peeled the top right off. Car always ran fine with it, very satisfied. I do carry spare points and condenser.

My guess is you had em both fail, in which order?? Don't know. I have never had a coil leak, had em go bad but never leak. Lack of oil in the coil may have caused it to overheat, which in turn didn't deliver the correct voltage, but this is a pure guess.

Edited October 19, 2011 by brh
More info (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

I don't see where the particular coil would make a difference, per se, as the Ignitor is only the switch for the coil, just as the points were. Getting a more defined "on" and "off" signal can make a difference, I suspect.

A stock coil should work fine in a stock engine environment, typically, but if it needs more spark energy, then the higher-output coils would be more appropriate. Spark plug condition, condition of the cap/rotor/plug wires can affect the minimul required voltage to fire the plug, plus things like "cylinder pressure" (not just mechanical compression ratio).

As mentioned, having the correct wire hooked to the correct terminals can be a key thing!

Thanks for the update!

NTX5467

[rick60]

Low coil resistance will damage an electronic module. it doesn't matter if it is a factory or aftermarket unit. The coil should be checked when replacing an ignition module. I have been using a Pertronix unit on my Ford. I also installed a high output coil. The car starts faster, has more power and smoother idle. MPG also increased. I'm happy with the unit.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Years ago, I installed a Pertronix ignition system on my '56 Cadillac Biarritz. This car was freshly restored and I had some issues with the drivability. After thinking it was vapor lock, a wise man found that the intake manifold was warped. After correcting the manifold, the car ran well but still had an hesitation. As I could live with that, I did nothing more.

This year, the first drive of the car was like it was some years ago with the warped intake manifold: lot of hesitation right after idle. Once the RPM were high enough, the car ran well, but it was a nightmare after each stop to get some speed.

Thinking that the carbs were maybe out of adjustement, I asked Daytona Parts for an advise and I got an interesting response. Among the recommendations, it was mentioned that if I ever installed a Pertronix ignition system, some failed units had a similar symptom as the one I described.

Some days later, I installed the regular points and a new coil: the engine never ran that well!

Pertronix = never again.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Roger Zimmermann
spelling (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

After years of seeing recommendations for the Pertronix electronic ignition conversion from a stock contact points ignition system . . . now we're seeing comments of the problems people have had with them. Granted, some could be "user problems", but it appears many might not be.

I also am aware that Pertronix has several different versions of their conversion kit. From the earlier/basic unit to two much more (progressively) sophisticated models of recent vintage.

Therefore, it might be appropriate to inquire as to which OTHER electronic ignition conversion systems others have used with good success. Additionally, if you installed a Pertronix kit and it worked AND HAS worked well for you, which model was it?

For example, ACCEL has a kit whose electronics seem to mimic Chrysler's OEM unit from the 1970s. Chrysler has their Mopar Perf kits. Mallory used to have a Uni-Lite system which used a shutter wheel and LED for the "switch". Some were complete drop-in distributors and others were "modify" kits.

For those with electronic ignition kits, what kind/type of voltage regulator is on your vehicle?

Just curious . . .

NTX5467

[D Yaros]

Everything I read, here and on a lot of other fora, as well as what I have seen on extended auto tours, going electronic is not the way to go?

[Guest asinger]

Further updates on the Ignitor II/leaking coil issue.

As mentioned, I put the points back in and installed a new Accel coil, and after gapping the points the right way (and wiring it correctly), it started right up. I ordered a replacement Ignitor II.

The next day I drove the car 20 miles to a car show and the difference between points and Ignitor II was immediate. The car had awful performance, knocking and pinging the entire way. Going up hills was near impossible. At the show I spoke to a knowledgeable acquaintance who knows quite a bit about HEI systems and said the coil had gotten hot, started leaking, caused an internal short, and blew out the Ignitor. So, I was satisfied with that assessment.

My replacement Ignitor II arrived and I installed it, no problems, except the MSD coil had stronger spark than the Accel, so, I am planning to replace the Accel coil with the proper Pertronix unit as is prescribed.

Today at a car show I spoke with a guy who installed an HEI system in his car, and I told him about my performance issues. He said the spark plugs need to be regapped at .045. He said that once he regapped his plugs, his car ran just as it was supposed to, instead of some sluggishness that I am experiencing right now.

So, that's next.

I wonder, too, about Ignitor II issues people have had. I have read complaints online about them. So, were they defective units? User error? Improper coils? Nobody ever seems to say. Most of what you read is this: My POS Ignitor II crapped out on me and I put the points back in and car runs fine now. And that's all they say. What happened?

[Owen_Dyneto]

The pinging or spark knock is probably not related to the changes you made, just an indication of incorrect ignition timing.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Which engine does that '67 Park Lane have in it and does it have a 2bbl or a 4bbl carburetor? I'm going to take a wild guess on the oil on top of the engine and suggest you may have a bad PCV valve and oily vapors are being forced into the breather and subsequently migrating all over the place. If your oil consumption seems high you have a bad PCV. valve.

If you are having timing issues you may need to verify that your timing chain has not stretched, jumped a gear tooth, or the cam gear hasn't shed its nylon tooth coating (the latter if recently occurring will be evidence by chunks of plastic coming out of the pan when you change oil).

Edited October 23, 2011 by Jim_Edwards (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

I built and drove a number of FE Ford powered cars back in the day, all with stock ignition systems, and as long as proper mainteneance was observed they ran great. The primary purpose of an electronic ignition is to produce a stronger spark and have longer reliability than points - it is not designed to overcome mechanical or electrical problems although it might help mask some symptoms a little. Before going back to the Pertronix I would make sure everything else on the motor is up to spec:

• Compression
  
• Distributor Spark advance and timing adjustment
  
• Carburetor function and adjustment
  
• All primary and secondary wiring correct
  
• Correct spark plug type and heat range
  
• Using premium gas only
  

Get the engine running right without the Pertronix first, then if you still think you need it put it on, go ahead- just my $.02

[wmsue]

I agree with Don.

About 2 years ago I finally got to the place of starting the engine in my stored Buick. I had replaced so many parts in the prior years as time and money permitted that when the engine stumbled and hesitated after starting, I was overwhelmed by what could be wrong. I relied on a lot of help from fellow ACAA members to figure it all out.

I reinstalled the original points/cond as one of the first fixes as recommended by many.

It's almost to the point where I'll try the Petronix system again. Probably this summer when I can finally get the car back on the road for good and get a few tanks of clean high test gas through her I'll put the system back in her for a try.

Bill

[jim43]

What I don't like about the electronic ignitions is that when they fail they are totally dead with nothing apparent wrong. With old fashioned points a roadside fix can often be accomplished with perhaps a spare distributer tune up set and a screwdriver. Sometimes not even that much is needed.

[D Yaros]

... and electronic ignitions seem to fail far more often than the standard points system, from all I read and see.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Two of the major issues with conversion electronic ignitions such as the Pertronix Ignitors lie in the age old problem of folks not fully reading the installation instructions; and the real biggie a distributor that has/had issues before the installation. No question that points are far more forgiving of a virtually worn out distributor than the electronic modules.

Virtually all domestically produced vehicles have had electronic ignition systems in one form or another since the mid to late 1970s and just like the conversion systems the suckers fail and when they do it's without warning. The engine compartment of virtually all cars produced since WWII represent an extremely hostile environment for electronic components of any nature and particularly those which are produced by the lowest bidder and are produced without the Military grade components needed to function with the least possible chance of failure. What we get is consumer grade electronics in a Military level environment and that means failures.