three shoe brakes..pros & cons

[alsfarms]

Can someone,either on this forum or in a private message detail the pros and cons of a late 1920's three shoe brake system. Is it a good candidate To modify and adapt to hydraulic brakes and away from the mechanical operation?

Alan

[Owen_Dyneto]

I can only say that the Bendix-Perrot 3-shoe system is a superb brake system, far more competent than should ever be needed unless you like to tailgate at high speeds. Drive the car reasonably and they'll be more than you need. That said, as with any mechanical brake system you've got to pay proper attention to lubrication (cables, pivots, etc) and adjustment. IMO converting to hydraulics provides no benefit, and the deviation from original equipment would considerably detract from value of the car to some buyers.

The 2-shoe Bendix system used starting in 32? or 33 was even better with adjustable power boost. I wish the hydraulic brakes in my 56 Packard were as good!

Edited January 26, 2011 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Thanks for your information. I agree with your idea on the three shoe design and the resulting functionality of the system. My problem is a lack of external control parts. I simply do not have what I need to activate the three shoe system mechanically. As a result, I am considering a change, from mechanical to hydraulic activation for this system. Has anyone, who visits this TECH forum, made such a change from mechanical activation to hydraulic?

Thanks,

Alan

[alsfarms]

Can anyone refer me to a good brake guy who knows the mechanical three shoe system as well as has the knowledge to modify to hydraulics, due to lack of sound restorable parts.:confused:

Al

[A by the sea]

Converting mechanical brakes to hydraulics is not something that is usually better than mechanical. At best you end up with a system that has more fail points and is going to require substantially more maintenance. You have the second problem if you use a single master cylinder you now have a single point failure if you lose the fluid to any line. When was the last time you heard of a mechanical brake rod failure with original parts. I can show you a repro Model A part failure, but that is another story.

Since antique cars are not driven enough natural variations in temp through the day causes the fluid to seep past the seals. This causes the wheel cylinders to stop functioning if they are not used regularly over a period of a few years. The sad part is most owners just keep driving their cars with less than 100% braking. I made the mistake of asking a bunch of people at some car show one year. More cars than not were being driving with more than one wheel's brakes not working. I now try to make sure antique cars keep plenty of spacing behind me.

Something you may need to be aware of about your system, regardless of how you actuate it.

Your 3 shoe system most likely needs to have the lining sized to the drum for full contact area. You also need might need to be concerned with having the shoes all centered to the axle. For fixed post brake shoes, this is best done with a tool called the Barrett Brake Dokter. It is a disk sander that has a mount for the axle. You set the drum diameter on the movable center and mount it to the axle. Turn on the sander and spin the tool around the wheel. This sands the shoes to size and on center. It is a critical part of getting early brakes right.

A secondary method is a tool such as the Ammco brake archer, but that only arches the shoes to the diameter of the drum.

[Guest cben09]

What are you missing and have you looked for it

The shortcomming of the servo 3 shoe was that it had less grip in reverse,,so be prepared to assist with the hand brake,, the hand brake on these years was a good usable lever,,,not like later junk,,

Some[many/all] used diferent lining on the shoes,,primary/secondary,,

Ray Kunz wrote a good book and included a chapter on the 3 shoe brake,,,Cheers,,Ben

[Guest De Soto Frank]

What year and model vehicle are you working on ?

[alsfarms]

The vehicle I am working on, that is missing most of the external actuating parts, is an early 1928 Studebaker Commander. This chassis is going to be the base for building my rendition of a late 20's - early 30's Studebaker Indy car. I have a good share of the items I need but brakes are still a big wild card. I need to be able to stop as I do plan to do some competition with it when I am done. Ideas and help is appreciated.

Al

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Thanks for the additional information - I think it might help stimulate some helpful responses / discussion.

For what it's worth, I believe the '29-'30 Chevy sixes used three-shoe brakes; you might be able to adapt Chevrolet or other GM components ?

Were your Studebaker brakes rod or cable actuated ?

[Graham Man]

The biggest problem I have found is people using the wrong brake lining material. The pre brake booster cars have a lower system pressures so the brake lining needs to be more aggressive to stop the car correctly. “Woven Asbestos” is the normal pre 1935 lining (no longer available, for obvious reasons) but there are replacement materials that have similar coefficient of friction. Amazingly only in the last few years have brakes taken another technology jump. Otherwise any 4 wheel brake car from the 30’s should stop almost as well as most 80’s cars with the original style braking system properly maintained. I like the “Brake Place” in Minneapolis MN. I also recommend having the wheel and master cylinders relined with a stainless steel sleeve, it is reasonably priced and a great upgrade for longer lasting seals. In my book if it isn’t original it’s not the same. I would check the Studebaker web sight. These cars are being cut up every day for hot rods, this is the golden age to get original running gear for scrap price, keep looking, save a Studebaker today! even if it is only some original parts.

[alsfarms]

Hello Graham Man,

Thanks for your comments. My first idea was to track down all of the original mechanical brake linkage. I have had owners of a couple of the other Studebaker specials make a very good case for trusting your life to hydraulics. I think I am convinced. I am considering the use of as much of the original system as I can. We will see where that goes.

Thanks,

Alan

[paulrhd29nz]

When set up properly, the three shoe brakes will stop you car very well. The set up is a slow and carfull prosses. It will take up to 8 solid hours just to set them up, but when done properly you will stop well!!

The biggest draw back is the steel brake drums. They heat up and expand and your brakes fade and scare the bejesus out of you, But you will need to get to know how to use them. You do not just put your foot in it and keep pushing to slow down or stop. You must apply then back off, apply then back off ect. This alows the drum to stay cool and not expand to much. If you know how to use them the work realy well.

If you have the key Brake components in your car, meaning the "in frame cross tubes and the front axel arms" the rest can be made up with some rod and clevis yokes. The parts manuall for my Hudsons has exelent exploded veiws of the brake system, with enough info to easly make up all the levers, arms,brackets and rods.

If you find the set up on the front end to complex to recreate, put a front axel from a 29 on as most makes dropped the three shoe and went a simpler two shoe leaver opperated.

Paul

[Guest stude8]

Alan, I thought I sent you a CD previously with all this data on it but if not here it is again. All the Bendix 3 shoe system adjustments are shown clearly in these pages. Also a photo I made of a set of NOS linings on 1930 President Bendix shoes showing the secondary shoe has a different coefficient of friction compound than the Primary and Aux shoes.

Stude8

[alsfarms]

Hello Stude8, Thanks for attaching some very good information on the 3 brake shoe system. I have got a feeler out to see what the cost would be to have the original steel drums, on my Studebaker, recast in a good grade cast iron. I would include cooling fins as possible. I have had that done on a couple of other antiques. That would stop the brake fade issue defined above. Please refer to picture 3 above, and look at the identified actuation cam. I am trying to think if I would have a problem removing that cam device and modify the shoes to accept a wheel cylinder and thus converting a three shoe system to be hydraulic energized and not mechanical. Does anyone have thoughts or ideas. Please keep in mind, I am building a 1928 Studebaker Pres. 8 Indy special. My chassis is real sad, no operating arms, linkage pivots, etc for the front brakes.

Regards,

Alan

[Guest stude8]

After driving the #34 Studebaker at Milwaukee Mile track the brake experience is exciting at high speed. That car had 1931 ? Dictator 10-1/8" two shoe NON SELF ACTIVATING fixed anchor pin brakes, see the attached photos. They were cable activated and as often as I tweeked the cable length adjustment they changed action order every ten minutes. The car pulled right one lap and pulled left the next.

Later in life Grasis added an air intake scoop and finned drums to help cool them because he drives the car in road race events that really put a strain on heat reduction.

I recall Tony Gulotta telling about at Indy the brakes were only used to get it off the trailer arriving at the track.

I would hesitate to use self energizing 3 shoe brakes for real competition driving, pick up trucks used fixed anchor pin brakes for the reason with a load on board you don't want one or more wheels self-locking in a hard stop event.

The same goes for a race car.

A hydraulic system will be an advantage and cars like Valpey #37 use 1962 Buick cast iron finned drums.

Stude8

[alsfarms]

Hello Stude8,

I seem to learn from you guys with experience. The restorers make a point about using the original item. I am a restorer also. However, you make a VERY significant point about 3 shoe self energizing brakes, on a racer. No, I don't want any one of four brakes deciding to lock up and pull hard. On a race special, speed is very important but only equal to control, hence the need for good brakes. I thought I may try some form of resurrection on the original brakes....now it is a no. I would guess that even with a modified hydraulic system, it would be very important to use a priority valve to put a balance of system pressure between the front an rear axle.

Al

[Guest cben09]

Do we really think Packards pulled left and right when new and Packard deliverd em that way,,In owning nearly 40 Packards I think I would have noticed,,Only complaint was lack of brake power backwards,,Nice heavy drum with fins is good,,,Ben

[sambarn]

Alsfarm, If you give up on the very effective Bendix Three shoe(if i'm not mistaken, you are putting them in Buffalo Wire Wheels?) I would take any and all parts yiou have left over as I intend to drive the stew out of my 27 Marmon e-75 and could always use spares. Yes, when I adjusted them for the first time ( previously braking on one wheel) it took a few tries and wearing in to get them right but i can lock up all four tires evenly on pavement at speed as well as heel that 4500 pound speedster down to a smooth clean stop from around 55-60 easily and happily. In a day when front brakes were considered frivolous and potentially dangerous, these were the best around and the few Indy racers from the time I have seen did not have hydraulic brakes. As far as connection parts go, outside of the pedal/lever assembly, the brakes are all straight rod with threading and couplings/yokes -easy to build, easier to maintain. Good luck with the car and I'm still looking for one Buffalo Hub cap for the left (drivers) side. I don't need anything but a complete hub body, all the locking parts are there and functional these are the B-6 I believe. I have a set of four b-5s from a Stearns that are up for trade or sale but only if I can end up with that hub.

[alsfarms]

Hello Sam,

What body style is your Marmon E-75? They are nice cars! I will keep you in mind with left overs/take off three shoe brakes from my Studebaker. I have still got some significant engineering to do to have safe and workable brakes for the Indy Special.

Al

[sambarn]

I am lucky enough to own one of the EH Wilson built prototypes for the 27 model year,the speedster, the only factory 27 to come with 26 fenders on it. you can see it at the following conceptcarz site:

1927 Marmon Model E-75 Images, Information and History | Conceptcarz.com -

[Otahuhu]

My 1929 F29 Oldsmobile Tourer Model has 3 shoe Bendix brakes which I have travelled many miles under a number of conditions .The only modification is that I shrunk on some steel bands to assist the braking when they heat up while transversing some long downhill grades. The other mod was to cast some cast iron drums for the rear. If Bendix brakes are adjusted correctly braking is not an issue. Brakes on the Olds are as good as the power assisted brakes on my Stutz

[paulrhd29nz]

Otahuhu,

Tell us more about the cast drums you had made up for you 29 olds.

Were they for wires or wood spoke?

Paul

[JRA]

On 3/2/2011 at 2:50 AM, Otahuhu said:

My 1929 F29 Oldsmobile Tourer Model has 3 shoe Bendix brakes which I have travelled many miles under a number of conditions .The only modification is that I shrunk on some steel bands to assist the braking when they heat up while transversing some long downhill grades. The other mod was to cast some cast iron drums for the rear. If Bendix brakes are adjusted correctly braking is not an issue. Brakes on the Olds are as good as the power assisted brakes on my Stutz

What are these steel bands you mentioned Otahuhu? I am having a hard time to get the 3-shoe bendiz mechanical brakes adjusted in my 1929 Marmon.

[JRA]

On 2/24/2011 at 2:25 AM, Guest stude8 said:

Alan, I thought I sent you a CD previously with all this data on it but if not here it is again. All the Bendix 3 shoe system adjustments are shown clearly in these pages. Also a photo I made of a set of NOS linings on 1930 President Bendix shoes showing the secondary shoe has a different coefficient of friction compound than the Primary and Aux shoes.

Stude8

The Three Shoe Bendix Brakes material posted by Stude8 seems to be very comprehensive about Bendix brakes. Unfortunately, it doesn’t show the adjustment for Perrot system.

I have noticed Stude8 has not been in the forum for about 10 years, and he was a quite active contributor. I think his user was cancelled. Does anyone know about him? 
I would like to know what reference book is that, and if anyone can share the pages for the Bendix 3-shoe Perrot control type brakes. Many thanks!

[Gary_Ash]

Stude8 was John Shanahan of Harrisburg, IL.  Yes, he was very active in the forum for years.  Unfortunately, he is now deceased.

 

Diagrams and instructions for service are in the 1928-30 President Service Reference Library.

https://www.faxonautoliterature.com/1928-1930-Studebaker-President-Eight-Repair-Shop-Manual-Reprint

 

Here are the pages about adjusting the brakes:

 

 

Edited July 29 by Gary_Ash
added instruction pages (see edit history)

[JRA]

Thanks for your kind reply and reference document , @Gary_Ash

I am sad to know that John Shanahan is no longer among us, however, I am glad to see his contributions are still helping the hobby he enjoyed for many years. 
Certainly his posts in this thread will help me to adjust the brakes of my 1929 Marmon. Thanks to AACA for keeping this space live and vibrant for so many years.