Rebodied Packards

[Steve_Mack_CT]

So on the heels of the very informative thread on custom bodied Packards I am wondering if there is anyone else interested in learning about or sharing info on rebodied Packards. By this I mean a high quality reproduction of a desirable car such as the 34 Lebaron Phaeton referenced in the custom body thread. I know there are others, I believe some Darrins, etc.?

Purpose of this would not be to trash these cars or the idea, but learn about them, who built them, where they are, etc.

How many bodies did Fran Roxas do for Packards, for example. Google useless by the way for that info...

Have any of these been shown at AACA, CCCA or PAC events?

I find this area interesting. (see my thread on the buehrig Model A in restoration section - glad the builder eventually popped up here!)

Strictly info only as my bodywork skills are limited to a very nice wax and detail job!

[Guest John_Lawrence]

I remember seeing a mid-1930s Lebaron-style Packard convertible roadster at Pebble Beach a few years ago. It was lovely and totally in keeping with its heritage. As I recall, it was a true roadster style with an abbreviated fabric top. Maybe someone here has a photo of it.

(o{I}o)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Steve asks: How many bodies did Fran Roxas do for Packards, for example. Google useless by the way for that info...Have any of these been shown at AACA, CCCA or PAC events?

Here in north Jersey I believe there are 2 Roxas-bodied 1108 LeBaron phaetons and one 1106 roadster. Last time I saw one of these 1108 phaeton knock-offs at a show was the CCCA Grand Classic in Mt. Olive NJ about 5 years ago. I wish I would have had an authentic one side-by-side to compare, but if the work is well done, I think it's pretty hard to distinguish.

How many were made? Don't know but almost certainly more than were originally built.

[alsancle]

Here is a Roxas car.

[Owen_Dyneto]

He might brush up on his spelling, it's Le Baron.

[trimacar]

I remember seeing that Roxas Packard in Houston, when Jerry Moore owned it. I was visiting him for one reason or another, it was right after he'd bought the Bugatti Royale (which I later had a ride in, when it was owned by Tom Monaghan of Domino Pizza fame, who bought it from Jerry for around 14 million).

If I remember this right, part of Jerry's collection at the time was in a building behind his office. Walking in, in this area (not housing his whole collection, obviously), there were maybe 35 or 40 cars, and those consisted of nothing but V-12 Packards, V-16 Cadillacs, and Duesenbergs. I believe at one time he owned 20 or so Deusenbergs. It was quite an impressive sight, to say the least.

I heard later that he sold many of his Classics and started buying muscle cars.

[West Peterson]

Except for the dropped chassis, it's a very good looking job.

[Guest Packard12Man]

Steve Mack - In regards to your inquiry about re-bodied Packards, I know of at least 6 re-bodied 1106 speedsters and 10 re-bodied 1108 Phaetons. There are probably more. I think Fran Roxas has done most but not all. One of each was done 10 to 15 years ago by a collector in California. Two more re-bodies are in the process of being done by a restoration shop in New York state by the name of Platinum Classic's. The are 4 original Speedsters and 4 original Phaetons. With prices being in the multiple 7 figure range for an original there is obviously a large market for re-bodies. The re-bodies that I have seen in person are mostly all done to a very high standard. It would be difficult to tell them from the original. Surprisingly being as Dietrichs command the same dollar figure, I only know of one Dietrich copy. I am surprised that there are not more. If you would like some photo's I would be happy to e-mail them to you.

[West Peterson]

I'd say that the Custom Dietrichs bring about 1/3 of what the LeBarons bring.

[alsancle]

I'd say that the Custom Dietrichs bring about 1/3 of what the LeBarons bring.

+1 on the V12 Dietrichs. The multiplier on the straight 8 would be more like 4.

V12 Dietrichs bring 1 million plus.

Lebarons bring 3 million plus.

[Dave Mitchell]

I think really good Dietrichs have hit 2+ million. One just went for 1.8 and it was an old restoration. Good Supers have hit more that 1 million. The multiplier may actually be correct or even low if one of the Le Baron phaetons came up for sale, but the coupes don't seem to bring $3mill or more. I would also say that there are a number of replica Dietrichs. It seems like several people have owned one and suddenly found another one in a barn or maybe two. There are new runabout/convertible coupes, phaetons and convertible victorias and also upgrades from 8s to

12s. There is nothing wrong about that until someone tries to pass one off as real or when eventually someone forgets. When one of the fakes comes up for sale, it sometimes brings less, unless there is an uneducated buyer in the crowd.

[alsancle]

I think really good Dietrichs have hit 2+ million. One just went for 1.8 and it was an old restoration. Good Supers have hit more that 1 million. The multiplier may actually be correct or even low if one of the Le Baron phaetons came up for sale, but the coupes don't seem to bring $3mill or more. I would also say that there are a number of replica Dietrichs. It seems like several people have owned one and suddenly found another one in a barn or maybe two. There are new runabout/convertible coupes, phaetons and convertible victorias and also upgrades from 8s to

12s. There is nothing wrong about that until someone tries to pass one off as real or when eventually someone forgets. When one of the fakes comes up for sale, it sometimes brings less, unless there is an uneducated buyer in the crowd.

Dave, I think you are correct for the conv coupes. I know of one that sold private party a couple of years ago for 2 +.

[Guest Packard12Man]

DIETRICH PRICES The below photo's of 1108 32 was sold by RM in 2007 for $2,035,000 and this is a closed car. Not the forum to mention any names, or even the Dietrich I am talking about - a good source quoted 3.5 million in a private sale about 2 years ago. None of the original Le Baron Sport Phaetons have been on the market or are likely to be in the foreseeable future - heavens knows what one of these would bring today.

[Guest Packard12Man]

Dave, sometimes the fingers work faster than the brain - I am aware of some Dietrich re-bodies on Twin Sixes but my brain was in 1934. As to my knowledge, I have only heard of one re bodied - a '34. If there are other re-bodied Dietrich's on a 11th series Packard I'd be curious. But you learn something new everyday!

[K8096]

Got my latest CCCA Bulletin in the mail today. There are no less than three 1934 LeBaron's for sale in this issue - all repro bodies.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Thanks all for your postings and comments, exactly what I was looking for. The comments about Dietrich and Lebaron originals makes me wonder if the Lebarons are not the priciest American Classics? Can't think of anything other than that, not that it matters just interesting.

Brian, any additional pics you care to post is great.

Thanks, Steve

[K8096]

If one of the two short wheelbase supercharged Duesenbergs ever made it to auction ..........look out! I think you'd be looking at 10 million plus. And that's even for the one sporting the 1960's restoration.

[edinmass]

An original Le Baron Sport Phaeton could be purchased, as I am sure one could be had. At what price? I have no clue.

[alsancle]

If one of the two short wheelbase supercharged Duesenbergs ever made it to auction ..........look out! I think you'd be looking at 10 million plus. And that's even for the one sporting the 1960's restoration.

I agree. Also the Gurning Nutting SJ would be way out there.

If you want to go outside American Chassis, obviously the Royales, but the Trossi SSK might be the all timer evan against the Alantic price of 30 plus million.

Edited February 10, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Guest Packard12Man]

Steve, here are some photo's of re-bodied Le Baron Speedsters that you requested.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Great pictures, Brian, thanks for posting them!

BTW - your 39 V-12 club is a really cool body style - mentioned to a friend of mine with a '90 Mustang LX V-8 (20+ year owner, he bought it as a 1 year old car) that I thought you had an interesting combination of collector cars - he totally agreed!

[Guest Packard12Man]

Steve, attached are photo's of re-bodied 1108 Phaetons. I can only attached 7 of them as I do not have a photo of the one in New York that is being done as we speak and the other missing one is a lousy photo not worth uploading.

Tell your buddy I purchased my '88 Mustang new - it has approx 17,000 miles on it.

[edinmass]

I must admit I do not care for re-bodied cars, but all of the above look great, and I must admit that I would own one if it came up at what I think is a reasonable price. My taste is American big iron, and it's hard to beat the LaBaron cars. I sure do miss my 33........ such is life.

Edited February 12, 2011 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I must admit I do not car for re-bodied cars, but all of the above look great, and I must admit that I would own one if it came up at what I think is a reasonable price. My taste is American big iron, and it's hard to beat the LaBaron cars. I sure do miss my 33........ such is life.

Ed, the siren's song is hard to resist. By observation, a perfect replica on the correct chassis is usually 20 cents on the dollar but since the Lebarons and the 540k Special Roadsters have gone crazy it might be more like 10 cents on the dollar. I've thought over the quite a bit and ultimately I think you are better off spending the money on a correct but lesser bodied car. For me, having to explain the "story" would just be painful, and I would never try to pass it off as real as my conscious would kill me.

[Dave Mitchell]

The replicas, even very nicely done usually leave me cold. I got in trouble once judging one of the above phaetons - it was flawless and I gave the nod to the flawed real Le Baron phaeton sitting next to it. I have seen several Special Roadsters and other made up cars, and they are good looking and usually well done, and some recreate great cars that are lost except in photos, but to me, they are cars with no history, and that history is something that I really like. I can sit in a car or drive it or just look at it and wonder where it has been and who has been in it, what it looked like new...

I guess the other thing that bothers me is the cars that are lost to these recreations - 1108 sedans and limos, Cad 16 and Duesenberg town cars, sedans and limos, even MB Cab Bs - open cars made into roadsters. Usually, especially with the American cars, this was done to make money in the 80s and 90s. Hopefully that won't happen as much now, as these cars have dropped like a stone. The funny thing is that they are getting enough age on them that some need to be restored.

[trimacar]

Amen, Dave. I used to say that the rarest car on the planet would be a closed Duesenberg, as you mention, it seems like there was a flurry of rebody activity late last century.

I also wonder what happens to those closed bodies, are they just sitting in people's garage or warehouse?

That would be an interesting exhibit for a museum, to find 4 or 5 town car or limo bodies......

[Dave Mitchell]

I used to go to a plater in Chicagoland who was in a big warehouse and there was a beautiful limo body there from a Model J - which was the donor for an open body. It would have been an easy restoration and a great car - at least they didn't scrap it, but I doubt it will ever be put back on a J chassis. It would be fun to see those bodies in an exhibit somewhere. Unfortunately I bet a lot of them are gone to hide the evidence or because the guys who built these for profit didn't care about the history anyway.

[Guest Silverghost]

I know of several closed sedan "winter bodies" sitting on big heavy saw-horses in the general Philadelphia area.

These Classics still also exist today in their "Summer"touring form.

In the Philadelphia area, and other colder climates it was not unusual to have two bodies for the same high priced chassis.

Derham Body in Rosemont Pa ,as well as Brewster in NY , and I'm sure other coachbuilders would swap these bodies each spring & fall for their wealthy customers. Brewster used to store these seasonal bodies on their building's top floors. They had an auto turntable up there too!

Derham also had a special building for this seasonal body storage that burned-down in the late 1950s. I remember the building & the fire !

Often while in winter storage the body would get a fresh coat of "varnsh" or laquer .

I suspect there are still a few of these closed sedan & towncar bodies still sitting in hiding somewhere ! ?

There is an original Duesenberg Model "J" Murphy Clearvision sedan currently for sale in Washington State.

It is one of the very few closed sedan Model "J"s still in original coach form !

It was once owned new by Harold Pitcairn a very wealthy Pennsylvania industialist who started & owned Pittsburg Plate Glass & Pittsburg Paints , as well as Philadelphia trolly trnsportation lines. He & his Father started American Air Lines and the first early eastern US Air Mail routes. A K Miller, the famous Stutz hoarder once flew a Pitcairn autogyro air mail aircraft for them !

A K Miller had two Pitcairn autogyros stashed away~~~

One was the famous Miss Champion Spark-Plug. The other auto gyro he actually flew himself to Washington DC & donated it to the forerunner of the Smithsonan National Air & Space Museum !

The gigantic Pitcairn mansions are still in my neighborhood in Bryn Athen PA.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Mahoning63]

Just to play devil's advocate, at what point in time, or style of body, or chassis, does it become wrong to rebody? Wealthy people back in the 30s rebodied classic cars and most everyone then, like now, gave it a thumbs up. For example, the Duesenberg Victoria by Graber, done around 1937 on I think a 1930 or 31 chassis, is a valued historical treasure. So is Darrin's '38 Town Car on the '32 Rolls Royce Ph II. With this in mind, let's say it's 2011 and someone rebodies a '36 Packard. A beautiful design in the eyes of most observers. Now, flash forward 500 years. The car is sitting in a museum, or being shown at a concours, or a part of someone's private collection. Admirers, many or few, relish the timelessness of the art and engineering, and reflect on both date when the chassis was made and the date when the rebody was made, and fit it all into the world in which they now live. A world where traditional coachbuilding skills don't exist anymore, or maybe where they do... at the hands of a robot, where anyone can dial up any design they want. Amidst all this history and change, they admire and treasure as historical the 575 year old chassis and 500 year old body, which they consider to both have come, for all intents and purposes, from the same historical time period. Isn't timelessness timeless? If so, is it not acceptable to strive for that which is timeless, any time, so long as there remain well preserved representative examples of original works?

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Just to play devil's advocate, at what point in time, or style of body, or chassis, does it become wrong to rebody? Wealthy people back in the 30s rebodied classic cars and most everyone then, like now, gave it a thumbs up. For example, the Duesenberg Victoria by Graber, done around 1937 on I think a 1930 or 31 chassis, is a valued historical treasure. So is Darrin's Town Car on the Rolls Royce Ph II. With this in mind, let's say it's 2011 and someone rebodies a '36 Packard. A beautiful design in the eyes of most observers. Now, flash forward 500 years. The car is sitting in a museum, or being shown at a concours, or a part of someone's private collection. Admirers, many or few, relish the timelessness of the art and engineering, and reflect on both date when the chassis was made and the date when the rebody was made, and fit it all into the world in which they now live. A world where traditional coachbuilding skills don't exist anymore, or maybe where they do... at the hands of a robot, where anyone can dial up any design they want. Amidst all this history and change, they admire and treasure as historical the 575 year old chassis and 500 year old body, which they consider to both have come, for all intents and purposes, from the same historical time period. Isn't timeless timeless? If so, isn't it acceptable to strive for that which is timeless, any time, so long as there remain well preserved representative examples of original works?

The counter to this argument is the one the CCCA uses which is modifications by known coach builders "in period" are acceptable. The examples you cite would fall under this view of things. Reproduction Brunn Torpedo's built in the 1980s by restoration houses would fail under both criterion. However, there is a sliding scale, the Harrah Boattail built by Chris Schwartz in the 1950s certainly has more pedigree then a 1980s body but less then if the car was done by Bonhman and Schwartz prewar.

[Mahoning63]

Is the sliding scale subject to change with time? Is "in period" a relative span of years, also subject to change? Everything seems so arbitrary in the big picture scheme of things, linked very much to the people of the day who set the criteria. Reminds me of the restomods shown at auction of late, and the stories about how classic car enthusiasts at first looked with some disfavor on them but are now beginning to see them as a new type of vehicle worthy of high praise and price.

Let's say someone rebodies a classic car with a never before seen design, something that was "possible" back in the day but never realized. And let's say that all materials and construction practices were of a type, and only of a type, that existed back in the day. Where would such a vehicle fall? Just to name an example, and I could name dozens, let's say someone removes the faux running boards from the Clipper? Or swaps out the Clipper grill with a '40-41 vertical grill? Or maybe they take a '52 Packard convertible and make a low-slung 2-row (6-passenger rather than 3 passenger) Pan American? A new design inspired by the original times but not an exact reproduction of any one specific car.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Mahoning63 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Is the sliding scale subject to change with time? Is "in period" a relative span of years, also subject to change? Everything seems so arbitrary in the big picture scheme of things, linked very much to the people of the day who set the criteria. Reminds me of the restomods shown at auction of late, and the stories about how classic car enthusiasts at first looked with some disfavor on them but are now beginning to see them as a new type of vehicle worthy of high praise and price.

There are no hard and fast rules as to how the market gauges value so the sliding scale would change over time. But I think "in period" is a pretty tight definition when talking Classics because of WWII. I do understand your point that many years from now, the distinction between 1939 and and 1951 may not seem that great. But if we try to use great artwork from the 15th or 16th century, even today we try to distinguish the work of a Master from that of his protege, no?

As for restomods, hotrods, specials, etc, those also have a sliding scale on value. A documented time capsule hot rod "in period" i.e. built in the 1950s by a known builder commands a premium over the same car built today.

[Mahoning63]

"master, protege"... great observation. Fully agree.

On the car values I agree that an exact reproduction will be worth less than an orginal, all other factors being equal.

Folks like Foose have been able to ratchet up their car values with good original design, craftsmanship and marketing.

[Dave Mitchell]

For me, it is a couple of things - the history, and also building a car today isn't quite the same as building it in the 30s, so I have more "respect" for the original. There are a number of cars that have been built from designs that were done and not built in the 30s, but I have to apply the same standards to them.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Agree Dave. A modern interpretation of what could have been built, even using period running chassis and running gear to me is a "resto mod or resto rod" or "recreation" - not that I don't appreciate the work, but not my thing. Not too different from the retro designs on the new Mustangs. etc. but that is just my opinion.

Agree also on even the most faithful rebodies, I find them interesting (obviously to start this thread) but no matter how faithfully crafted they lack the history. Same reasons a civil war repoduction item will never equal the real thing even if flawless in execution. Or more along automotive lines, same reasons a perfect reproduction of a desirable porcelin sign is just not the real thing. At least the faithfull reporduction body replicates something of historic significance. An orginal design, no matter how talented will not have historic significance.

[Guest bkazmer]

The Esders (sp?) Royale and the Flynn Clipper convertible are a class that I don't mind. They are recreations of lost but real vehicles and presented as such. Part of the reaction to such vehicle shas to do with what was sacrificed to build them. The Royale was built I believe starting from "spare parts" and the Clipper from a car which has many other surviving examples.

[alsancle]

The Esders (sp?) Royale and the Flynn Clipper convertible are a class that I don't mind. They are recreations of lost but real vehicles and presented as such. Part of the reaction to such vehicle shas to do with what was sacrificed to build them. The Royale was built I believe starting from "spare parts" and the Clipper from a car which has many other surviving examples.

I agree with your sentiments with regards to the Esders Royale. The Schrumpf brothers bought out the factory so they had access to many original parts. The engine is from a rail car. However, if an original Royale is worth 20 - 30 million dollars, this car would be discounted heavily I'm sure. It does have the advantage that there probably won't be any more reproductions.

[Highlander160]

Very interesting topic. New coachwork, as I refer to it, should be an endeavor that pays respect to the early craftsmen and designers. The very few OEM examples are seldom seen at times. When you do, clearly you know it if you follow histories and numbers. That aside, let's talk about the missing "pedigree" of new coachwork. I feel it's now an example of today's craftsmen and enthusiasts. While the design may be the only thing copied, the art form of construction and related restoration is something to be admired. That means the builder/restorer needs to be as faithful as humanly possible in every detail. Let's assume there's other bodies built by someone other than Fran Roxas. Which body is worth more? The better one. The more authentic representation. The balance of the car treated to the same love and attention to detail lacks only the history of ownership. Now it has it's own place in time and should be a tip of the hat to Mr. Dietrich, and a tip of the hat to the restorer. Value is something that really should be removed from such an aesthetic undertaking. Whether you write the check or swing the hammer, it just doesn't happen unless you're all in. I never considered new coachwork as "fake" or "faux". It's paying a substantial tribute and the ability to enjoy something that may simply be unavaiable. Is that so bad? I also agree that in organizations like AACA and CCCA, authenticity and heritage is a sincere percentage of the cars displayed/judged. I also think that any new coachwork version could easily be judged as tight as the gennie but in it's own class. Same paint, same leather, same materials, same drivelines. I don't think any of them should ever be "cast off" at an organized event. Just my opinion. I'd drive one in a heartbeat...

[K8096]

I don't have as much a problem with new bodies as long as they don't destroy an original car to make it - even if it is a 7 passanger limousine in poor condition - and the person admits it is a recreation. There are still quite a few bare chassis out there. You have to do something with them don't you? One that I like is the purple P III Rolls slant back coupe. I believe this was made from a drawing from the late 1930's but was never made originally. There are two one off DV-32 Stutz cars that I wouldn't mind seeing made again - the 2 passanger Waterhouse coupe, and the Brunn "Patrician" 5 passanger coupe. Both of these are "lost" cars.

Edited February 16, 2011 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

The purple PIII was fashioned after a car in a modern painting done by Jack Juratovic. I would agree that the craftsmanship and paint/upholstery/chassis work can be very nice on new caochwork cars, and I would like to see them in a special class, and I think judging them against other new coachwork cars is fine, in fact I argued for that when I was on the CCCA board. However, I still think that it isn't the same as doing it in the 1930s given the technology and equipment that we have now. There are definitely varying levels of quality on new coachwork cars - I have seen some Bentleys that aren't that great, and some Packard and Duesenbergs that looked pretty bad not that long after they were built.

New coachwork is a good name and widely accepted - I argued that the CCCA should adopt that also. The cars become fakes when someone passes one off as real, or tries to, which has happened all too often.