10 Cars That Sank Detroit

[sfair]

Part of the problem might be summed up thusly:

"Whats Good For GM Is Good For America"

[Steve Moskowitz]

MIGHT be is the right terminology! No question GM was arrogant as they became the dominant player and talk about breaking them up was rampant. However, this is a very misquoted statement, what Wilson really said was:

"because for years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa".

Plays out differently when quoted in context of what was said.

[sfair]

Taken out of context, or not, its the "vice versa" that stuck. It formed a culture, a mission statement, a reason d etat for many corporations, not just GM; but it seems that GM cannot rout out some of these entrenched values. Do not tame wild ducks! They tend to keep you awake when everyone else is taking a nap...

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know about your SL2, but my 1996 SL1 gets 41mpg on the road (well... it would if I ever get around to replacing its oxygen sensor). </div></div>

Mine was an automatic with almost every option (except a rear spoiler, strangely). I got 31/38 mpg (city/hwy) out of almost every tank. The only time I got different was when I used it for long trips running empty (the 38 mpg was always with all four of us on board), where I got 41 mpg (twice).

Could you imagine what that 1.9L could've done if GM had developed a 4 or 5 speed automatic like today's 32 mpg Cobalts and Foci (plural of Focus) have?

BTW, you should replace that O2 sensor ASAP. If you're riding around with a bad sensor you're likely cooking the matrix in your catalytic converter. When it melts down you'll not only have to replace it, you'll also have to replace the split pipe in front of it when the pressure makes it blow. I had that happen to a Subaru in the 1980s, and it cost me over $900 (then!) to fix it.

[Pontiac59]

A couple years ago I towed away a '93-ish Saturn for free that had sat in a garage a couple years. It ran, but needed some work done. Like 140K. I sold it for $200 to the daughter of an aquaintance who needed a car, and they drove it another year and I think wrecked it finally. All it needed was rear brake calipers and one of the fenders was messed up a little. I can't understand why that division doesn't make a lot of money for GM - it must be the $3000 or so in additional costs per-car GM has to deal with from union and pension costs, letting guys retire with full benefits at like age 48 catches up after a while.

We've had lots of good GM cars and the ones that have been bad have usually been well-worn by the time we got them. But heck, even the beat up '84 Skylark I had, another freebie tow-away, always ran for me. Have read lots of bad about those cars, but it was so good in the snow that it got me home with a flat tire on the back that I couldn't change because of a rounded off lug nut (and couldn't get any help, short of calling a tow truck, so I finally got ticked off enough I just drove it the 10 miles or so on home).

I just retired a TBI Suburban at just shy of 100K only because it's rusty, they didn't want to pass the inspection on it. Runs great, I zoomed down the highway at 75-80 the 75 mile trip to put it in storage, I replaced it with a little newer one with a better body. Terrible gas milage, but always started and would tow a house behind if I had to.

I don't understand how it's bad for a car company to make basically the same thing for 20+ years - the 73-91 Suburban, the '71-'95 van, the Astro van, the Taurus, etc. - obviously people must have been buying them all that time. For some people cars are just transportation, and if they can keep buying the same thing that serves their needs, they're going to buy it, and who cares if it's not that much different from the last one as long as it's reliable.

[sfair]

As car people, we tend to have a biased viewpoint; my daily driver is 26yrs old. But times have changed and they changed quite a few years ago. Brand loyalty - out the window. You and I may put up with loud and coarse, but the car buying public will not, and they have voted with their car buying dollar. History may bear out that some vehicles were under rated when new, but new car buyers do not care a whit about future history. The smart consumer will check out various options and if the one car drives tight, comfortable, quiet and just feels good compared to the other that is crude, noisy, etc., the purchase choice is made easily. And as history has bourne out, the quiet one also has longevity... a bonus!

The credo should be: "I will make what the customer wants" not " The customer will want what I make"!!

[mrpushbutton]

Steve, I have a question that you would be best suited to answer, given your experience. Do you feel that certain "bottom feeder" GM dealerships over-sold service work to make more money in the back end of the dealership?

In talking to friends who have sworn off American cars permanently they routinely report that they endured expensive repairs for things I have never had to look at in 150,000-200,000 miles on my GM cars. I am not castigating all GM or American dealerships, but some, usually in a crowded-market urban area where there are many dealerships carrying the same brands, and less than honest at the write-up desk.

[Steve Moskowitz]

John,

The fish rots from the head. Find me a dealer or any other businessman who has no ethics and so will his employees. I do not think it matters the size nor the location of a dealership. Not the brand either as I saw it with domestics and imports alike. Traditionally service positions involve compensation programs that are based upon productivity and unless the dealer hires honest people they will take advantage of customers.

I was in business 30 years and saw the good, bad, and ugly. I started out at my dealership as Parts and Service Director and can honestly say that over my time I never had a service writer that I had to worry about. In fact, many times I had the opposite with my writers being hesitant about selling needed services or just solidly recommended maintenance.

I also know and witnessed as a GM rep and a dealer very dishonest dealerships that totally took advantage of the public. I also saw that big time from many independent garages. How about hundreds of dollars to fix a check engine light by removing the bulb? There is way too much dishonesty in the world among all professions, again probably starting out at the top with our elected officials!!!

On the flip side I also saw customers who lied, misrepresented and otherwise badgered dealership employees to get something for free. As you know, no one is accountable for anything anymore.

Sorry, started to get into a rant and.....

Sorry John, you probably got more than you wanted on this one.

[mrpushbutton]

No Steve, that was a very accurate and balanced answer. Like most things in life there are the extremes of opinion and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[sfair]

The fish rotting from the head is good, but I think that the head is a little higher than at the dealer level. This head likes to say that it is always s.e.f. (somebody elses fault). Unions, dealers, government, tariffs, blah blah blah! Uh,uh, sorry, don't buy it.

" Do you want to know one of things that is the bane of your existance, Mr Fish? The Internet. Communication. People talking to others. And attitude. Okay two things."

Example: one Japanese company had a sludge problem with a particular V6 - "We will fix existing problems and extend warranties on all engines affected".

A domestic manufacturer had problems with sludge in a particular V6 - "The problem is your all your fault, Mr Customer. Now go away and don't bother me!"

These kinds of recants get out on the World Wide Web and it can drive another small nail into that proverbial coffin.

"There absolutely has to be a reason that Japanese imports generally outsell, cost more, have higher customer satisfaction and have higher resale value than your cars" Mr. Wagner, or your replacement. "It is your job to find out and correct, nothing else matters. Delegate your day to day duties and get down on the street. Stand at the exit of a Toyota dealer if you have to and ask what just influenced the purchase of that new Corolla. You collect, gather and assemble this information, no-one else! Then you gather a team (yuck) complete with some wild ducks, and you formulate an effective plan that will get your company on its feet, and now. You say that sales are down, then that plan includes getting more of those shrinking sales. Saying that it is S.E.F is not an option. If you declare bankruptcy, everybody will be scared away from your showrooms, permanently!! Why would I buy a question mark when the people across the street are doing better?? I will have absolutely no motivation to do so. Get down to it, you be a part of the communication loop, and reclaim #1 spot. Make it job one."!!!!

Just a rant.

[MCHinson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sfair</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The credo should be: "I will make what the customer wants" not " The customer will want what I make"!!

</div></div>

I like that quote...

Even Henry Ford learned that lesson (almost too late) somewhere around the 1920's.

Steve, good assessment. I have had some good and some bad dealings with numerous dealers.

Here in Southeastern NC, it seems that it is easier to get a better deal at a small town dealer some distance away from my home than here where I live. The funny thing is that when I lived in one of those small towns, I could not get a decent deal at one of those same dealers.

I think it has something to do with the thought of moving a unit, making a small profit on it, and never expecting to see the car again, since it will probably be serviced at a larger dealership nearer to the purchaser's home.

Every time I visit my local Chevrolet Dealer, I seem to get more discouraged with their sales personnel and their tactics. I actually tried my best to work a deal on a new vehicle recently and finally gave up on dealing with my local dealer and decided to keep my 2003 Tahoe for now.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Sfair, I really enjoy your writing and agree with a lot of what you have said. I had a Honda franchise as well and saw things they tried to get away with which were just as typical as GM at times.

Probably the most customer oriented company was Saturn in the beginning. They went probably farther than any company ever in trying to develop a reputation as THE most customer oriented organization. Yes, it was marketing and it worked for awhile. I think in the end though, there were far too many customers accustomed to "dealing" then those who wanted to buy at "one price".

Matt, the economics of a dealership are very complex. However, all dealers paid the same price for their vehicles with the exception of charges tacked on if they were part of a marketing group like I was or in the end the mandated marketing charge which fluctuated around the country. A little history since I am old.

In the 70's the largest profit center with the domestic dealers was the new car department. Many dealers felt service was a necessary evil and did not pay huge attention to their service departments. This gradually changed over time to service being a profit center but with extended service intervals and higher quality the profits started to erode. Used car departments became a bigger profit center (at one time some dealers wholesaled almost all their used cars)and finally the F & I department. (most dealers by then had closed their body shops because they became very difficult to operate with technology, insurance mandates, etc.)

I only bring this up since it illustrates the difficult of getting a fair return on your investment or sales. (This scenario excludes many of the imports as they were able to get high grosses even above sticker for many years. Each month I had to net $300,000 to pay my overhead. It wasn't easy when customers knew my cost and there was always a competitive dealer waiting to steal a customer even to the point of not making any money. I was in the Chicago area and the competition was brutal. It irked me then and irks me now to sell a product for $40,000 and have someone offer me a $100 over invoice. Yes we had the holdback but given the 300K that still only averaged fro a low of $600 a car to around $1200 and even then GM did not give me my money right away. At one time they even kept if for the year!

So this comes down to dealership sales people. I have no idea how ANYONE can make any money selling the domestic vehicles anymore. To be a salesperson and support your family is difficult. The dealer is caught in many cases with the inability to pay fair salaries so has to rely on the commission system. It quite frankly does not help you get the highest caliber of people. Naturally there are exception and some cars you actually can make money on but not a whole lot.

It can be a very lucrative business but there are many cases now of dealers giving back every red cent they have left from their life's work and investment back to the business in order to survive. Many are not going to make it. I have seen the sales figures for GM in my old area and Hondas as well as recently as a few weeks ago and they even shocked me.

I am not sure any of this is making sense since it actually needs to be spelled out in much more detail. This is my long winded way of saying that you can get a good deal anywhere by doing just a little bit of homework. To be treated well and respectfully keep your ears open to recommendations of friends, family and others.

I had many police officers, local and county who were my life long customers. I had a set deal at $100 over invoice for all of them as my way of saying thanks for serving and protecting us (except for the one officer who turned out to be the thief who was breaking into my dealership). You may find some dealers in your area that would do the same.

OK, I guess it is time to fold this thread. I will be posting soon about this year's pedal car project that hopefully will be much more fun than all the doom, gloom and justifiable outrage these days. Happy Easter to you and your family...hope your daughter still is enjoying the car hobby. Happy holidays to everyone else as well.

[MCHinson]

Thanks Steve. Yes, Maryellen is still enjoying the car hobby. She is planning on riding on a local Model A Tour tomorrow morning with me. (I know an 11 year old should not be up at 11:00 pm, but she says Thanks and Hi!)

[keiser31]

If we're taking a poll, I vote Chevrolet Chevette the number one car that destroyed a bunch of folk's confidence in G.M. cars. What a piece of doo doo that was. I worked for a rental company that bought a bunch when they came out new. The radiators went away at about 15,000 miles...the rest of the cars mechanical items followed shortly thereafter.

[MarkV]

We had 2 chevettes and both were excellent cars and far outlasted their cheapness.

[Mika Jaakkola]

Did you guys hear this song about Detroit?

John Rich: Shutting Detroit Down

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