56 overheating problems

[Guest gunjeep444]

Drove the 56 Roadmaster over to the next town and experienced overheating problems. Had not had this before around town, warmed up some in line waiting on a drink at the drive in, but it cooled back down then.

I figured to replace the thermostat and go ahead and have the radiator looked at, any other suggestions?

One guy told me to just use water in the summer, no antifreeze, but doesn't that help lubricate the water pump?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Most likely problem is radiator. Save your self some time and headaches and have it cleaned. It should be fairly easy to pull. Then take to a radiator shop. They will clean, inside and out, and pressure test.

You definnatelywant to use antifreeze summer and winter. Plain water will corrode, among other sins.

Good luck

Ben

[JohnD1956]

Look online or where-ever for an inline filter for the antifreeze. I don't know how long your car sat before you started to drive it, but if a few years, chances are you are getting scale pieces pushed into the top tank on the radiator. I bought one for the top radiator hose in my 56 and it caught a ton of stuff and saved me the hassle of having to constantly pull my radiator for a cleaning.

If you can't find one, then stretch some panythose over the top radiator hose port before installing the hose. Just make sure you clean this often till you start to see less scale.

[Guest gunjeep444]

Thanks guys. I tested the thermostat and it seemed to be fine. So I did pull the radiator, pretty gunky crap came out the bottom, once it was out. Will take it over to the shop in the nearest town with one and have it gone over. Will use this chance to paint in the engine compartment.

What is the best way to clean things up. Any Buick green type paint available locally, something that is close in Krylon/Rustoleum colors?

[BuickCrazy]

Barnes

In the photo of your car, it appears to sit low. How did you accomplish this ride height? Please share.

Randy

[Guest gunjeep444]

Randy,

The guy I got it from cut a coil off each spring, is what he told me. Rides rougher like that, so depends on what you want. I like it low!

[buick5563]

I can't remember the actual name of the locally available engine spray paint, but I know it is a Ford color...Maybe Ford diesel green? It's close enough for your purposes.

I like it low, looks good.

[The Old Guy]

The color is 1603 Ford green , and it is not available in this area any more. I don't think they are making it according to the local hardware store.

[Guest gunjeep444]

I'll check with the Ford dealer. Thanks! Dropped off the radiator today, he looked inside and said it was pretty gunky.

[buick5563]

Jerry, try Auto Zone, Pep Boys, they might have old stock. Clean all of your engine parts with a degreaser first, paint won't stick to grease. Even think about pulling the valve covers and getting them really clean then respray. If the valve covers look good, the engine looks clean. RockAuto Auto Parts has gaskets if you want to pull the intake, too...then you can degrease and paint the valley pan as well.

[Guest NikeAjax]

You may want to back flush your engine too:

When I first bought my '56, from the original owners, it had been sitting for A LONG, LONG TIME, the lady was waving and crying saying that it was part of the family as we drove off... If that's the way they treat family, RUN! When I had the engine rebuilt, it needed to be boiled-out three times: the guy at the shop who had been doing engine work for over 25-years, said he'd never seen an engine, ever, plugged like that, after which, I still had to go in with a long screwdriver and hammer, and get more gunk out...

Anyway, make sure when you open the water-petcocks on the side of the block, water comes out really fast: there are two on either side of the block right in the middle, near the oil-pan. Fully open, they should allow water to flow freely, if nothing comes out, your water jacket is clogged up! A lot of people don't know about these valves, and they're super great when you want to make sure your engine has an empty cooling system.

Just a thought,

Jaybird

[Guest gunjeep444]

Thanks for the info Jaybird. I knew there were drains, but figured they were bolts. I'll look for the petcocks and drain the block also, if they open up! Been cleaning the engine, found Easy Off oven cleaner did the best job at cutting through 50 years of grease/dirt. Tried a Gunk spray can it did some good, but not as good as the easy off. Sure like these forums, you guys have helped me a LOT!

[Guest NikeAjax]

BTW, I found some paint for the oven/ice-box for my old trailer, it's Ford Green: Dupli-Color Engine Enamel, Ford Green #DE1617 supposed to be 500-degree-paint. Now you know what to ask for!

Jaybird

[Guest NikeAjax]

Jerry, just in case you were wondering:

Jaybird

[Fr. Buick]

I would take the drain fittings on the sides of the block out completely. They are a brass fitting with pipe thread, and no risk in removing them.

Anyway I did that on a low-miles '54 Super and got a bunch of rust sediment out that way, and it never would have made it out the little holes in the pep-cock.

Run water with a garden hose through every possible hose and hole, even plugging things up in different ways to get the water to flow. Do this even for the heaters (valve open) and Dynaflow cooler. Fill it with water and drive for a few outings. Flush again, fill and drive. If cooling is still a problem, try the radiator cleaning and filter as mentioned above.

Keep a very good eye on the heater valve uder the dash and the defroster core, as they may start leaking in the process.

Hope that helps,

Doug Cook

[Guest gunjeep444]

Thanks Doug, once I can get it back out of the garage, I will try all of that stuff. Painted on the compartment today, since it was all clean. Waiting on Buick green for the engine, should come in next week from CARS.

[buick5563]

Any Buick green type paint available locally, something that is close in Krylon/Rustoleum colors?

For people wanting to know why we have suggested Ford green instead of Buick green... This was the original question! Yes, as Jerry states later in this thread, Buick green IS available......by mail.

[Guest gunjeep444]

Got the radiator back today, he said it was not too bad, so any other ideas? Any easy way to check to see if the water pump is okay? Reading, they seem to be a big pain to change, as opposed to my old Mustangs.

[JohnD1956]

Water pumps are no problem to change on these, but careful with rebuilts. There have been some threads about the vanes being cleaned and cut thus making them a bit smaller and less capable of moving coolant efficiently. I found a nice NOS one at the Swap meet in Flint in 2003 and I remember there being several more around. Maybe ther will be some this year too.

[JohnD1956]

One other thought, we have been concentrating on the coolant. Incorrect timing and vacuum leaks can also cause overheating at idle.

[old-tank]

A few points:

Your water pump is not the problem unless it is leaking. If the cast impeller is not hitting the water pump housing or block when installed it will move water effectively.

Stay away from NOS unless you need a good core to rebuild. The seals and grease in the bearings are 56 years old and will soon fail.

Is the engine actually running hot (boiling over with a good radiator cap, etc) or is the gauge indicating hot? If the latter, be advised that gauge on mid 50's Buicks will show hot at 200*----with a good radiator cap (7#) and 50% coolant, it will not boil over until over 230*. If possible verify the temperature with a heat gun or install an external gauge.

Willie

[Guest NikeAjax]

What do your freeze-plugs look like? Take a flashlight and inspect each and every one of them!

Um, not to bum you out, but my Century didn't stop over heating until I had the motor boiled out and then I chipped out the cr@p that had accumulated over the years of abuse and neglect. Maybe I'm just special that way, and hopefully your not as special as I am. (I ran out of stars to put on my forehead!)

Jaybird

[Guest gunjeep444]

Jaybird, what am I looking for on the freeze plugs? I'm sorta new at this. How does one get the motor boiled out? I planned to back flush the motor, while the radiator was out, hoping to get some crap out before it gets into the radiator.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Crawl up under the car with a flashlight and small screwdriver or awl/icepick; look for discoloration, rust etc. Use the screwdriver as a probe; you're looking for soft spots. If the plug is good, you can't hurt it, but if it goes through, you've found a problem. Some of them may look sound, but they're just waiting for catastrophic failure to happen, ie, pin-holes!

Apart from pulling the motor out and having the motor "Boiled out", they literally put it in a bath of I think caustic-soda, nasty s**t! If you don't want to take it that far, and I don't blame you, pull the heads and get some really long screwdrivers. Use a ball peen hammer and chisel/chip out the schmootz, or as you so aptly put it, "CRAP!" It will be hard like dirt, think baked clay, as in Death Valley California, see image:

Anything you back flush it with won't even dent this stuff, which is why you need the screw drivers, and hammer, GO GENTLY, don't use gorilla-knuckles. I don't think you'll hurt the motor, ya never know though, but mostly your hands: it's hard to put things back right with smashed or broken hands/digits!

Sorry!

Jaybird

[bhclark]

One other thought, we have been concentrating on the coolant. Incorrect timing and vacuum leaks can also cause overheating at idle.

John, can you elaborate?

I haven't had any overheating problems with my '58 super until today. The carb has been giving me problems, so I pulled the carb off the '59 and bolted it up. All of the linkage and everything hooked up just perfect (or so it seems to me).

The 15 pound cap on it was all rusted, so I put the 7 pound cap from the '59 on it and took it about 2 miles around the block. Overheated and was spraying coolant.

I removed the thermostat (planning on getting a flush at a local shop and figured this would help), replaced the bad upper hose(springs rusted away), and filled back up (with mostly water).

Put a new 15 pound cap on....seemed to do okay while driving, but got hot (225 degrees) while idling, so I shut it off.

The radiator seems to be doing it's job....water is roughly 50-70 degrees cooler on one side than the other.

The water pump is not leaking and bushings seem good (fan is good and tight?).

I was leaning toward the water pump, but am wondering if the different carb could be the issue?

I'm not sure how to check the vacuum advance, but I can check the timing.

No other issues...

[JohnD1956]

This is something I have experienced, but I don't know the science. I believe the incorrect timing will result in lean conditions which can cause an engine to overheat. Note, I'm talking about really serious incorrect timing. Vacuum, of course, directly affects timing.

[bhclark]

well, I just checked everything. I had the dashpot up a little high, so I lowered it down.

If my gauge is accurate.

Dwell-27 degrees (Supposed to be 30)

Idle- 650 (supposed to be 450....I've never had one run that low before)

Timing-Seems to be at about 15 degrees. Should be at 5?

I let it idle for a good half hour and it never went above 190. It seems to only overheat when driven, then allowed to idle.

I'm guessing the radiator and water pump are fine, but the engine is a bit clogged.

I'll try a chemical flush just to try to eliminate the loose particles and get the proper mixture of coolant, but I know it won't do anything for those hard deposits.....

[Alfa]

Brian

I think you may be a bit advanced at 15 degrees. I used to own a 1960 Electra with the 401 engine. The book said the timing should be 8-12 degress BTDC, but it would always suffer pre-ignition under load at 12 degrees, so I ran it at 8 degrees with no problems. I agree that 650 rpm idle is about right 450 is too slow.

The vacuum advance is really only an economy device which advances the timing under low load conditions. It will be fully advanced at about 2000rpm and you would not miss it much if it were removed. The proper advance curve is dictated by the flyweights in the distributor. That said, a leaking vac diaphragm will cause a weak mixture through excess air bleeding in.

A weak mixture could cause overheating, but will also lead to hesitant throttle response etc.

Hope this helps

Adam..

[Guest NikeAjax]

Oooooh, oooh, oh! I just remembered something!!!!!!!!!!!!! While the motor is cold, NEVER TRY THIS WHEN IT'S HOT, for obvious reasons, pull off the radiator cap, and start the motor. Look for bubbles, if there are any, you've got a hole somewhere; you'll be looking down the throat of the radiator at the coolant. Ideally, you'll just see a ripple on top of the surface. You could have a head gasket leak, a bad freeze-plug, a failing water pump, a bad heater core, etc. You may want to run the car to let it warm up, metal will expand and perhaps only until it's warm, does it leak. DON'T rev the motor while you have the cap off, you might get a gusher on your hands, or worse, your face!

Jaybird

[bhclark]

I think I read that in the manual last night as a check for proper cooling system operation.

[JohnD1956]

Brian... I agree that 650 rpm idle is about right 450 is too slow...

Adam..

That 450 RPM may seem slow but it sure makes putting the dynaflow into reverse smoother.

[bhclark]

Is that what's causing that....I thought it was my shot tranny and engine mounts. (although I'm sure those aren't helping either!)

650 is better than the 800 I started at. Not sure what the Rochester was idling at.

Oh, and Jerry, sorry for hijacking your thread!

[Guest gunjeep444]

I got the radiator back in, after flushing the block. A buddy helped me push it out and I ran water through both ways, got some dark stuff out of it. Did not mess with the petcocks, afraid to! One buddy said that replacing the vacuum advance would be a good idea. I found a NOS one on ebay I just bought. Also plan to put in a new thermostat and radiator cap. Will just use distilled water and rust inhibitor till I am sure it is okay.

[bhclark]

Well, the '58 super still seems to be running a bit hot. Heater puts out air at a temperature that will nearly burn your skin!

It's not overheating according to the thermostat, just a tad over Normal, but the engine bay sure feels really hot.

I'm concerned as to whether all of the water and oil passages are clear enough. Is it possible the thermostat is reading ok, while other parts of the engine are getting too hot?

I did an oil change yesterday, adding mostly 10w30 synthetic blend and zddp.

also changed all 20 feet of heater hose! (thanks to the under seat heaters, there is a LOT of hose...one of which (of proprietary size and shape) is nearly impossible to get to without removing either the heater coil or fender! I've got a LOT of scratches on my arm from sticking it up in the fender)

I don't think I have time to pull the valve covers and oil pan to check for oil sludge, blocked passages, condition of pump and oil flow to valvetrain.

I'm not sure how to check the oil pump anyway....

If the water pump isn't leaking and I've got flow through the system, it's good right?

I would still need to swap the tires with Lucille's as well, which isn't easy when she's backed into the garage with no carburetor on her......

I've been spending all my time trying to get the '58 ready, I don't have another car ready to go 10 hours....so we might be arriving in AMES in the Hyundai.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Jerry? Why are you so afraid to open the petcocks? Since you're on dry land, there's no fear of "scuttling" her; that's how they sink ships when they scuttle them sometimes, by opening the petcocks! They're not as delicate as you've been told, geez, just take a pair of pliers and turn! If nothing comes out, you're still clogged: this will be a great test for your cooling system.

It's kinda like believing a tree doesn't make noise when it falls if there's no one to hear it; sorry, all the laws of physics say it still does. Those same laws make your car work. BTW, the ethylene glycol, aka anti-freeze, raises the boiling point of the water, letting the motor get hotter without boiling it. Boiling water turns to water vapor; another law, water can't compress, it only expands, which is why it boils, it's expanding! Do yourself a favor, run coolant in your engine, it was designed for it. Yeah, I know you're still working on "the problem" but don't half-ass it either, in the end, you'll be glad you did. There aren't many Roadmonsters out there, we all need to keep our Buicks on he road; Chevy's are soooooo boring, as are Fords, yawwwwwwwwwn!

Good luck,

Jaybird

[Guest gunjeep444]

Jaybird, I just might tackle those yet. Just got some 'Water Wetter' or wetter water, whatever. Several car guys told me about it, so I put it in, will give it a run this afternoon, when it's warmer(thankfully cool this morning).

[Guest 56 Rum Runner]

You really need to open the petcocks. I say this to save you a second trip to the radiator shop. My upper tank was full of junk so I took it to the local shop and had it cleaned ($70). Put it back in and ran it for a week or so then it began overheating again. I looked in the tank and saw it was full of junk again. I pulled it and took it back to the radiator shop. The owner asked me if I'd flushed the block before putting the cleaned radiator back in. I told him I'd run water through the thermostat housing with the thermostat out. He told me that if I hadn't opened the petcocks I'd left alot of junk in there, which had just made it's way back to the top tank. Another $70 "down the drain". When I got home I opened mine and had good flow on the right bank, but nearly zero flow on the left. I removed both petcocks from the block and was able to get a good deal more out. Use a pair of pliers and gently turn the petcock to get it free (it won't take much effort), then use your finger and thumb and turn it all the way until it stops. You can pull the whole thing out of the engine block without much trouble; I think it was a 9/16 wrench? You're this far in don't short cut it now.

[hchris]

Can I suggest putting a filter in the top hose to save you pulling the radiator over and over, especially when you are clearing/disturbing crud in the block.

I cut the leg out of her old stockings and put in the top hose as a cheap disposable filter.

[Guest NikeAjax]

Okay Jerry, we're gangin' up on you now; Muhahahahahahah!

[Guest gunjeep444]

Hey, I can take it! Been looking in the radiator, don't see any problems yet. Driving to the local car club meeting in the morning.