Buick Endurance

[old-tank]

A few months ago I finally got around to getting the contents of some VCR tapes into the computer. When I tried to put this one on YOUTUBE it was too long, so with the help of Stealthbob here is something for your enjoyment.

That's a 401 by the way. This is especially for all of you that like to baby your nailheads:D.

[Thriller]

Way cool.

[stealthbob]

I love the refueling.....everything was about aircraft then!

I wonder what the oil looked like after all that?

[Guest Kingoftheroad]

That was COOL !! I love the old Nailhead...

[buick5563]

That is really cool Willie.

What would we do without The StealthBob?

[NTX5467]

Thanks for getting that video transfered and posted!

Funny how that endurance run seemed to get little publicity but what Ford did with the '63 or '64 Mercury Comet V-8 was all over the magazines and such. I think it went to 100K, though. Not to forget the later African Rallye "adventures" with similar rallye-prepped Mercury Comets.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[MrEarl]

I saw this right after you posted but thought I'd wait and view it over Sunday morning coffee. Just finished viewing it over a cup of Ethiopian in my favorite Buick mug. Life don't get no better'n dis.

Thanks Willie and Bob. :cool:

Edited April 3, 2011 by MrEarl (see edit history)

[stealthbob]

....no thanks needed to me!

As I have said before, as a newb it is hard to "Pay back" all the great help I have received. So when these little things come along I am very gratified to be asked to help.

Its nice that Willie decided to do the real work of transferring this off of tape and into the digital realm for it surely would have been lost forever. I just think of all the stuff that is locked away in some dark closet degrading away over time.

If anybody has stuff like this on VHS and wants to "Restore" and save it, it's not that technically difficult to do. Using a "Capture Card" which can be external or internal (some PC's out there have them already built in) all that is needed is to connect the VCR to this device or PC press play and using the software record it. At this point you would have saved the video from loss to deterioration.The next step if you want it on-line is to trans-code it to an easier format which can be done simply with some free software out there then upload it to Youtube or Vimeo ...ect.

I'm offering to help anyone if they want to share some old video....hell send me the vid and I will do it all myself. Just PM me and we can talk.

[old-tank]

Thanks for getting that video transfered and posted!

Funny how that endurance run seemed to get little publicity but what Ford did with the '63 or '64 Mercury Comet V-8 was all over the magazines and such. I think it went to 100K, though. Not to forget the later African Rallye "adventures" with similar rallye-prepped Mercury Comets.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

I remember that the story was in Mechanix Illustrated, complete with detailed pictures of the refueling setup and other still shots. Since that was the only 'guy' magazine in the house I probably read that story 10 times. At 15 years old seeing the movie would have been a real treat.

I have some other "stuff" on VHS and may take Bob up on his offer or do it myself with guidance.

Willie

[MrEarl]

....no thanks needed to me!

As I have said before, as a newb it is hard to "Pay back" all the great help I have received. So when these little things come along I am very gratified to be asked to help.

newb....NEWB.....I don't know that I'd call anyone who's been on here a year and half with 600+ posts and a TOTALLY dismantled 54 Roadmaster in his garage a "NEWB". Thanks for your offer to help others Bob

[Guest shorttimer]

Okay, that was cool. Like the 4867 track car, too.

[Guest BigDogDaddy]

That was very cool to watch ! What was the reason they used a platform for changing the tires ? I've never seen that before. I wonder if they had a way of lifting the whole car off of the ground at once, rather than individually for each wheel.

Thanks for sharing this !!

[Centurion]

Absolutely fantastic! Thanks so much!

[Guest]

Thanks for getting that video transfered and posted!

Funny how that endurance run seemed to get little publicity but what Ford did with the '63 or '64 Mercury Comet V-8 was all over the magazines and such. I think it went to 100K, though. Not to forget the later African Rallye "adventures" with similar rallye-prepped Mercury Comets.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

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Your right! 100,000 miles at 100MPH for the Comet.

This was a great video. Was wondering if those guys had special coolers on the engine, trans and diff. When the driver was giving back the data I only got water-180 deg. Oil at 260 deg. Trans at 210 deg. and rear axle at 240 deg. The guy said something else, but I can't make it out. I was also wondering what kind of oil pressure and RPM the engine was running, plus what the rear axle ratio was.

Don

[Guest]

Did anyone see when they were adding oil, the length of the breather stacks on the valve covers?

I just love the the explanation of the meaning of the letters NASCAR. I think they said National association of stock cars. Whatever they said, NASCAR is a joke today. When was the last time you saw a STOCK car race in NASCAR?

BTW half of the Race drivers in the test drove Pontiac's that year.

D.

[NTX5467]

[quote

BTW half of the Race drivers in the test drove Pontiac's that year.

Some of them were Ford drivers in the early 1960s. It was all in who'd give them the best terms and had the best equipment to win, not unlike more current times.

In the earlier days of NASCAR, the cars were actually purchased from dealers and "prepped" by the team's organization. Plus mandatory teardowns, too (probably still necessary, but NOT the big deal it seemed to be back then), for the winners. By the earlier 1960s, the cars were still "as built" but were beginning to have many other safety and durability add-ons. I remember seeing an article on these cars in an old "Hot Rod Annual" . . . a cooler for the rear axle lube run by a short V-belt off of the driveshaft, for example. Their only real communications with the pit crew was on small blackboards held up for the drivers to see as they passed the pits, unlike the Buick's crew with two-way radios. And then there was Richard Petty's "heat suit" which circulated cooled water through it, from a reservoir where the rear seat would be. NOT to forget that the doors were welded shut and the side windows removed. Those earlier driver "suits" were usually jeans and a t-shirt, with a crash helmet. Quite a bit different from what came later!

When that Buick run was made, the only way I might have seen Mechanix Illustrated was at the barber shop. I always got a kick out of their road tests back then! Back when "road tests" were really about driving on USA highways than on "artificial environment" test tracks (which also have their place in things).

Take care,

NTX5467

[JohnD1956]

Flashback...I recall seeing that movie at the Flint meet in 78, Buicks 75th anniversary at Buick City. Thanks Willie and Bob for geting this on here. Should be a sticky.

Helfen, the other thing was engine vacuum, reported at 4 inches. At WOT would it be that? or 0 inches?

Anyway, I doubt I'd try that in my 56, but those racing tires sure looked great on that Invicta. What a great car the 60's are.

[Thriller]

It's also given some pause for thought on my '61 Invicta once it gets done...I wonder what the look on Suzanne's face will be when I tell her it should do 120 mph without extreme difficulty....

[Guest]

[quote

BTW half of the Race drivers in the test drove Pontiac's that year.

Some of them were Ford drivers in the early 1960s. It was all in who'd give them the best terms and had the best equipment to win, not unlike more current times.

In the earlier days of NASCAR, the cars were actually purchased from dealers and "prepped" by the team's organization. Plus mandatory teardowns, too (probably still necessary, but NOT the big deal it seemed to be back then), for the winners. water through it,

Take care,

NTX5467

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While it's true most drivers went where there was a ride, after GM's 14th floor stabbed Chevy and Pontiac in the back in late January of 1963 with no more factory racing involvement drivers had to find rides somewhere else. That isn't all they killed. Pontiac's advanced engineering was working on OHC sixes, OHC 389-421 V-8's in two valve , three valve and double overhead cam 4 valve per cylinder engines. They would have made the reintroduced Hemi for 1964 just kitty pool. The only engine that did make it was the OHC six 1966-1969. Pontiac division supplied cars, parts, money and engineering services to race car teams. Smokey Yunick and Ray Nichols engineering were on Pontiac's payroll in those years and not just at the race track. They were working for Pontiac engineering. Before Bunkie Knudsen (Pontiac General Manager from Sept. 1956- Nov. 1961.) found a way for engineering to donate cars to racers in 1957 he actually gave Nichole's engineering cars out of his own pocket. Cotton Owens won the Daytona Beach race in 57 in a 57 Chieftain, and Paul Goldsmith the next year in a 58 Chieftain a Yunick car. The most interesting car was Yunicks 59 Catalina driven by Fireball Roberts. Today's race cars are so similar that the difference between 1st on the pole and last is less than a few hundredths of a second and one or two MPH. Roberts/Yunick 59 Catalina was TEN MPH faster than any car in the field. Trouble was that ten dollar A/C fuel pump broke a arm off and got into the chain and ruined Roberts chance of a victory, leaving Lee Petty in a 59 Olds to win the race with a car with leftover parts from a division already out of racing. Bobby Jahns bought that car from Yunick for the next years race and would have won but on the last lap coming off the backstretch at 170mph the air pressure blew his back window out and he spun into the infield, recovered and made a 2nd place to Junior's 60 Chevy's 348. Of course Marvin Panch won the 61 Daytona in a 1960 Pontiac and Fireball won the 62 Daytona in a 421 Catalina. Not only did Pontiac Division supply cars to the racers, they supplied demo cars to the dealers for all the dignitaries to be driven around and just to make things look legit they painted dealership names on the race cars so it looked like they were part of the sponsorship.

Don

Edited April 4, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest]

One good thing did come from GM's ban on racing. Pontiac had risen from a division that was going to be terminated because of poor sales. Bunkie Knudsen decided to turn a old mans car into a young mans car so he took Pontiac racing. This elevated Pontiac to #3 in sales. When the ban on racing came in 63 it left Pontiac without a stage to sell cars. How do you maintain a # 3 position if you can't race? You take it off the track and put it on the street in a slightly modified form. How do you also get around GM's new restriction on the new for 64 "A" body for no engine larger than 330 inches?. The birth of the Pontiac GTO came about for this very reason. Since the 14floor only approved new models and not options it was decided by Pontiac to make the GTO a option on the LeMans to avoid 14th floor approval. The whole Z16-SS396, GTO, 442, Skylark GS would have never happened.

BTW the 14th floor was furious with Pontiac for circumventing the rules, but after the money started rolling in they TOLD the other three divisions to build one of their own.

Don

[NTX5467]

The "racing ban" wasn't just a GM deal, but Ford, too, as I recall--the result of an AMA orientation that "racing was bad for the image" and such. This is when things started going to where they got to by creative means. Chevy had been hiding their higher-high performance parts in plain open sight . . . in the parts book . . . IF you knew the correct "code words" for the vehicle/engine nomenclatures . . . BEFORE the option codes were openly used.

Even before the ban, certain parts were showing up in places they normally would not have been. Not to forget the Chevy "Mystery Engine" in Yunick's (1963?) cars! The engine which later became the Chevy Turbo-Jet V-8 (i.e., 396, 427) family. This was something of "normal practice" for Ford and GM back then. Then there was the "7000 Rpm Kit" for the Ford FE-series NASCAR engines, which allowed them to run more reliably at higher rpm levels . . . and win more races in 1963. It was somewhat obvious which NASCAR teams had close factory "relationships", back then.

As it was proven that winning races on Sunday sold cars on Monday, the AMA ban was quietly dropped a few years later. By that time, there was enough "flow" of special parts to particular teams to effectively circumvent the ban.

The Automobile Manufacturers Association seemed to be something of a short-lived entity. Somebody got the bright idea that promoting speed rather than vehicle safety was not a good idea, especially for the younger people with raging hormones. Even when GM quietly allowed the GTO option (added into the production mix too late for corporate approval, too!), there was still a limit of 400 cid for the intermediate chassis vehicles. But with Ford having their 428s and Chrysler their 440s, that too did pass, particularly when the emissions regulations strangled power too much.

Those were some exciting times!

NTX5467

[Guest]

Fords total performance program was formed in 1963 with the 406 enlarged to 427. Fords aim was NASCAR, Drag Racing and Road racing with a determination to win all especially LeMans. The AMA ban was in 1957 and Bunkie largely ignored it. The anti racing ban of 63 was a INTERNAL GM ban on racing only. Yunicks 63 Mistery engine was a W engine but now 427 inches. Lastly GM didn't quietly let the GTO out, the car was produced and was selling before the 14th floor could do anything about it. Pontiac's General manager, Pete Estes put his career on the line circumventing corporate policy. The limit for 1964 "A" bodies was 330 inches, it wasn't until the corporation told the rest of the divisions to build one that the other makers had no engine in their inventory that was less than 400 inches that the engine size was expanded to 400 inches.

Edited April 5, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[Guest]

Here is a little known fact just to prove the 330 cubic inch limit on the "new" "A" bodies. In 1963 the Pontiac Tempest got a Pontiac version of a V-8 called the 326. Truth is if you do the math 3.78 X 3.75 the engine comes out to 336 inches, 6 inches over the limit. Because of this limitation all 326 engines from 1964 to the end of this size in 67 was a true 326 which is 3.72X 3.75. And just a FYI the 350 Pontiac engine is not really a 350, it's a 355. Here's a little unknown fact the 421 Pontiac was punched to 428 in 1967. But doing the math the 428 is really a 427! Why?? NASCAR's engine size at that time was 427. Pontiac was going to go racing if GM lifted the ban. Oh yes the 455 Pontiac isn't a 455, it's a 456.

Don

[Guest Thomas Lord]

Wow, that was a great accomplishment. I imagine the night time refueling was intense.

Can't help wondering what the axle ratio was, and if the cam was a stock grind.

[NTX5467]

But doing the math the 428 is really a 427! Why?? NASCAR's engine size at that time was 427. Pontiac was going to go racing if GM lifted the ban. Oh yes the 455 Pontiac isn't a 455, it's a 456.

Don

With all due respect, I recall that the displacement limit for NASCAR's premier series was really "7.0 Liters", rather than "427 cid". This would allow the 430cid Lincoln engine to be used in the Ford Thunderbirds for NASCAR while, also, the 430 V-8 was the optional engine in the Square Birds of the time. Still, though, "427" seemed to be the magic number that was just enough under the limit to allow for a little wear when the post-race winner's teardown took place.

NASCAR racers might have been known for "innovative engineering", but measuring bore and stroke were very basic things to NOT be suspect. An "illegal carburetor" would have been better than "illegal engine size", I suspect.

At the time, there was much speculation about Smokey's Chevy "Mystery Engine". Even when they broke, after running away from others on the track, the cars were immediately put "undercover" in the shop. In later years, it became obvious that they were, from the few parts which managed to sneak out of the shop, precursors to the later 396-427-454 engine family, but NOT specifically the later engines per se.

Circa 1969, Chevy participated in the Can-Am race series with "big block V-8s", but not the normal Turbo-Jet V-8s then in production. These were unique 430cid V-8s which had better power than their normal big block V-8s did. Thehy had bore/stroke and rod length/stroke ratios of approx 1.33 and 1.90, respectively . . . which are basically the same as the Chevy 302 Z/28 engine of the time . . . AND, surprisingly, the Chrysler B 383 V-8. When I found out the differences in the Chevy 430 and their 427, I got out my trusty K-E slide rule and a Peterson's "Engine Annual" and ran the numbers on USA engines--one of my many slide rule projects back then.

When the aftermarket vendors did some re-designs for the Chevy Big Block V-8 cylinder heads in the 1980s, one reason for the fact the Chevy Can-Am motors never made it to the production line might have become evident. We'd known that there were "good" and "bad" intake ports in the Chevy BB heads and that porting could lessen the comparative differences, but could never make them all equal. When the aftermarket designs equalized the port flow, the broad torque curve the engines had became much more "peaky", with less total power across the total rpm range. It also made them "hard to tune" and drag racing performance decreased. Another item relating to the rod length/stroke ratio meant the piston dwelled more at TDC than the normal BB piston did (with a RL/S ratio more like 1.57 . . . "torque" range), which made intake port design much more critical . . . smooth flow rather than "yanking" on the intake charge in the port/manifold, with the "yanking" tending to make up for the seemingly un-optimized intake runners, cylinder to cylinder.

Even in later times, the marketing people have bent the rules a little on advertised engine cid numbers, especially after the Metric System designations came into play.

One thing about NASCAR, there are plenty of stories to go around for many more years . . . just from the times prior to 1970 alone!

Regards,

NTX5467

[Guest]

With all due respect, I recall that the displacement limit for NASCAR's premier series was really "7.0 Liters", rather than "427 cid". This would allow the 430cid Lincoln engine to be used in the Ford Thunderbirds for NASCAR while, also, the 430 V-8 was the optional engine in the Square Birds of the time. Still, though, "427" seemed to be the magic number that was just enough under the limit to allow for a little wear when the post-race winner's teardown took place.

Regards,

NTX5467

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You will also remember the 427 maximum came after 1962. I remember well the 2nd place finisher at Daytona in 1959. Jonny Beauchamp's 59 T-Bird with a 430 Lincoln engine at a time when there was no limit to engine size as long as it was available for a particular car. The Pontiac 428 made it's introduction for the 67 model year after the 427 limit had been established, and my point is that the engine really was a 427 and could have used it in NASCAR and NHRA.

Don

[Guest Thomas Lord]

And just a FYI the 350 Pontiac engine is not really a 350, it's a 355.

Don

I've always heard it was 354. I've never done the math myself, maybe the actual is 354.5 and nobody considers rounding up.

You might say the Pontiac 301 is really a 302. It has the same bore & stroke as the Ford and Chevy 302s.

Another quirk about declared engine displacements by Pontiac is the 6.5 Liter badging on the early GTOs. I believe 389 cubic inches is actually most nearly 6.4 liters. They later used 6.5 Liter call outs on the decklids of 73-75 Grand Ams which were equipped with 400ci engines. Even though the 400 would be referred to as 6.6 on the 77-79 Trans Ams.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Thomas Lord
additional info (see edit history)

[Guest Thomas Lord]

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You will also remember the 427 maximum came after 1962. I remember well the 2nd place finisher at Daytona in 1959. Jonny Beauchamp's 59 T-Bird with a 430 Lincoln engine at a time when there was no limit to engine size as long as it was available for a particular car. The Pontiac 428 made it's introduction for the 67 model year after the 427 limit had been established, and my point is that the engine really was a 427 and could have used it in NASCAR and NHRA.

Don

It's my understanding that Ford & Mercury entries ran 429 cubic inches from the late 1960s until the 5.8 liter limit was established.

Are you saying the 'Blue Oval' 429 was also smaller than advertised?

Ford also marketed a 428 that was a completely different engine than the 429. 1966 Galaxies carried 7 Liter badges when equipped with the 428.

I believe that had something to do with the NASCAR engine limit also.

[Guest]

I've always heard it was 354. I've never done the math myself, maybe the actual is 354.5 and nobody considers rounding up.

You might say the Pontiac 301 is really a 302. It has the same bore & stroke as the Ford and Chevy 302s.

Another quirk about declared engine displacements by Pontiac is the 6.5 Liter badging on the early GTOs. I believe 389 cubic inches is actually most nearly 6.4 liters. They later used 6.5 Liter call outs on the decklids of 73-75 Grand Ams which were equipped with 400ci engines. Even though the 400 would be referred to as 6.6 on the 77-79 Trans Ams.

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The 355 is actually 354.71 which is way more than enough to call it a 355. What did you think of the original 1963 326 actually being a 336!

Don

[Guest Thomas Lord]

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The 355 is actually 354.71 which is way more than enough to call it a 355. What did you think of the original 1963 326 actually being a 336!

Don

Fair enough. I figured the 350 was probably between 354.5 and 354.9 when I read your first post.

Never knew about the 336, although I have heard that the '63 326 HO engines are the only 326 to have any serious value. Guess that's why.

[old-tank]

I've always heard it was 354. I've never done the math myself, maybe the actual is 354.5 and nobody considers rounding up.

You might say the Pontiac 301 is really a 302. It has the same bore & stroke as the Ford and Chevy 302s.

Another quirk about declared engine displacements by Pontiac is the 6.5 Liter badging on the early GTOs. I believe 389 cubic inches is actually most nearly 6.4 liters. They later used 6.5 Liter call outs on the decklids of 73-75 Grand Ams which were equipped with 400ci engines. Even though the 400 would be referred to as 6.6 on the 77-79 Trans Ams.

There was a 79 T/A at a local cruise-in with 6.6 badging...it had an Olds engine, probably a 401.

[Guest]

There was a 79 T/A at a local cruise-in with 6.6 badging...it had an Olds engine, probably a 401.

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You are correct, The Pontiac 400 could not meet California emission standards so the Olds 403 was used.

Thomas, there is another 336 Pontiac out there as well, It is, along with the 324 or 371 or both Gen 1 Olds in late 50's GMC trucks. They both use the D type single coupling 4 speed Hydramatic.

Don

Edited May 2, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)