'52 Roadmaster: A Laundry List

[Malo48]

On page 84 of the '52 Shop Manual (section 3-7c) it says there's an additional screen in the bowl of Series 70 fuel pumps.

If you find that the fuel pump needs rebuilding, the rebuild kit should have a replacement screen and you can change it then.

[JohnD1956]

Not specifically. When I drained the oil from the crankcase a couple of weeks ago I didn't detect any gasoline smell. One thing was kind of weird, though- the oil in the filter element housing was a kind of dark olive color. What drained out of the crankcase looked just like plain dirty dark oil.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this oil change was when the car was running, right? Since the car does not run now, you should pull the dipstick and whiff for gasoline now. If you find any, that could be an indicator of a torn diaphram in the fuel pump.

But if you do not detect any, another possibility is rust through of the fuel line so the fuel pump pulls air. This may be detectable when/if you blow air back through the gas line to the tank.

[Cubelodyte]

Yeah, it was only after the oil drain/change that I found the engine no longer caught. I just pulled the stick and gave it several really long whiffs but can't detect any gasoline odor.

I'm not sure what you mean about rust being detectable when the line back to the tank got blown. I used about 20psi of air to blow the line back from where it enters the pump and it burbled just fine in the tank, so it's not crimped or otherwise obstructed (at least, it isn't obstructed now.

So I took the settling bowl off of the bottom of the fuel pump and looked at the brass screen therein- the screen was just fine and not clogged at all.

I did, however, find that the interior of the bowl was pitted (no idea how) and there was about a third of a tablespoon of rust particles sitting in there as well. I haven't yet blown the fuel line from the pump to the carb.

While I certainly don't rule out the possibility of the pump having gone bad somehow, it was most definitely serviced recently. What "recently" means, I can't tell, but the pump completely lacks the grime that still coats the rest of the engine and crankcase down there.

Maybe it was collected rust blocking the line? I dunno. I'll try reassembling the filter (I need to find or make a new bowl gasket) and see what happens.

Also... another dependency. Darn it. As I was fiddling with the compression nut on the pump, I leaned a little on one of the hoses going to the passenger-side floor heater, and it cracked, so I guess I'm off to replace several feet of that.

[Cubelodyte]

Here's a top-down picture of the pump to indicate what I mean about the lack of grime, leading me to think it's been rebuilt fairly recently.

[buick5563]

Wait a second, Cube. That looks upside down. The hoses would be on the bottom, wouldn't they?

[Cubelodyte]

Yeah; those are the vacuum lines you're looking at. The inlet to the pump is obscured by the negative battery strap and the outlet tube is just to the right of the... uh.. round silvery thing.

Oh, off-topic about cars, per se, but last week I submitted my info and payment for the BCA online. Should I expect to hear anything back from them via e-mail, or should I just be waiting for the Bugle and all the other stuff to arrive via regular mail? I'm kind of disappointed that I haven't even received so much as a "hey we got your application" message.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Cubelodyte (see edit history)

[buick5563]

Vacuum wipers...duh. I need to stay out of things I don't know about. It just didn't look right for some reason.

You can call or email them and find out, I suppose. I agree that good communication would be reassuring. Welcome aboard.

[Guest Koala]

After reading through your posts on your fuel problem leaves me to think that you should have a look at the two valves in the fuel pump. To test whether the valves are working you should be able to detect a vacuum when holding your finger over the inlet (tank) side of the pump while turning the engine over on the starter. The valves are just a little round flapper thing with a spring to hold it closed, sometimes they can get bits of rust caught in them or the spring break and fall out. I have even found faulty new valves in a kit recently purchased. :mad:

Koala

[JohnD1956]

Yeah, it was only after the oil drain/change that I found the engine no longer caught. I just pulled the stick and gave it several really long whiffs but can't detect any gasoline odor.

I'm not sure what you mean about rust being detectable when the line back to the tank got blown. I used about 20psi of air to blow the line back from where it enters the pump and it burbled just fine in the tank, so it's not crimped or otherwise obstructed (at least, it isn't obstructed now.

QUOTE]

The gas in the oil would have stood out with that diagnostic, and the air going to the tank indicates the line is not clogged.

What I meant by detecting the rust through of the fuel line to the tank was, if you had a developing rust hole in the fuel line, chances are the compressed air would have opened the fracture and spit some gas or debris on the ground under the car.

Sounds like you got some other good ideas here.

[Cubelodyte]

What I meant by detecting the rust through of the fuel line to the tank was, if you had a developing rust hole in the fuel line, chances are the compressed air would have opened the fracture and spit some gas or debris on the ground under the car.

Oh, okay. That makes perfect sense.

Things are stalled right now until I get a few parts. As I mentioned, one of the lines running to (or maybe from, I guess it doesn't really matter right now) the passenger-side floor heater is completely ruptured, and when the gasket to the fuel pump settling bowl dried, it dried into a funny shape. I could probably soak it in gasoline to get it pliable again, but I figure it's a good idea to get a new gasket anyway, just on general principles, before I reassemble the bottom of the pump.

* sigh *

One thing leads to another...

[1957buickjim]

Welcome to the wonderful world of restoring a classic car. You are now a fully chartered member of the fraternity! Sooner or later you do run out of things that lead to another, most likely because you have purchased, repaired and rebuilt any and all of the things more than once until they work. Oh yeah, don't forget that you usually will have bought more than one of the things in case the one you have breaks / fails / stops working for no reason..add your explanation here.. And when all that is done..you get another project and start the cycle over.

Someone once told me that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results..sometimes restoring an old car is living proof of that.

Congratulations and good luck. Way to keep us posted on the progress..

[Cubelodyte]

Well, it looks like it's the fuel pump. I blew 12psi of air through the line from the pump outlet with no problem. I made a new pump settling bowl gasket, reassembled the bottom housing, and had somebody turn the engine over while I kept my fingertip on the pump inlet. I didn't feel one bit of suction, so I guess I have to rebuild the pump. Darn it.

[Cubelodyte]

Random question: did the crankcase breather/oil filler cap bear a decal in 1952? I can't tell for certain.

[Bill Stoneberg]

I'm kind of disappointed that I haven't even received so much as a "hey we got your application" message.

You should have received a message tanking you for your payment and telling you that it will be 3 -6 weeks before seeing a Bugle, depending on where in the cycle you applied. Did you see that ?

Also, you will get a membership card and decal from the main office towards the end of the month as thats when the office runs new members so you will get the next bugle. If you want to drop me a private message with your name, I can check for you.

As far as a fuel pump goes, are you getting fuel into the filter you showed a picture of earlier ? If so, your pump is working.

[Cubelodyte]

Ah yes, in the interim (I wrote that a month ago), my BCA letter, card, and decal have all arrived. I never got any correspondence about my application or payment until after I contacted BCA about it. I was told to expect my first Bugle at the beginning of the month, but it hasn't yet arrived. Thanks for the offer, though!

No, no fuel seemed to be going through the pump. I'm two-thirds of the way through the rebuild process. I don't have an extra pair of hands that can keep the rocker arm flexed long enough for me to screw the fuel bowl onto the pump. Hopefully a buddy of mine will be available tomorrow to help.

[Cubelodyte]

Welp,

Having rebuilt the fuel pump, I'm finding it impossible to get the fuel inlet fitting together. No matter how I turn the brass fitting, or fiddle with the nut, or push the line up into the fitting, the threads on the nut just don't seem to want to engage. I've tried getting at it from above and below without success.

I thought that perhaps the threads on the nut were stripped, but I don't think this looks stripped to me... it looks alright in that the taper of the nut threads aligns perfectly with the end of the tube flare when it's advanced to the end of the tube.

Does this look okay to all you guys?

[Guest shorttimer]

My guess would be that the fuel pipe is not lined up perfectly with the fitting. I had a similar issue with replacement brake lines threading into a stationary junction block. I found it easier to loosen the junction block and thread the new lines in once I had some play to work with in both parts.

That may not be possible in your situation, but thought I would mention it just in case.

[Malo48]

Cube, were you able to connect the line to the pump? I had a similar problem; the threads on the pump fitting were messed up, which kept the nut from engaging (I probably cross-threaded it). I got a new fitting at NAPA, installed it similar to how Shorttimer suggested and all is well. And leak-free.

[Cubelodyte]

I got a fitting from NAPA which went into the inlet perfectly (though it was an elbow), cut seven inches off the copper tube, and ran rubber from the inlet to the new end of the tube.

But still no love. The carb isn't getting any fuel. I guess I could have rebuilt the pump incorrectly but when I was moving the lever manually after I rebuilt it (but before I bolted it back to the crankcase) I was getting suction at the inlet.

So... if the lines aren't clogged and assuming I didn't screw up the pump rebuild... I'm stumped. Do I have to prime the pump/line or something?

[JohnD1956]

If it were my car, I would be wondering about that copper fuel line. Was that original? or was it something someone fabricated afterward? Also, would the fuel line be solid right up to the fuel pump on the engine? I see you have rubber hose in there now, but if there was a solid line up to the engine it seems to me that the line would be flexing quite a bit and you could still have a crack in the line, allowing the pump to suck air.

[Malo48]

If it were my car, I would be wondering about that copper fuel line. Was that original? or was it something someone fabricated afterward? Also, would the fuel line be solid right up to the fuel pump on the engine? I see you have rubber hose in there now, but if there was a solid line up to the engine it seems to me that the line would be flexing quite a bit and you could still have a crack in the line, allowing the pump to suck air.

That line looks original to me. The one on my car looks almost identical; a rigid copper-plated line at the pump.

Maybe there's a blockage in the line from the pump to the carb?

-Mike

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Straight 8 Buicks use a flex line, similiar to a brake hose, from the frame to the pump. Many were replaced with just such a hose as we see here.

Line not plugged does not mean it could not be sucking air. Perhaps try a "motor cycle " tank, or some such, sitting on the fender with a hose attached to the pump suction. This should prove or disprove the pump. A lawn mower tank will work as well.

Ben

[Cubelodyte]

I don't know if the copper line that once ran all the way up to the pump was original or not, since I'm still relatively new to the old Buick scene. I can tell you that there is a flexible line between the hard (apparently steel) line the runs from the tank to the chassis and the copper line that runs along the block:

After having raised this issue with some other folks I think there's two different ways to test what's going on:

• Test the pump: drop the rubber line from the pump directly into a small supply of gasoline- if there's any proper suction at all it shouldn't take much effort for it to be propelled to the carburetor (First Born's idea- thanks).
  
• Artificial Respiration: Assuming the pump's okay, disconnect the line into the carb and feed gas from an alternate source directly down a barrel and start the engine. Keep the alternate supply going until, finally, the line to the carb emits gas.
  

... the operating theory of the second method is that the rebuilt pump is okay and will eventually suck up the fuel from the tank, but it needs help, and just plain ol' cranking off the battery isn't going to be enough.

Thoughts?

[buick5563]

Personally, I don't think it is original. From what I have read elsewhere, you shouldn't use copper for fuel line as it becomes brittle. Just a thought.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Mike is correct. An ammendment to my previous post. I did not proof read it. The original line from the hose pictured to the pump would have been steel. Many times "back in the day", [i dislike that phrase], if this steel line was damaged, it was replaced with copper, as copper was easier to bend. One of my '50s had copper, with a curl in it, from frame to pump.

Keep at it and you will win, cube. Ben

[JohnD1956]

I

After having raised this issue with some other folks I think there's two different ways to test what's going on:

• Test the pump: drop the rubber line from the pump directly into a small supply of gasoline- if there's any proper suction at all it shouldn't take much effort for it to be propelled to the carburetor (First Born's idea- thanks).
  
• Artificial Respiration: Assuming the pump's okay, disconnect the line into the carb and feed gas from an alternate source directly down a barrel and start the engine. Keep the alternate supply going until, finally, the line to the carb emits gas.
  

... the operating theory of the second method is that the rebuilt pump is okay and will eventually suck up the fuel from the tank, but it needs help, and just plain ol' cranking off the battery isn't going to be enough.

Thoughts?

For me this raises the question of how long did you crank it to try and start it? I automatically assumed you cranked it for at least three to six seconds several times. If not, you could try dripping a small amount of fuel directly down the carb throat while everything is hooked up, and see if it starts and runs on it's own eventually. Again, I would try this only a few times ( like 5 or less) with only a small amount of gas down the carb, like no more than one or two ounces each time.

If you disconnect the fuel line to confirm supply you're liable to have quite a spill on your hands if the system does pump the fuel eventually. And if the car starts and continues to run, then there would be no reason to question the fuel lines or pump.

[Cubelodyte]

Yes, I cranked it for about 3-4 seconds at a time several times.

Here's what I did today:

I spent a little bit of time putting gas down the carb and turning it over, just to see if the thing would finally do what it's supposed to, but no luck. So I removed the new rubber line from the copper tube, stuck it into a mason jar full of gasoline, put a bit more fuel in the carb, and started it up. It worked! The thing caught and went into a fast idle before it died. A quick check of the jar showed the pump had sucked up all the fuel the hose could reach.

I refilled the jar and tried it again, with the same results. So the pump seems to work. I figured I just hadn't given the pump enough time, perhaps.

While I was under there to reconnect the line, I saw that the rubber line from the chassis line (steel) to the block line (copper) looked wet. I hadn't seen it look like that before. The moisture smelled like gas. Well, I thought, maybe I'd managed to splash it with gas from the jar when I got sloppy? It seemed unlikely, but you never know, so I dabbed at it with a rag only to see the following happen:

So fuel was finally getting that far, at any rate, after having been dry for a couple of weeks. When I removed the rubber (which appears to be brake line) gas dribbled out. So I think I've found my culprit: a cracked hose ruining my vacuum pressure. I went to Napa to see about finding some female-to-barbed connectors to run new rubber between the two, but they didn't have any. I got some 5/16" steel brake line and am going to replace the copper and the faulty rubber tomorrow.

[JohnD1956]

Most likely that is the problem. You probably need to keep flexible fuel line there for vibration of the engine in the frame. Just pull the hose out and then slip a piece of fuel line over the flared end of the existing fuel line. Then clamp it down to seal the hose to the lines.

[Cubelodyte]

...and that's exactly what I did!

And here's the result:

I drove it around the block and definitely want to go over the brakes as my next project. The tires are old and cracking in some places, but I have a question about them. According to my reading of the shop manual, the Series 70 should take 800-15s. What's currently on there are 820-15s. Not knowing much about tires, what's the difference?

[Roadmaster75]

8.20's would be just a smidge taller and wider overall....... should pose no problems.

I put 8.20s on my 58 Roadmaster just to get more meat on the pavement.

INMO, going to 8.20s is just a personal preference.

Mike

[buick5563]

However, they may rub the inner fenders on a sharp turn, as in cutting hard to park, with larger tires.

[Cubelodyte]

Okay. Food for thought. Next question: is there any particular whitewall width range that would be considered "correct" for 1952? For some reason 3" seems about right to me, but I have no idea if that's anywhere close to reality or not.

[buick5563]

2 1/2" looks less gangster-like, especially if you decide on radials. I know that is correct for 55's, can't help you on your particular application.

That was some high tech moving pic stuff BTW (above). I just saw it on my desktop instead of on my iphone. Kinda made me realize why my phone was acting funny trying to read your earlier post.

Glad you got it sorted. It's looking good.

[Cubelodyte]

What's the general consensus, if there is any, on using rust conversion products like POR-15 or the stuff Eastwood sells? Does it really work as advertised?

I ask because I'm about to have the tires taken off the wheels so I can give the wheels a good cleaning and repainting. If POR-15 or its competitors really do what they say, it seems like it would be a good idea to make use of such products.

[Roadmaster75]

POR-15 is an excellent "paint over rust" encapsulator.....

Brushing it over rusty scaly metal chemically turns the rust into a hard

black coating and will not rust further.

I have used it since it was first introduced for this purpose.

If your wheels are laden with surface rust and you don't wish to blast them

then POR15 is a good alternative. However, POR15 is expensive....

I only use it where traditional priming and painting just won't work....

I did the whole rear floor of my 49 Willys Jeepster in POR15; which was heavily surface rusted and scaly (but not rusted through). That was 11 years ago and it still looks like new...

Mike

[Malo48]

Great video - that sound warms the heart!

I've used POR15 in the past with good results; like Mike, I used it where blasting/brushing was impractical. I have some of the Eastwood rust products but haven't used them yet to give a review.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Malo48 (see edit history)

[Cubelodyte]

I couldn't help that notice the battery seemed a little run-down after all the (formerly) fruitless cranking that happened before I fixed the fuel system. So I took out my old battery charger and set it to 6V/6A (its only 6V setting), hooked it up, and let it charge. Within a couple hours or so I heard bubbling sounds coming from the battery.

Not like it was boiling or anything, just bubbling now and again. The fluid level is fine, and the battery never got hot, but I got paranoid and didn't let the charger do the entire job. Was I worrying for nothing? Maybe I should get a charger that puts out a lower amperage? It's a fairly new (or certainly looks new) 6V "Workaholic" from Interstate. All my previous battery-charging has been with 12V systems...

[Malo48]

The occasional bubbling isn't much to worry about as long as the battery doesn't get hot or boil over. I had been using an old 6V/6A charger that finally gave up the ghost, and the new replacement charges at 1.5V. And cheap, too.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Malo48 (see edit history)

[Cubelodyte]

I'm about to replace the brake hoses, since I've no idea how old they are, and would rather not find out the hard way that they should have been replaced. After I do this, I figure I'll need to bleed the heck out of the brake lines. Based on my cursory research, I assume DOT 3 is equivalent/okay, but is it? After reading that recent sticky thread about antifreeze, I grew hesitant, just in case...

[Malo48]

DOT 3 will be fine; you could use DOT 4 since they're compatible but I use 3 with no problems. I've not used silicone DOT 5 since I remember hearing that the rubber components would have to be changed over. Other folks on here probably have better input than I, though.

Have you checked the other brake components like the wheel and master cylinders, springs, etc? Since you'll have the hoses off, it's the ideal time to inspect them too.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Malo48 (see edit history)