Luv2Wrench Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) Houston, we have a problem! Top end of connecting rod is .683" too wide to fit into piston. I'm not 100% sure which to change to make it fit. I'm leaning towards the connecting rod since it is cast iron and stronger than the aluminum. I could try to take some of both but I'm hesitant to change the piston as it was likely engineered to use the least amount of material possible. Thoughts anyone? Edited January 14 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) What is the pedigree of these parts, did you purchase them or did they come with the car? The rod appears to be forged, is it an original Metz rod, or something else? The piston looks like an aftermarket aluminum design, much lighter than the original cast iron, which is a good thing as long as it fits your finished bore size and the top of the piston sits at the correct height in the bore when at TDC. This might be a good time to slow down, step back and consult an antique engine builder and other members who have rebuilt Metz engines in the past. Edited January 14 by cudaman (see edit history) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 (edited) 32 minutes ago, cudaman said: What is the pedigree of these parts, did you purchase them or did they come with the car? The rod appears to be forged, is it an original Metz rod, or something else? The piston looks like an aftermarket aluminum design, much lighter than the original cast iron, which is a good thing as long as it fits your finished bore size and the top of the piston sits at the correct height in the bore when at TDC. This might be a good time to slow down, step back and consult an antique engine builder and other members who have rebuilt Metz engines in the past. The connecting rod is the original Metz rod. The pistons are Model T aluminum pistons that I purchased. I can't use Model T connecting rods because the Metz crankshaft is too narrow for the bottom end of the connecting rod. Any by too narrow I mean there isn't enough meat to machine off, that was a path that was looked at. The block was sleeved and honed for 2.5 thou clearance with the aluminum pistons. The Metz piston's wrist pin sits 70 thou lower in the piston than the aluminum pistons so it is 70 thou further away from hitting the cylinder head. I don't know of anyone else that has rebuilt a Metz engine other than sending it off. You and this forum are my antique engine builder. I took one of the extra connecting rods and milled it to fit with 25 thou on each side. You're right it is forged and not cast (well.. it certainly didn't machine like cast iron). I think this is the correct way to go. Edited January 14 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) Sounds like you've chosen the approach to getting the aluminum Model T pistons to work with the Metz rods. I guess the next thing to do would be to mock up one piston/rod assembly on your crank installed in the block and make sure that the top of the piston is where you want it at TDC. Then calculate the resulting compression ratio using your head gasket thickness and combustion chamber volume. Based on what I have read in the past, a Model T head gasket will work on a Metz with slight modifications. An old story is that Model T hot rodders would install a Metz head on their Model T engines to boost the compression ratio because the Metz chamber volume is smaller than a Model T. Rule of thumb is that the stock Babbitt bottom end on a Model T is good up to a compression ratio of 6 to 1 or so, although I'm sure some have pushed the limits. Do you have a set of the super-long reach spark plugs to fit the Metz head? If I recall a Champion 32 has the correct reach. A Spltdorf P141 will also fit. Edited January 14 by cudaman (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 I think all connecting rods were forged. Cast iron would be much too brittle. In any case, the conventional shape of a connecting rod was determined by the need to remove it from a forging die. For maximum strength the thickest portion should be in the middle, not at the end (according to PM Heldt). Cast steel hadn't been invented, or at least perfected, in 1913. It doesn't really become a major manufacturing technique until after WWII. The aluminum connecting rods used by Franklin and others in the 20s and 30s were forged. I'd alter the rods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 14 Author Share Posted January 14 I do not have the extra, extra long reach as pictured in your post. I have Champion 34 which are longer than the 25 but not quite as long as the 32. Hopefully these will do and I'll find the proper length one later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Well the deed is done. I have a pile of chips around the mill and pistons in the block! This was another learning experience and we'll find out later on if it was a positive one or a negative one. That wasn't all the mill action. This morning I put the valves in the ER-40 collet block and milled 80 thou off. I cleaned it up on the grinder, belt sander and buffing wheel. I'm happy with how they turned out. I very much appreciate the prompt responses and detailed information. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 If I recall, standard (not super duty) Pontiac V8s had cast nodular iron connecting rods in the '60s and '70s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Lots of good Metz stuff in this thread if you haven't already seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 Just now, cudaman said: Lots of good Metz stuff in this thread if you haven't already seen it. Phil started his restoration a few months before I bought my parts. I've read that thread quite a bit and Phil has been very helpful with my Metz over the years. I'm very appreciate of people that take the extra time to document their process. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 There is an original Metz Price List of Parts booklet currently for sale in the HCCA classifieds. https://hcca.org/acadp_listings/books-wheels-radiator/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 15 Author Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, cudaman said: There is an original Metz Price List of Parts booklet currently for sale in the HCCA classifieds. https://hcca.org/acadp_listings/books-wheels-radiator/ I have a scan of that but it isn't very good quality. I'll try to buy that one, thanks! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 (edited) Got the engine in the frame! As usual there was another problem. I test fit the radiator and realized that the radiator is made to fit the cylinder head and, of course, I'm using a different cylinder head as the original head had a chunk missing from the water outlet. The head I had installed is about 600 units newer according to the serial numbers. It has a separate water outlet that sits between the head and the radiator. Problem number 1 is that sticks out further than the original head so there's not enough room. While that might be corrected problem number 2 is worse. The castings for the heads are slightly different and the water outlet is offset (left to right) by nearly 2". As such, the original radiator connected to the newer head sits 2" left of center. Of course in a car this old the radiator is the front of the car and not sitting behind a fake radiator grill so that doesn't work. The solution was to fix the original head and that's what I did. I chose to do the repair by using JB Weld Steel Stick around a copper wire mesh. I've done this repair on two of my machine tools and it has more than stood the test of time. Hopefully it will work the same way on the cylinder head. Original cylinder head: Drilled holes into the edges (about 1/2" deep) and ran 12 gauge copper into them. Copper soldered together and into head. This gives a very strong platform for the next step. JB Weld Steel Stick molded into place around the copper mesh. Painted and ready to install Edited January 20 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hursst Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Nice work, Jeff! Not only have you saved an original part for your car, but hopefully you can find another Metz owner for your other head and maybe make some $ or just help another Metz owner. Looking forward to photos of the engine in the chassis. Love to see the less-common cars like this. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 10 minutes ago, hursst said: Nice work, Jeff! Not only have you saved an original part for your car, but hopefully you can find another Metz owner for your other head and maybe make some $ or just help another Metz owner. Looking forward to photos of the engine in the chassis. Love to see the less-common cars like this. Oh right, I forgot that didn't I. Here's one with the other head. I'll update next week when it gets a bit warmer. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Everything was ready to start the Metz this Saturday. As usual, I tested for spark as part of my checklist... and nope. While I had bench-tested the magneto, and it was "fine" I remember thinking it could be a little hotter. The bench test involved a short ground wire from the spark plug to the bottom of the magneto, i.e., optimal conditions. When installed in the engine, the ground path is a bit longer, and unfortunately, the magneto wasn't strong enough. I remember enough of my EE courses to vaguely understand why, and I think it falls down to either the magnet charge or the condenser (or both, I guess). I ordered some grade 52 neodymium magnets and will attempt to recharge the magnets on the magneto. If that doesn't do the trick, then I'll look at replacing the condenser. I have a couple of spare Bosch DU4s that are in unknown condition, so I guess one option is testing the condensers in those. I'm hoping charging the magnets will do the trick. The great news is that most everything else leading up to the "no start" went very smoothly. The gas tank held gas, the carb held gas, and the radiator mostly held water. The radiator has one leak and possibly another. The one leak I can see will be fairly easy to fix. The radiator was a huge unknown. It was in very, very rough condition, and I was expecting to have to either completely rebuild it or build a new one. To have it hold water as well as it did was a big and very welcomed surprise. The radiator still has a long road ahead as it needs the "skin" replaced, but having it hold water offset the disappointment with the magneto. Magnetos are easier to repair than 110-year-old radiators!! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 What is your spark plug gap? The gap should be narrower for a magneto ignition, around 0.020" max. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, cudaman said: What is your spark plug gap? The gap should be narrower for a magneto ignition, around 0.020" max. Yes, with a feeler gauge 18 fits, 19 is tight and 20 doesn't fit. These are Champion 34s with two "gaps" so to speak. I assume that doesn't matter and they should be 18-20 each?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 I have dual ground strap Edison 13 plugs in my 1912 Flanders and made both gaps the same, 0.020. I couldn't find any period guidance that said to do otherwise, it seems to work fine. The point gap inside the magneto should be the same, 0.020 inch. I wonder if the Champion 34s having too short a reach could cause a problem, I would assume that the electrodes are recessed partway up the spark plug hole in the head. Hopefully someone will step forward and offer you a set of Champion 32s or similar longer reach plugs. I used to have some, but sold them years ago. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 (edited) A set of Champion 32s would be fantastic!! I got the neodymium magnets today and charged up the horseshoe magnets. Setting the horseshoe magnet on my welding table and then lifting it off was way too easy. They were really weak. After charging it takes more effort to remove from the table but they are still pretty easily removed. I have no experience with a properly charged magneto magnet so I'm not sure what it should feel like. I put them back on the magneto and there was a big difference. I could get a small blue spark with the spark plug laying on the welding table next to the magneto while I cranked it over by hand. It wasn't perfect though. I spun it over with the drill and quickly stopped because I could hear the safety gap sparking. I only had one spark plug attached so the safety gap was sparking in place of the others. From what I read on one of those links, you don't want to do that. I put the magnets back on the neodymium magnets and left them for the night. I'll put everything back together and give it another shot this weekend. With the Champion 34 the tip of the electrode is 0.100" inset from the surface of the head. The bottom of the plug itself is 0.220" inset. It looks like the longer 32 would stick out pas the surface of the head. There are some 32s on eBay right now but only one of the 3 (for $250) looks good. I think I'll see how it runs with the 34s before I start throwing more money around. Edited January 30 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Glad to hear that the magnet recharge made a difference. You were smart not to let the magneto continue to spark and use the safety gap, it might start sparking internally and damage the windings. I have heard that without a keeper, the magnets can lose some fresh charge just in the act of removing the magnets from the charger and installing them onto the magneto. Maybe a member with more magneto experience than you or I can chime in. Hopefully someone more reasonable will offer up some Champion 32 plugs for you. It doesn't sound like the 34s are all that much recessed in the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 I read the same thing about fresh charge on the magnets. I read that they had to be charged "on the magneto". I also read an article that said that was absolutely not correct. They tested freshly charged magnets and then days, weeks, months after and found little difference. It only takes a couple seconds to remove from the neodymium magnets and put them back on the magneto. I did them one at a time to minimize the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 Got the magneto back together and bench tested it with a nice spark so I was very hopeful that I could get the engine fired. Unfortunately once installed on the engine it wouldn't produce a spark, even with the spark plug grounded against the base. Obviously I'm missing something. I'm going to put the car on "ice" for a bit as I have a business opportunity that needs my full attention. It might take a couple months but if successful I will have a lot more time for the cars and my shop. Seen you guys in a bit! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) It sounds like the magneto output is being grounded somewhere before it can reach the spark plugs. Do you have a shutoff switch? Did you accidently leave it closed when it should be open to run the car? If I still have your email address I will send you a Bosch magneto manual in .pdf form. The forum doesn't support .pdf attachments (why?). Edited February 6 by cudaman (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 32 minutes ago, cudaman said: It sounds like the magneto output is being grounded somewhere before it can reach the spark plugs. Do you have a shutoff switch? Did you accidently leave it closed when it should be open to run the car? If I still have your email address I will send you a Bosch magneto manual in .pdf form. The forum doesn't support .pdf attachments (why?). I agree with that theory but I can't see where it would be happening. As a test I removed the cover that holds the shutoff switch and still no spark. I think the difference is I can turn the armature faster when it is on the bench than on the car (even with spark plugs out). The engine is basically all new with tight tolerances so it is difficult to turn very fast. My guess is the condenser needs to be replaced and I've heard that's done with a modern capacitor. I might just send it off to get rebuilt since I'll be away for a while. I got that manual from you, many thanks! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted March 12 Author Share Posted March 12 (edited) Still busy with my side project which is going great. I haven't done anything with the car but I did spot a surface grinder on FB Marketplace and managed to snag it. It is a brand ("Leach") I've never heard of before . It seems that early in the company's life they made a couple of machine tools (this grinder included) and then later became more of a dealer. The "family business" still survives to this day though the focus has shifted a bit. I'm looking forward to cleaning this old girl up and having it in the machine shop. When I went to inspect it I hung a 10ths indicator off the spindle and measured runout to the table. When it didn't really move I immediately said I'd take it. I also pressed down on the table and didn't get movement. I checked the indicator again to make sure it had travel and it did. That might not have been the best test but it was all I could think of. When I took it apart to get it loaded I could see scraping marks on all the moving surfaces so that also gave me a good feeling for the condition of the machine. I might have bought something that only needs to be cleaned up. Edited March 12 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Now you're going to have to expand the machine shop. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 Very good! They are one of those tools you rarely need but when you do there is nothing that will do the job anywhere near as well. Just being able to get a ground surface on tricky parts will be a revelation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted March 13 Share Posted March 13 I have a pile of grinding wheels...came with one of the two grinders I have...the one I've never assembled. I'll send you some. I'll never use then all. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 Buying old tools can be as bad a habit as our cars! 😁 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hursst Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Jeff, looking forward to any Metz or Healy updates. Where do you stand with your machine shop and Metz/Healy schedule? -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted August 8 Author Share Posted August 8 Hey Chris, I'm still alive but have been focused on a side project. Over the years I have developed a computer/console game with a buddy. It is called Virtual Pool and.. you guessed it... you can play pool with it. While playing pool on a computer, console or iPhone is great, playing pool in your house is more fun. With VR (Virtual Reality) devices like Meta Quest and Apple's VisionPro, that is a reality now. So the side project has been getting a version of the game working with VisionPro. That is now mostly complete so I will start getting back in to the shop later this month or maybe first of September. At the risk of stepping outside of the topic... here's a link to a video that shows the game on VisionPro. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 Thats pretty cool. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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