American Collectors Insurance issues

[Rosiesdad]

Has anyone had with a claim issue with American Collectors Insurance?

I am getting a bad feeling here. My "50 Buick got hit front and rear so both ends are smashed pretty bad. First they said they would send a "Specialist in old cars" out to estimate the damage.

After a week I called again and was told they would get someone out. Then the guy that show up kept saying his estimate was meaningless because it was an old car and he was pulling prices out of a modern car rate book.

Today I get another call and was told they want to send another adjuster out to look and I have to remove the car from my garage. He also wants a shop to give him a firm repair quote.

I explained that we have no idea what the parts and chrome are going to cost at this point, and that I was trying to maybe get a parts car that would be a better way to get everything we need. He said he couldn't authorize the purchase of any parts by me.

I have a $30,000 replacement guarantee policy. Both repair shops I talked to say close to $20,000 to make Buckey right again. I was assigned 0% fault in the accident caused by an insured driver.

Now I have to take another day off work to let them appraise damage again....... I'll probably use Hagerty next time if things don't start going my way REAL soon.

Maybe I shouldn't even try to be helpful, wash my hands of it and say FIX it NOW. Guess thats what I get for trying to help.

[BUICK RACER]

Get your own appraisal and then get a lawyer. So sorry to hear about your issues, but let us know how it turns out.

[Guest Chubb Car Guy Jim]

Rosiesdad -

While I can't comment specifically on American Collectors, with 20 years in the insurance industry I may be able to shed some light on the process.

American Collectors is an insurance agency, who in your case represents American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida. What this means to you as a consumer is that while American Collectors "services" your policy and is your advocate with the people who ultimately pay the claim, American Bankers.

But wait, it gets more complex. Most auto insurers do not conduct appraisals of damaged vehicle themselves. Instead, the job of evaluating vehicle damage and estimating the cost of repairs is sub-contracted to "independent adjusters". You now have 3 different organizations involved in settling your claim.

In my opinion, mistake #1 was the length of time it too get an independent adjuster to see your car - you should not have to make a follow-up call. Mistake #2 is that the first adjuster was not qualified. My guess? The "regular" classic car adjuster for your area was on vacation or something, and the substitute wasn't up to snuff.

The second adjuster was correct in what they told you about buying a parts car - while it has been a slow process for you, it is not yet time to jump to the end of the story. It is appropriate for the adjuster to ask you to get outside quote, and frankly, is in your best interest. I suspect during the 3rd visit they will review your estimates and reach a settlement with you. It would then be reasonable for you to expect either a check or authorization for your repairs to begin - the check is better, because it gives you choice and control of the repair process.

If it were me, I wouldn't "lawyer-up" yet - it sounds like you may be near a settlement. You might want to draft an email to the agent & insurance company documenting the facts and your frustration in the event it goes south from here. Don't speculate (as I've done above), and I wouldn't make overt threats, but just spell it out as you did in your post. Because of the nature of the hobby, insurance companies are very worried about our reputations among enthusiasts. If your next meeting doesn't go well, fire off the email.

While there were mistakes made, it appears like you're back on track. Feel free to contact me directly if you want to ask any questions.

Lastly, sorry to hear about your car - if I recall, you posted the pics of the damage a few weeks back. Regards

Jim

[Rosiesdad]

Thanks Jim. Good info.

No I'm not near the threat making stage yet. Don't want to go there. Just a gentle prodding is all it took it appears. We are a small community of car lovers and reputation is critical.

It's amazing what a little publicity will do? Got a call early this morning. I think we are back on track. Original adjuster has the file back and is submitting it with no more issues. Their estimate is a bit under quotes I am getting, but they say they will work with the shops. They are trying to figure the salvage value now. Will let you all know (And hopefully see the results).

[BUKE]

Rosesdad. I have had American antique car insurance for about 10 years. On my way to Plano Texas from Boston Massachusetts I got as far as Memphis Tennessee and T-bones another car. I was at fault but within 30 days I had a check in my hand and I put my 1940 Buick in the hands of the body shop and is still on a road today. So like Jim says and I personally know it's hard they will come through. I think they are very good insurance company and I highly recommend them. Like Jim I am very sorry to hear about your car but better days are coming.

Have a great Buick day

Frank

[Guest gunjeep444]

I just signed up with them, through USAA. So hope they are actually okay. USAA has treated me great for 43 years.

[Guest 66chevelle]

Hi everyone.....just joined......because I have issues with American Collectors Insurance......please comment .........Chubb Car Guy Jim

Some background info.....I have American Collectors Insurance for over 20 years with the same Auto. The Auto is a Original Survivor, matching numbers auto with all documentation and I am the original owner.

Recently, I was in an accident with another Auto[ 100 @fault]...we exchanged documentation....Auto was insured by one of the big three. Not to get involved with an Insurance Co. that dosent have Claim Adjusters which are trained with Classic Car experience...I elected to call American Collectors Insurance and discussed with them about subrogating the claim and the driver of the car [1st claim in over 20 years] The representative agreed and processed the claim.

The American Bankers Claim Adjuster went to my Repair Shop looked at the Auto and made his report to American Collectors...SOUNDS GOOD SO FAR !

A week or so later I received a check and a description of what was approved. To determine if the report was FAIR.....I selected an item to determine if the time & material was FAIR. After checking with 3 different sources of Restoration Parts....I determined via cost that NON NOS parts were authorized. I generated an e-mail to both American Collectors & American Bankers.......to date...only NON NOS parts are authorized.

My concearn is ...when the Auto in repaired....and I call upon an Apraiser to re-apraise the Auto......I will only have documentation to show NON NOS parts were used.

Question.NO.1 ...Will the Auto lose both its Historic & Monatary Value ?

In addition, to the body damage above, I also claimed that the Autos brakes and vacuum headlights were NOT functioning as they did prior to the accident. The Claims Adjuster told my repair shop that he would NOT consider them.

I have called & e-emailed American Collectors to rectify this condition.....no sucess to date.

Question N0..2...Could anyone recommend a way I could convince American Collectors Insurance to cover the claims ?

One more comment.....my repair shop mentioned that the adjuster stated to him...that his supervisor gave him authorization to TAKE BACK time & material that was previously authorized, If I don't STOP persuing the problems as mentioned above.

Please note: When I obtained American Collectors Insurance over 20 years ago......the representative and I discussed two items. 1. Agreed Value and

use of NOS where available.....because it was an Original Survivor.....The comment was YES.

I guess I should have went with either Grundy or Hagerty !

Please recommend a way forward...I am frustrated !

Chevelle !

[Rosiesdad]

Sorry to hear that Chevelle. I guess I cant really compare my Buick since it's a 50 I only found a NOS rear bumper. I don't think it will ever be the same as it was. I can't find any chrome that is even close to as solid as the smashed pieces. The appraiser they finally sent said no one wanted the job and he got the short stick. He quoted $1500 for the front grille. LOL. I guess he meant with NO chrome.......

[Reatta Man]

Chevelle,

You didn't specify which parts were authorized as non-NOS. Do you know for sure that NOS is available? Also, do you know for certain that NOS is better in this situation? Some companies may think of NOS as used, since the parts have sat around on a shelf somewhere for 40+ years.

If you are sure NOS is available, and not equivalent to the parts they propose to use, then talk to the adjuster. Do NOT mention the comments the shop foreman made to you; it is likely that will get him in hot water or he will deny he said it.

A quality shop will want to do this job right, so there may be a disconnect between the shop, the adjuster/appraiser and you. For example, someone may think you want it quick and don't want to spend the time finding NOS parts. Let them know you will find them if they agree to pay a fair price for them (yeah, insurance companies WILL choke on a $1,000 NOS part when they can get a repo for $100).

Insurance companies are getting harder and harder to deal with when you are outside of their little world of computer-generated estimates. You may be dealing with someone who really doesn't know or understand classic and collectible cars.

Joe

[JohnD1956]

Hi everyone.....just joined......because I have issues with American Collectors Insurance......please comment .........Chubb Car Guy Jim

...

Question.NO.1 ...Will the Auto lose both its Historic & Monatary Value ?

I'll defer to Jim but I do not think the car loses any historic value if it is damaged and then repaired. It's still what it is, just not what it was. But historical value could mean a few things. Is it's historical value based upon it's rarety or it's originality? 53 Skylarks are historical based on their rarety and concept, and they continue to far exceed their original value regardless if they are completely original or restored.

Now if the historical value is based only on the vehicles originality then I think the term Historical Value is a mis-nomer, and a more accurate term might be Collector Value. Collector Value is pretty close to monetary value and yes, I think a car that was damaged and repaired and was not of historical value , would lose it's monetary value. To some degree.

Obviously if it is totaled it will be valueless. If it is running and repaired close to it's original state then it should still have some monetary value.

Just my .02

[buick5563]

66 Chevelle,

The other point is that whether it is repaired with NOS parts or aftermarket parts, it has still been repaired, thus making it not original (from an original paint/ Archival Award/ unrestored aspect). Bummer either way. Fix it and enjoy it and be glad you weren't hurt.

[NTX5467]

66 Chevelle --

If your vehicle would have been a 2010 Chevy Impala, many insurance companies will not figure OEM parts, but "replacement" parts to repair the vehicle. Then the insurance company notes to CarFax that your vehicle has had some "body shop" repairs, (specified in the free reports), but no details. Needs a new bumper cover? "replacement". Needs new headlight assemblies? "replacement" This is much more typical than than you might expect.

But you say, "This is a newer car. A more common car." That it is, but the body shop repair could still affect it's trade-in AND ultimate used car lot retail pricing. I seem to recall a "Loss of Value" adjustment which policy holders can seek, from the respective insurance company, as something of a compensation in this area.

Still, though, it's the insurance company who is paying for the repairs, so THEY seem to get "final say" in what happens . . . rather than the vehicle's owner (which, as they might perceive, will only drive up their payout for repairs, if allowed to do so). This is why things need to be settled UP FRONT BEFORE REPAIRS BEGIN rather than later, after the vehicle is finished.

Due to the cost difference between NOS or repro sheet metal and the "replacement" parts, you might also discover that that great-looking car you've admired at car shows and cruises has "replacement" parts on it. Some vendors have even put factory part numbers on the "replacement" parts boxes and have sold them for much more than the normal price, as I understand it. Key note: If the part is priced as an OEM or repro part, then it should have a "GM Restoration Parts" licensee sticker on it . . . similar for Ford and Chrysler. NOT a hand-written factory part number.

In many respects, the "replacement" parts now available are far superior to the earlier ones we saw in the 1980s. But I would still consider it "Buyer Beware" in all cases, as there's probably some poorly-done stuff out there, somewhere, although much of it is pretty good. At least shops don't complain about them nearly as much as they used to.

To me, a significant side issue would be the equipment level and options on the vehicle. If the adjuster sees a somewhat common '66 Chevelle sport coupe, 327/300.PowerGlide/factory ac/ PS, PB, bucket seat car, then that makes it a really nice car. But if it is a REAL SS, 396/375/4 speed/PosiTraction/Pdisc Brakes/FM-Multiplex/Rally Wheel car, that's a different situation where real collectible value can come into play. Still, though, who's to say that a "replacement" fender, for example, is going to significantly negatively impact the vehicle's ultimate value? Still, though, you can see that if the adjuster sees a "normal car" versus a bonafide "collectible muscle car", how things happen might be affected.

It's great that you had an original, unmollested "survivor" car that you bought new and have maintained in great (I presume) condition all of this time. Things of this nature tend to become a "family member" of sorts, over time, so any damage to them takes things to a higher level or things. Unfortunately, many older vehicles have had some repaint or body repairs to them (in the case of your vehicle's siblings, rust around the rear window, at the base), or paint work to keep things looking nice. It's regrettable that, unfortunatly, your vehicle is now in that larger class of vehicle.

It sounds flaky that the adjuster threatened the shop owner with a decrease in payments due to your concern of what was used in the repair process!!! If anything, the adjuster should be much more open about what they paid for and what was done. It kind of sounds like the adjuster is either in deep trouble with his bosses for not totalling the car or something else is going on somewhere . . . unfortunately.

The other thing is that what the original salesperson told you about what was covered and not covered, in a conversation, should have been put into writing at that time, signed and notarized, so it would be much more of a legal document. Since that time, policies and company owners/supervisors have probably changed, which can affect how they do business. Without such a signed and notarized document, then it's your word against theirs and THEY will most probably lean toward THEIR side. But even if you had a signed and notarized document, they could defeat that with "policy changes" over the time between when the policy was initiated and when the claim was placed. This would be THEIR burden to prove, I would hope!

As for the vacuum issues to the brakes and such, that should be a reasonably easy fix . . . provided it's just a vacuum line that didn't get plugged in or something. At worst, it might need a reman power brake booster, but that's not a big expense. The shop AND insurance company should ensure that the repaired vehicle is SAFE for everyday use on public roadways . . . which would mean the power brakes have to work well.

I tend to concur with 5563 in many respects. If the body lines are still good, the body work is straight and smooooth, if the paint matches, and everything else is in good condition, then it might be best to lick your "wounds", progress, and learn from the experiences. Now you know how to better shop for coverage and what to look for in the repair aspect of the policy.

Sorry to hear of your loss. I hope things can reach an equitable ending!

Regards,

NTX5467

[Guest Chubb Car Guy Jim]

66Chevelle -

Based on the comments above, it seems like the folks on this board are pretty knowledgeable.

Assuming NOS parts are readily available, and there is no language in the contract stating that you're not entitled to them, it seems like you're well within your rights to request them. I'd ask the adjuster to show you in the contract where it says that NOS parts are excluded in the settlement payment basis.

Having said that, I agree that most modern after-market "replacement" parts are at least as good re: quality as NOS/OEM parts manufactured 45 years ago. Will your vehicle suffer a decrease in value because it is no longer "original"? Maybe, but that would be the same regardless of whether you used NOS or replacement parts.

Really sorry to hear your car took a hit.

[Guest palosfv3]

I dont mean to be rude or offensive but there are things in this thread that are not accurate and repeating these inaccuracies only tend to validate them.

The only person that can authorize the repair of an auto is the vehicle owner . He decides on how he wants his car repaired and where not the insurance company or any of their representatives . Look at the insurance damage report . It states clearly that they cant authorize repair . They like to get everyone to believe they can because this gives them control over the payment. Sadly over the last several decades they have positioned themselves in the eyes of the public as a controling interest of a property they have no legal right in.

Insurance claims departments place disclaimers all over their papers that state they need to inspect any additional damage before they authorize payment. How many times do they need to inspect a car before they can get to the final cost of the completed repair ?? In the repair of special interest and even heavily damaged new vehicles this is just impractical and burdensome on both the shop and the consumer as well as the carrier. Yet claims personel routinely hold to this absurd practice . After insurance rep inspects the damage as part of a first party claim the policy contigency of viewing the damage has been met. Why do the repair shop and the owner need to call them again because they have not looked carefully at the original damage and filled out the reports accurately. There is nothing in any policy that I am aware of that requires this additional notification. After a second inspection by an adjuster that hasn't been able to accurately assess a dollar figure to a loss , I would suggest sending your claims rep and agent a notice of estimate deficiency and state to them that this is causing an undo delay in the prompt repair and return of your car and you will proceeding with the necessary repairs to restore your car back to its preloss condition and will expect prompt payment of the repair bill associated with the damage. Remember the insurance company damage report is an internal document for their use to document payment for a loss to an insured and nothing else . It is not the blueprint for repair . That is controled by the repairer and the consumer.

Any liscensed public adjuster that assesses a loss in favor of either party involved in the loss can become liable for that difference . This is what they have errors and omissions insurance for but in the case of something blatant it would not surprise me that they dont have coverage in this type of situation . Just because the insurance company is paying an adjusting service for their service they are not to be slighting the consumer in any way . Again over the years insurance claims personel and some adjusting services have routinely crossed this line. This has been quite blatant in the daily driver auto claims and is now slowly making its way into other areas of claims coverage. There is something askew in Chevelle 's loss based on the statements he posted that if the adjuster is an independent confirms my above statement.

In most first party insurance policies the insurance company has the option of paying the loss in cash, replacing the property , or repairing the property . It is a very rare occasion that they will do anything other than to offer to pay the loss in cash due to the additional liablilties they incur with the other options. A this point they have opted in Chevelles case to pay the loss in cash. It is now Chevelle's responsibility to negotiate the loss with the carrier not the shop. By allowing the shop into this position the owner is really putting himself at a disadvantage and the shop and the insurance company into a legal gray area . The insurance company should deal directly with the insured this way there is a direct accountabilty to the policy holder.

Chevelle , go to your states Department of Insurance and look into the complaint ratios for your insurance company. This will give you a insight to how they have dealt with people and how happy they are with them . Sometimes this info is buried on the states web site and can be difficult to find and evaluate but it is there. In most states there are what are commonly refered as high risk or substandard insurance companies. They can make claims processing a nightmare and you need to make sure who you are dealing with. If your dealing with one of these companies start a detailed documentation of all contacts , statements and issues. You may need these if you have to file a complaint or take other actions.

Aftermarket auto parts are not equal to OEM. Even on todays autos . After 40 plus years in the auto repair industry I still have not found aftermarket parts that are up to the same standards as OE , especially in the areas of corrosion protection and metal alloys. Yes todays parts are made to a stricter tolerance than those from several decades ago Yet just looking at some of these parts is enough to tell you they are not up to snuff. The aftermarket part industry has marketed hard to gain acceptance with the buying public but the fact remains once they are put into use they dont hold up as well as the originals today. There may be some truth to todays new aftermarket replacement fenders for some late 60's cars are similar to originals made back in the day but after looking at several recently we opted to find good original used and clean and repair up to standard of the vehicle in need of repair. Panel distortion, poor spot welds and such were evident in several of the same parts. There may be a place for these parts in the repair of an auto but I will not sell or warrant these to any customer.

I wish all the best to Chevelle , Rosiesdad and all others that have had the misfortune of damage to a prized possession.

Its your car . Why would you let anyone else decide on what you will accept ?

Edited August 17, 2011 by palosfv3 (see edit history)

[buick5563]

Palos,

I agree for the most part OEM parts are better than aftermarket, however, 66 Chevelle asked about NOS parts. I don't see how demanding (or requesting) NOS parts could even be a possibility on most of our cars. Rosie's Dad had to hunt down bumper fillers from junkyard cars in his case.

I appreciate Chubb Jim chiming in here, but (Jim, close your eyes) insurance companies ALL stink!!! I have been with USAA for years and they have stopped being as good as they used to be. I have Hagerty for my classics (small C) and I hope I never need to use them.

[NTX5467]

In the world of insurance, as I have observed it, there are good adjusters and not-so-good adjusters . . . especially back when each company had their own resident adjusters in a particular area. Some will try to steam roll the policyholder into some flaky repair situations, by observation and my OWN experiences (with a major insurance company). Some will also . . . and have . . . tried to steer policyholders into certain repair shops for whatever reason(s), too.

In a more perfect world, the policyholder has the ultimate choice in where the vehicle is repaired . . . as long as it's a reasonable request--key words. In other words, no insurance company is going to pay for a "restoration level" repair job, but they will pay for an "OEM level" repair job with OEM level supplies.

And then there's the use of "Like Kind and Quality" of repair parts (i.e., used sheet metal and other related items). Unfortunately, some salvage yards have screwed the pooch by doing shoddy repairs to bent sheet metal, repainting them, and selling them to insurance adjusters/companies for repairs on older vehicles. I've known of some that looked good to the untrained eye, but when the fender was installed, it had so much Bondo in it that the door would not open. NO shop wants something like that as it's their time to install, their time to refinish, and their time to take it off when it doesn't work. Therefore, many good shops know where to find good items for later model vehicles.

But in the case of an older or more vintage vehicle, they can be at a total loss as it's not something they normally deal with OR have a supply network to tap into for these things. End result is that the customer might end up chasing their own parts and hope they're good enough to suit the shop.

Here's a "reality check" for NOS sheet metal. It might well be New Old Stock, but the fact it's been "somewhere" for all of these decades can also mean it's been handled and re-handled and re-handled again. The original factory wrapper, if any, is probably long gone or in shambles by this time. The end result is that a dent/dinged used fender might be a better and less labor intensive item than a much higher $$$$$ NOS fender from someone's private stash. The other alternative would be an OEM-licensed fender, if available, which should be a "cleaner" part to refinish and install.

The item abour OEM vs aftermarket corrosion resistance was well-documented 25+ years ago when the first "Taiwan" sheet metal came to the USA and many advocated its use. Some brands were better than others, with about three different quality levels of aftermarket sheet metal at that time. But as they weren't copyrighted or licensed, they had poorer fit characteristics and also had "different" attaching holes and alignment holes.

In more recent times, some of the major insurance companies now claim they use (and pay for) OEM sheet metal, bumper covers, and such . . . but it appears this little detail might have been quietly discarded in our more recent times. GM (and other OEMs) has some price-match programs for body shop entities in order to recapture some of that market. By this time, too, the body shop operators and body repair techs know where to get "the good stuff" of aftermarket replacement parts . . . for later model vehicles. They also know where they need to be getting OEM items for the best quality of work they produce.

The other "problem" is that most shops now need to turn as many jobs as quickly as they can to support their overhead costs. This can be problematic for a customer with an older vehicle or even a customer with a newer vehicle for which a needed part is on major backorder status. Many variables here.

By observation, some insurance companies seem to be of the orientation that as THEY are paying the bill, THEY get to control what parts are used on a particular repair job. Certainly, the customer can determine the repair shop (even a "direct repair" shop for a particular insurer). Having the repair performed by a larger repair shop with current tech equipment and paint system operations can result in a higher quality of finished product, but the end result can only be as good as the underlying body work performed.

Another issue is the type of paint. Current basecoat/clearcoat systems are far superior to the earlier acrylic enamels and acrylic lacquers (which GM used) in the later 1960s. The shine and depth thereof will certainly not match the earlier paint systems even if the color is a dead-on match. All any insurance company will pay for is refinishing the affected areas and blending the new paint with adjacent body panels. Therefore, unless they can shoot the earlier paint system on the vintage vehicle, the repair will be obvious--metallic paint or not, due to the difference in gloss (and the hardness thereof) between the original and current paints.

There can be MANY pitfalls in getting a vintage vehicle repaired, even a vehicle from the more advanced (a relative term) times of the 1960s and 1970s. Any claims will usually be treated as if the vehicle was a much more recent vintage than an "antique", for many reasons. Therefore, when investigating "collector car insurance" coverage, ASK MANY QUESTIONS. The related unfortunate thing is that the local agent's representative might not be able to answer them, referring to the language in the policy. They might have been schooled in such policies, but it's also a high probability that those doing the instructing might not know all of the answers, either. IF the insurance company being investigated turns out to be a "broker" who sells vintage vehicle policies for a larger group, THAT could be a sure sign of future issues if there might be a claim.

End result, all you can do is do your intense due dilligence in the shopping for vintage vehicle insurance. Some companies and agents are better than others, by observation, in certain or all areas. There's a LOT more there than just if the vehicle will be parked in a secure garage location at night or how many miles/year you can drive it.

Respectfully,

NTX5467

[Guest JPArizona]

I don't see a problem using "used parts" provided they are in good shape. After all the parts damaged were also used. If the repairs are done properly the value should not diminish.

What I would expect from my insurance company would be to have everything restored to exactly as it was a split second before the damage occurred. Nothing more, nothing less. If for some reason that can't happen, they can give me a check for the agreed value and they would own the car.

I've had the same insurance company since the Dead Sea first got sick & while I've never had to file a claim I have seen the results of family members filing claims with the same company. (Note no names mentioned here) Anyway the results were always flawless. Instant service, no BS, and everyone lived happily ever after. If your insurance company isn't providing service find one that will.

[Jim65Riv]

TO: JPArizona - do you realize that this thread is over two years old?

[Guest JPArizona]

TO: JPArizona - do you realize that this thread is over two years old?

I didn't check the date so I wasn't aware the statute of limitations had expired.

Please accept my sincere apology for causing any emotional distress.

[49_buick_super]

No distress here. I enjoyed reading it again. Insurance has been on my mind lately. Good topic.