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[Steve Moskowitz]

Sky, the end of the day and you hit a nerve with me. I appreciate that there is testing and opinions given out on quality. However, some of it has been very flawed in the past. Remember the fake explosions done by NBC? There was little outrage over that. A newspaper guy a long time ago gave me the admonition that "he who controls the ink wins". I am afraid he was right. Sad, we have helped to kill our own industries.

Monday GM will lay off another 1,600 white collar workers. Some of those people I am proud to call friends. They are good decent, hard working people who have commuted long hours and have tried their best to do the day-to-day jobs at GM.

I am not an isolationist but fear for our country. Fiat will probably end up owning all of Chrysler. Buick, Pontiac and GMC most likely will be gone. Hummer has three suitors only one from this country. The government has been supplied with over 1800 pages of assets of GM and who knows what will end up being sold.

I do not care what your politics are, I can not believe anyone believes that the government really has a clue as to what is going to happen when it GM goes down to 3,000 dealerships (if they survive at all). I drove out of town yesterday and passed two modern dealerships closed. It was depressing. Politicians have never shown they know much about business, just approve more taxes and go farther into a deficit.

I should not be ranting on this site but it is impossible not to. I spent 40 minutes on the phone at the request of a GM executive trying to help a dealer. She ran a very high quality dealership that has won tons of awards for customer satisfaction and now has to figure out how to close down. It was heartbreaking as obviously she was a decent person who worked very hard to become a dealer and who cares about her employees.

Monday will be another dark day. I am not sure what kind of world we are leaving to the next generation.

Someone thought I was disagreeing with Sky..my post was just poorly worded as I tended to agree with him. Sky I just want to know where Penny is...I loved that show!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> However, some of it has been very flawed in the past. Remember the fake explosions done by NBC? There was little outrage over that</div></div>

Steve, there was little outrage over that because the high speed/slow motion film of the event showed that the explosion (there was only 1) occurred naturally, sparked by dragging sheet metal. The idiotic placement of sparking devices by the NBC producer was not only stupid, but unnecessary.

Those really were dangerous gas tanks, sadly.

But that's really beside the point. Those days are LONG gone now. It's been a decade since there has been a real difference between domestic and Asian car quality, and if you really read <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span> and the other quality surveys (and not just complain about them like I'm sure will follow this post) they've been trumpeting this improvement extensively. The 2009 <span style="font-style: italic">CR</span> auto issue all but told everyone to run out and buy Fords this year, although it did find a problem with Mopar quality lagging behind (actually declining this year, which is unheard of recently).

The young people not buying GM/Ford/Mopar products now don't read any of thse things. They remember their dad's cars, and buy accordingly. I saw a mint-condition Dodge Aspen yesterday. It reminded me of the one I convinced (in college) my dad to buy, and how it nearly killed him 2 or 3 times with a defective rear axle and how it needed an entire new front clip to pass PA inspection when it was <span style="text-decoration: underline">9 months old</span> due to rust perforation of the hood and both fenders.

If I didn't read <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span>, it's likely that reminder would be all I knew of American car quality right now.

The mistakes made 20-40 years ago have come home to roost, long after the people who made them have moved on. It's a matter of what's left to survive and rebuild from now.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

But that's really beside the point. Those days are LONG gone now. It's been a decade since there has been a real difference between domestic and Asian car quality, and if you really read <span style="font-style: italic">Consumer Reports</span> and the other quality surveys (and not just complain about them like I'm sure will follow this post) they've been trumpeting this improvement extensively. The 2009 <span style="font-style: italic">CR</span> auto issue all but told everyone to run out and buy Fords this year, although it did find a problem with Mopar quality lagging behind (actually declining this year, which is unheard of recently).

</div></div>

First off Dave, the reason Mopar doesn't get <span style="font-weight: bold">ANY! </span> good reviews from CR is because one of the guys that heads up CR (can't think of his name at the moment)used to work for Chrysler and got layed off twice. Do you think for one minute they are going to give Chrysler any credit???

Second, on the quality issues with cars matching the Asians. You're right!! They are in fact the same or better. That's a perfect reason for congress to either stop or limit the number of foreign cars here period!!! It's time to help our own car companies now. Take Mini vans for instant. Chrysler without a doubt makes the best one. Honda & Toyota are killing them. The <span style="font-weight: bold">big </span> reason this is happening is for years our crocked politicians have been in bed with the Asia car companies.......There's no doubt in that!

[Guest windjamer]

Dave I believe you to be an import fan due to your post on them. If I misunderstood I apologize in advance.

We had a 2008 Altima in the shop today. Customer complaned two tires kept loosing air. Wheels had air pressure sensors for tire valves. Both valves had a small crack,simple fix right?? THE WHOLESALE PRICE WAS $110.00 EACH. Had a vw beatle in also. Intermitant no start,no brake lights,no dash lights. Located a fuze panel with 3 fuze and 4 wires in the top of the bat. case. Little 3in x4in stinking piece of plastic. Burnt and melted.Cost? $91.00.The list go on and on. Yes Dave I love em too,On the flat bed that hauls em in.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Dave, we are not in a lot of disagreement here as I do think some of it has been cleaned up but there was a lot of manipulation of a lot of tests based on what I saw in the early 90's. I still think it is a valid point that there is too much "journalism" and not enough reporting! Just my take, it seems that neither the right or left have any concern about the fairness. The only thing that seems to matter is WINNING. There SHOULD have been outrage as it was WRONG! Too many people justify things by saying the end justifies the means. Great lesson we teach young people today.

I guess my view on cars is very different from you. I saw crap quality and rust perforation on the Hondas I sold too! I replaced fenders left and right at one time in my dealership. I could not stomach GM's quality for a long time as most of the car was good but the nagging window issues, electrical issues drove me and my customers insane. Engines and transmissions were fine. In my last years in the business I was proud to sell GM vehicles and saw little difference between their quality and Hondas. I saw Honda do some things that I was shocked at especially on the transmission front. I sold thousands of cars and serviced probably tens of thousands of cars in my career. They were a great car and a great company but they succumbed to certain ills as well.

I think you are right that not too many of this generation read CR but they do get tons of info from websites, etc. and CR's material gets quoted, etc. Heck, my better half has a subscription and I have even been known to check some of their stuff out. I just feel that when it comes to autos there has been a built in bias for too long. Human nature.

I known I am always going to be Don Quixote himself but I wish things in the media were not so slanted. I also know that the domestics could have avoided a lot of this. I also believe that the imports have had unfair trade practices. Also, also, also but now it makes no difference. This country is in a lot of trouble and I am watching friends go through it.

One of my very close friends will be heading to Hummer and leaving a career with GM that was marked with as much integrity as any person I have met in my life. He stood up to brass and paid the price and now will move on with a tremendous loss of benefits.

A lot of rambling here..too much emotion.

[MCHinson]

In my younger days, I read Consumer Reports and thought that they were a trusworthy source.

In the early 80's my boss noticed that there was an unbelieveable difference in their reviews of CB radios (that we worked on) that were all assembled on the same assembly line but had different brand names on the exterior cases.

He lost all faith in Consumer Reports when he saw 100% identical electronic items all over the charts, when the only difference in the items were the outside case and name brand on those cases.

I have not subscribed to Consumer Reports after observing that fiasco. I became convinced that their testing procedures were not sufficiently well designed and or implemented to guarantee results that could be trusted.

I have a couple of horror stories about a Datsun and a Fiat in the early 70's that are as bad as any of the stories about any domestic cars of the 70's. I have not driven an imported car since the 70's so I guess I am doing my best to make up for everybody who jumped on the import bandwagon back then. I guess there just aren't enough "old sticks in the mud" like me.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There SHOULD have been outrage as it was WRONG! Too many people justify things by saying the end justifies the means. Great lesson we teach young people today.</div></div>

There was definitely outrage within NBC. Everybody connected with the fiasco never worked for the network again.

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The big reason this is happening is for years our crocked politicians have been in bed with the Asia car companies.......</div></div>

Other than the disgraceful display by the "right to work" state senators a few months back I have to disagree. Same-same for the parallel notion that the car magazines are somehow on the take from foreign makes.

If it were as easy as making some pay-offs for good press and favorable legislation why didn't Detroit do it? Was their sense of morality just too strong to allow it? Please.

Sorry, but it comes down to product....and after so-long making product that was lacking, perception.

It is a tragedy, but Detroit's mortal wounds are self-inflicted.

[msmazcol]

Trying to justify import cars in this country is a crime. We should all look in our own garage and see what is parked there. How about the driveway? Look at the old family photos. What do you see? If that number sways to across these borders shame on YOU. I purchased my first auto in 1977. My used and new vehicles include only two imports. Those two were bought so I could leave my

"GOOD" GM trucks at home in the garage clean and polished for the next important trip. The imports were sacrificed at a dirty work parking lot and junked. The new vehicles I have purchased were bought from a family owned dealership who are more like friends than salesman. Outstanding people who I am now concerned about.

I'm tired of hearing about overpaid UAW workers. These were all people just trying to make a living in this mess of a country. I can bet not a one of them lives as well as certain CEO's, (not GM), but we won't get into. And no it does not count that the factory is in this country with the profits going overseas.

While not one of OUR USA BIG THREE is perfect the automobiles they have built have built this country. It was one of the greats. Stop the finger pointing and lets all look at those photos and the MIRROR.

Mark

PS. The photo shows my Daughter doing maintenance under the hood of our 93 Suburban. It's amazing how long they last if you take care of them rather than beat'em

[MCHinson]

I know that some people will call me crazy, but (with the exception of those couple of used imports that my father bought back in the 70's when I was a teenager living at home) I have never driven an imported car. I have never bought one and still don't intend to buy one.

My current antiques are all Fords. My current modern vehicles are both Chevrolets. I am thinking of buying a Packard.

In my lifetime, I have purchased Oldsmobiles, Buicks, Fords, Chevrolets, and Cadillacs. They have all performed well for me.

I was born in the US. I live in the US. My cars were all made in the US. Call me simple but It just makes sense to me.

The death of manufacturing in this country leaves this country in peril. I don't buy things that were manufactured overseas if I can find a version made in the US. Unfortunately, that is getting harder to do as more and more US industry goes under.

[Guest Skyking]

I'm sorry Roger, but I disagree with you, it's to damm obvious!

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

I'm die hard Chevrolet, through and through, but anymore Toyotas and Hondas are just as much, if not more, made in the U.S.A.. No, I have never owned either one.

[2doorcoupeman]

My Garage has 4 American vehicles in it,one of which i bought new in 2002.I am about to buy another new vehicle very soon and it will be from one of the big (hurting)three.Need something like a muscle car(v-6).I like the styling of those cars..different than the jelly bean cars.

[Reatta Man]

You guys have made some very valid points about the quality of American cars, and how they do NOT deserve the lousy rap they have taken based upon a 1988 or 1993 model.

The only thing those cars have in common with new cars is the name. Period. No comparison.

One thing that many are NOT seeing, however, is that as the government moves in on your (our) car companies, they are also moving in on most other products you touch in your life.

If the trend doesn't stop, you will buy an American car that is 10, 20 or 30 percent owned by the government, financed by a bank owned by the government, while you work at a job where a government bureaucrat approves how much you make, how much profit your employer makes, and how much you will pay for gas (probably about the same they pay for gas in France). Your car, job, house or other 'luxury items' will have a tax, hidden or visible, to pay for 'free' healthcare, and your choices in a car will be limited to those the government decides are green enough, get a high enough mileage, or are deemed safe enough to recycle when they are eventually discarded.

So, yes, the B3 are good companies that should be left alone to work through this without becoming property of DC. But, also, don't loose sight of how these same 'experts' are working their way into the cost, supply, content and other major factors in nearly everything else you touch or use.

Wow, are we having fun now..... Or is the government putting caps on that, too?????

[TG57Roadmaster]

I'd love to make a comment on the Big Brotha Gubment Takeover Conspiracy Theism that's sweeping the Nation, but it's time for my morning tea, and Oliver Stone's latest flic is coming on (my made in China) TV.

Later,

TG

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look at the old family photos. What do you see? </div></div>

Germans.

[LINC400]

Coming from the state with Rod Blago, I have to say I think that the government has no place trying to dictate how to run car companies when they can't even manage themselves.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GM, Chrysler, and Ford have measured their net losses in the billion$ for at least the last 3 years, some much longer. Ford's financial picture actually improved dramatically as gas climbed from $3 to $4/gal, and remains relatively stable despite the current major recession, doing about as well as Honda/Toyota/et al. (All of whom seem to be getting by OK, I wonder what they know?)</div></div> Yup you're right, the automakers have been at a loss for quite a while, and for that I won't argue, but the high fuel prices compounded the problem worse than what it was. Look at all the areas of the country that rely on tourism that are hurting now and I'm quite sure that they won't put the blame on GM, they'll put it on Exxon Mobil. I'm sure the farmers will tell you the same thing. When people are losing their jobs (do you know what that is Dave??) they aren't spending money, and when money isn't being spent, your profits are getting eaten up by payroll.

You can wave your Japanese flag all you want, but even their sales aren't as good as they were before the fuel prices went through the roof. Our pull vehicle is a Chevy Silverado. Would I buy a Toyota instead?? If they made a 3/4 ton I wouldn't rule it out. Regardless of what you drive, there is good and bad in everything. Everyone has their good cars, and everyone has their junk. It's all on how they were built and driven.

I do sometimes believe that sometimes when a company has a product that's too good, they get rid of it. When I look at the Chevy 350 engine, the Ford 302 and the Mopar slant 6, they were bullet proof engines that wouldn't stop. The problem is when it won't break, then it often doesn't get replaced, and sales also suffer.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(do you know what that is Dave??) </div></div>

Yes.

This is a stressful age, brought on by years of mistakes on several parts. Lashing out without thought or reason helps no one. I haven't said one thing on this thread that wasn't 100% pro-American car. Yet here I am "<span style="font-style: italic">waving my Japanese flag</span>".

Blame, racism, isolationism, rage, etc. do nothing but obstruct reality and fact. All are sadly and embarrassingly on display here of late. Don't fall into that trap.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So, yes, the B3 are good companies that should be left alone to work through this without becoming property of DC. </div></div>

This article was in todays Editorial. It's funny how our friends to the north can see the <span style="font-weight: bold">BIG </span> picture, but we in America don't.........Sad!

[LINC400]

Very good article. Amazing how the Big 3 were whipped when they showed up to Washington in their private jets as if it was a criminal offense. How did the banks and AIG get there? Did they drive hybrids to get their handouts? Do they have plans in place that polititions that have no clue about the industry get to knock down and tell them to redo or else? I suppose it would be better if GM and Chrysler paid huge bonuses with the bailout money like AIG did.

As far as Consumer Reports, they might be useful for buying a digital camera or washing machine. But I think they are useless for info on cars. They most definitely have a bias against large cars and 2 doors. The only type of cars I will buy. When there are 600 4 doors on the market and 5 2 doors, I do not need to hear negative comments made about the 2 door because it does not have 4 doors. Obviously if I wanted a 4 door I would be looking at one. The same way I assume someone looking at a Marquis or Town Car is not interested in hearing negative comments because it is bigger than an Accord and does not get the same gas mileage as one.