My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[Roger Zimmermann]

By tring to answeer your question, I had to read a lot as this lage book is more like a novel than a technical book! Anyway, I read that the six and the eight had many identical parts, like rear axle, transmission and so on. Wheels from the eight were the demountable disk as standard, with 33 x 5 tires on 23" wheels. The six used 33 x 4.5 tires, installed on taller 24" wheels. This gave the same outside diameter and same clearance than the eight! The six had wood wheels as standard, but the new Sport model had wheel discs from the previous generation.

The front brakes were new; before most cars had only rear brakes.

[oldcar]

Thank you again Roger

Your input and interest is much appreciated. Regarding my cars 23 inch wheels I find it almost impossible to believe that it is a one off although it took some searching to find a single spare wheel. At the time I was also offered a pair of wheels but that involved buying a complete rear axle assembly and the cost of freighting it to Australia was prohibitive. It is interesting that my car is fitted with 600 X 23 inch tyres, the equivalent to 33 X5.

Bj.

[oldcar]

As promised today has been spent cutting up that steel strip and making a start on the side screen frames. Now I have to buy some more acetylene so I can finish welding them up.

If it ain't one thing it is another!

Bj.

[West Peterson]

It would seem odd to me that production of the car would be six to nine months after the casting of the engine parts. I would guess would be within 3 weeks.

[oldcar]

Hi West

I was allowing some time for "seasoning" of the castings prior to machining and then complete assembly of the chassis prior to the body being commenced probably thinking more in terms of bespoke coach-built bodies. That is what comes from being more used to limited production cars like the Lagonda Rapier. They took eight years to build something less than 400 cars. All the cylinder blocks were cast in the one batch in late 1933 but the first car was not registered in July 1934. My car was sold by F N Morgan, a sales agent in Wales and first registered in Cardiff on June 8th 1935.

In contrast to the Packard for which I have absolutely no history, for the Lagonda I know the name and address of every owner since 1938, missing only the original purchaser. I have its UK paper work since before WW2. The Rapier Register lists every owner world wide and the fate of 90% of the cars produced, this listing is updated every 12 months.The present count is 381 cars. The Register is the work of just two volunteers.

Bj

Edited October 2, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I understand your thought process, but Packard was concentrating on high production (relatively so, since they owned 50 percent !!! of the US luxury car market at the time), so I think that the engine would have been completely assembled within the 3 weeks, and ready to install on the production line. I don't know much about pre-1929 Packards, but by that time the engine block's casting numbers are hidden when the engine is completely assembled, so it's difficult to check existing cars and compare engine casting number with delivery date. Later in the 1930s (1935 maybe??) the casting numbers are easier to see (still not very visible, though).

[JV Puleo]

The purpose of "seasoning" iron castings was stress relief. If you machined them too early after being poured, they warped badly. Buick had this problem around the time they introduced their detachable head and only discovered later that the same stress relief could be achieved by heating and cooling the castings under controlled conditions. In ramping up production they had shortened the time the castings stood unused... not fully realizing that this was critical. (I suspect the foundry hands knew and the accountants in the office didn't... or refused to believe it if told.)

Off hand, I don't know when stress relief through heating was developed but it was around the time being discussed here. Cast iron was a very widely used material and its properties were well understood. The automobile itself is a rather crude machine compared to the big lathes, milling machines and shapers used to make it, all of which were made of cast iron. ... I'd guess that Packard planned well in advance (which may be one reason their cars were produced in a "series") and that the castings stood outside a good 6 months before machining.

[oldcar]

Thank you JV

Good to hear from you again. I guess we will never know or that is until someone comes up with actual Packard production (completed) dates for individual cars. In the absence of a Dealer's plate on my car I don't even know when or where it was originally sold (Somewhere in the US of A). A BLIGHT ON ALL SOUVENIR HUNTERS!

Bj.

[oldcar]

Another box gets a partial tick. the side-screen frames are now ready for when Tony returns from Holiday.

Pegs and sockets are on order.

Bj.

Edited October 6, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ian_Greenlaw]

Bernie,

Do you have a contact for Raised Head Counter Sunk Machine Threads in Stainless slotted head ( I've tried AB Bolts, Australian Bolt Supplies and Keables but not Classic Fasterners yet )

Cheers

Ian

[oldcar]

Hi Ian

I tend to rely on Classic Fasteners in South Aust. you can look at their catalogue Classic Fasteners

If they cannot help try Restoration Supply Co in the US but postage becomes significant. Restoration Supply Company

Bj

[oldcar]

[Hello

Rather than going through all the trauma of trying to find a matching rear lamp I have decided to mount the rear number plate board and stop-tail-turn lights from the centre of the spare wheel. I can buy matching reproduction units locally and will sell the "original" (restored) stop-tail lamp with its

original (LH) forged mounting bracket.

Bj.

Edited October 9, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Not a lot to report, I have been doing battle with a recalcitrant two stroke lawn mower! Finally after rebuilding the really nasty (plastic) carburettor, replacing the fuel filter and cleaning and adjusting the spark plug gap it starts first pull of the rope but not before giving me a rather painful inflamed right shoulder.

Meanwhile I am having quite a debate with myself about the rear lighting and/or the need to fit flashing turn indicators. Safety should come first if the car is to be driven on the road but then originality is important if it should become a show car. I could compromise and use quickly demountable indicator lamps using modern (visible) light units but I find them repugnant even as a temporary fitting. I know there are reproduction rear lamps with amber (turn indicator) lenses in lieu of stop lights but they are only half the solution and do not address the problem at the front. The 1923 Single Six did not have separate (small) side lights but an auxiliary globe included in the main headlamps.Going through a couple of hundred period photographs in the Packard Photograph archive it seems that cowl mounted side lamps did not appear as standard fitment on Packards until as late as 1928, even then they were not fitted to every car shown.

As the car is to be sold on completion perhaps I should not even worry but simply leave it completely as original with just a single rear (stop-tail) light. I have run wires for a second (right hand) rear lamp but can simply end them at a hidden junction box, giving a future owner the option to fit a second light. I have yet to run the wires for turn indicators. At this point in time I doubt that the car will stay in Australia, going either back to the USA or to Central Europe.

I could use (Ford A Model) reproduction rear lamps mounted off the fenders but Packard seem not to have used this type of tail lamp mounting until the late 20s or early 30s. One other alternative is to use a quickly removable board hung from the centre of the spare wheel.

Your suggestions would be appreciated.

Bj.

Edited October 11, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Landman]

Bernie,

I think turn signals are very important if the car is to be driven. If it is going to ride a trailer from show to show, then it isn't an issue. I realize you aren't going to keep the car. So let them worry about it.

But if you are considering using it even if it is 1/10th of what you're using the Rapier, then find a way. I had a Model A where I used the cowl lights in the front and dual filament bulbs in the rear. Same with my 1940 packard which had parking lights on the fenders. Same with my '47 Oldsmobile which had the parking lights in the bumper guards. I'm planning to use the parking lights on my '34 Chevrolet, they are in the headlights. If there are no sidelights or cowl lamps or parking lights, then install a pair of fog lights and wire them as turn signals. No need to use the repugnant ones. Just my opinion.

[Roger Zimmermann]

As you will sell the car, let the new owner decide what is best for him. Depending in which country the car will be shipped, the lamps you may install could not be legal...

[oldcar]

Thank you both Pat & Roger

My thoughts at present are really a compromise. By using readily demountable modern(trailer) lights mounted from the spare wheel fixing which will be visible at night and at the same time disposable. I can mount turn indicator lights at the front using the shackle pin nuts to locate them. This way will not involve drilling any holes in the car and can be removed without trace.

Bj.

[oldcar]

Hiya'all.

I am sorry that I really don't have anything scintillating to report.... Just lots of little jobs while I am waiting for Tony to return from his holiday at the end of the month, then the big push towards the finish will (hopefully) happen.

Bj.

"Keep on keeping on"

[Guest cben09]

Hi Bernie,,Glad to hear progress is going well,,

My computr does not loke some part of a forum change,,,

AND i'm dum enough to not be able to fix it,,,,,easily,,,

My old parts car is about a n hour north at a new home,,with a Packard entheuast ,,Cris Charlton,Oxford Maine

Meanwhile i'm getting ready for,,,,,,we had flurreys last week and small S storm 1 hour north,,,so its close

I havent drained the steamer yet,,but I had it out last week,,,

AND Justin [ age 23 ] has fired it without help ,5 times now,,so he doesnt flinch when turning a valve,,

All for now,,Cheers Ben

[oldcar]

Hi Ben

It is great to hear from you again.

I hope that you have laid in a good stock of fire wood. By contrast we are just starting to have some really nice days around 25degrees C. interspersed with cool rainy days typical spring weather. That steamer of yours sounds like a lot of fun, we almost never see one here In all my 76 years I have only ever ridden in one Stanley and never driven one.

'Keep on keeping on'

Bj.

[oldcar]

Hello

Sorry about the lack of progress on the Packard, sometimes other things require my attention. This time it was top gear in the Lagonda Rapier's ENV Preselector gearbox. This involves removing the gearbox and partially dismantling it to replace the friction lining. Top gear is activated via a cone clutch within the box. This was started on Tuesday, Wednesday was taken up with grandfather duties yesterday I started to replace the box in the car and will finish putting in the last two or three bolts and replacing the front floor this morning (Friday). Next week I should be able to get back to the Packard.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

No need to apologize, Bernie. One can't be in all places at once. You still amaze me with the things you are able to do!!

Ben

[oldcar]

Hi Ben

Thank you for understanding.

Some people will tell you that necessity was the mother of invention. I say that it is the reason for ability. I don't see or look for other people to offer assistance and sure as h#ll I cannot afford the $90/100 per hour the so called experts like to charge.

After all there is only room for one person under my car or at my work bench. No prizes for guessing who that one person is going to be.

You might have noticed I tend to be independent. It is MY car, NO one else drives it, I broke it so I will fix it.

Some times I wish I had a fancy, spacious, and immaculate work shop like some people but then I actually do work in my little shed.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

[Scotts_DG8]

Bernie,

I know that you know I'm just one of your many avid followers, but I am also a fan of your skills and independent nature. There are times that I run into a sticky situation on my project or the time line turnes out not as expected taking longer to accomplish something I thought would take a lot less effort that can put me in a bit of a blue mood. You're one of those individuals posting here that can sure help turn things around for me, and at times your posts of your project can be an outright pick-me-up. Just one of those things that I felt like sharing. Always interested and often amazed in any progress you make and post and looking forward to hearing about your first ride around the block. Quietly waiting and reading/watching. Scott...

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Now that is a great picture! The Packard alone, in previous pictures, does not look like a large car. But next to the Lagonda!!

Ben

[Roger Zimmermann]

Now that is a great picture! The Packard alone, in previous pictures, does not look like a large car. But next to the Lagonda!!

Ben

Or, it's the Lagonda which is small!

[oldcar]

Hello Ben & Roger

The Lagonda Rapier is roughly the size of a MG TC. Like today's Aston Martin Cygnet, it was brought into the range as an answer to the financial climate at the time.

The design brief given to Tim Ashcroft in 1933 was simple "Produce the Best Light Car in the World"!

He exceeded expectations, it is just a pity the company went into receivership (July 1935) just as the Rapier sales were starting to take effect. Sales were almost 300 cars in the first 12 months a Lagonda sales record. If the powers behind the company had just been a little more adventurous and specified a 1500 engine instead of the 1100cc it would have completely re-written the record books.

My car is now, in its 78th year, a one and a half litre and would out sprint, out run and out climb virtually every other pre ww2 un-supercharged Under 1500cc sporting car. It is a super two seater touring car that I would drive anywhere and it will take me anywhere I ask it. Driven carefully it will return around 30 miles per (Imperial) gallon of 100 octane petrol.

Out on the highway it will cruise effortlessly at our 110 Kph legal limit, (hour after hour) .

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

Edited October 21, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Actually back to work on the Packard! I have bought the steel strip and a length of Kiln Dried hardwood and started work on the rear numberplate/tail-light board. While essentially a temporary fitting I will have the steel component nickel plated. The fittings for the side screens arrived in todays mail so I will have enough to keep me occupied for a day or two.

Two hours later, allowing 30 minutes for lunch, things have progressed. For all those lacking the imagination to conceptualise what I am talking about the attached photograph should help. The top of the "vee" attaches to the bolt projecting through the centre of the spare wheel. The metal work is now ready to go to the platers and I can start preping the wood for the walnut stain and epoxy finish. I still have to obtain suitable tail-lamps but two large red reflectors and a suitable electrical junction box came in the parcel with the side screen fittings.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj

Edited October 23, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Another day of little jobs, all seemingly meaningless but each important in its own right. Delivered metal Vee section and nut for the numberplate/tail lamp board to the platers, then back in the shed to start drilling and tapping the 16 holes for the side screen fittings. Sorted out a block of some unknown variety of incredibly hard wood for the gear-lever knob. This 3 inch X 3 inch X 3inch piece of timber was sourced from a construction site opposite my sisters house (right at the waters edge of Swan Bay) It was an off cut from the sun-decking along one side of the house. It has a remarkably close grain and should polish up very close to the colour of the American Walnut timber steering-wheel. Our son Steve called in for a coffee and went off with the afore mentioned block of wood and a suitable 7/16 UNF tap so he will turn up the gear-lever knob complete with a brass barrel fixing nut. Finally ground off the manufacturer's marking on the heads of the four stainless 5/16 bolts which will attach the number plate board then polished the heads. I believe that these little things are all important, even though very few people will even notice them.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

[oldcar]

So what is all the fuss about bolt heads. Basically it is just about attaching a piece of board to a strip of metal. No big deal below is a photograph showing three alternatives, a stock hardware bolt straight out of the box, a standard nickel plated dome nut and a stainless bolt with the makers marking removed and the head polished. Which one would you use on your restoration? Which would the judges among you prefer? Click on the photograph to enlarge it. I must apologise about the reflections (not scratches) in the polished bolt head.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj

Edited October 25, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bernie, if the bolts are well visible, I would choose the acorn nuts (dome nuts). I believe this kind of nuts was commonly used at that time.

[oldcar]

Thank you Roger

I value your input, I would have thought that the use of "acorn" dome nuts became much more common slightly later in the 1920s. I.e. for cylinder head nuts etc. The Packard has, correctly for 1923, plain head nuts.

I still find it difficult to believe that between 50 and 75 people look at this thread virtually every day and except for one or two, none of them seem have an opinion on almost anything.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

Edited October 27, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Landman]

I'm with Roger. Go with the acorn nuts. they look more "finished".

[Guest cben09]

These Packards were a milstone of good lines and good trim,,conservative but in good taste,,,

as were Pierce Arrow and Locomobile,,,,

Keep it correct

You will have the satisfaction of knowing it was done with great care and attention,,,to live on

Beyond us both,,, passing the message of proper choices to another generation,,,,

The ratio of views to posts seems to be around 1000 to one !! overall // u-tube etc

Ill look for that totally useless box of moto meters tomorrow

All for now,,Ben in Maine

[MCHinson]

Bernie,

A lot of folks are probably like me. They enjoy reading your posts but don't feel competent to answer many questions about your restoration.

I would suggest you use whatever Packard would have used in 1921, or whatever you can do that replicates the original hardware as closely as practical. I have no idea what would have been used originally. If you were working on a slightly later car, I would be willing to offer an opinion. I am not qualified to provide an opinion on your question.

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bernie, I'm looking more than I'm giving an opinion because, like other, I have no knowledge of that period. I'm more "Fifties"!

When you look at the number of views from my own topic, the number of answers and comments are lower than on your post. The fact is that I'm not asking questions but just showing what I'm doing and, for most, that model's construction is beyond the possibilities of most people, like the reconstruction of this Packard!

[oldcar]

Hello to my good friend Ben

Before you go poking about in your numerous boxes of bits, if you go all the way back to #19 post on page one you will see that I have an original Packard Moto-meter, bought off e-bay from an Antique dealer in New Zealand. Having dragged it out again I now believe that it may be repairable and will probably use it. For the time being it will at the very least fill the hole in the radiator cap.

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj.

Edited October 28, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Remarkable! Having stumbled over an Model A forum I could read how to recover the thermometer in my motometer. It seems that if they are left lying down for long periods as mine had been the red dye leaks back along the tube. The cure is simple. First place the bulb into some near boiling water then cool it rapidly under a cold tap. repeat this three or four times then having cooled it, repeatedly bump the base on a firm but malleable surface (Your spare tyre is ideal). This will shake down any bubbles. Presto the thermometer is working. Just don't leave it lying down again.

Bj.

Edited October 29, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)

[unimogjohn]

Bernie, great hint. I will try it. Mine is all the way red on the 1923 McLaughlin Buick. I will report if it works for me.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Amazing how simple some cures are if one only knows!

I am looking forward to the first startup of the Packard.

Ben

[oldcar]

Hello John

The attached photo was taken this morning note the position of the red. This has been all the way up ever since I first obtained it almost two years ago. It took all of twenty minutes to correct. and now responds to changes of temperature in the correct manner. I do have the correct Packard face, wreath rims, beveled glasses etc. unfortunately I will not be able to re-plate the main body as it is die-cast and very brittle. I am afraid that any attempt to dismantle it any further could be a disaster.

Ben

In a nutshell so am I but this will not happen until I get a new exhaust fitted which comes slightly out of order after the trim is finished. Right now I am watching my pennies very closely. EG. Having sold a Magneto at the weekend I could order the two rear view mirrors from a supplier in the UK yesterday

"Keep on keeping on"

Bj

TO ALL MY FRIENDS ON THE EAST COAST KEEP SAFE WE ARE THINKING OF YOU AT THIS DIFFICULT TIME.

Edited October 29, 2012 by oldcar (see edit history)