General Motors on Life Support???

[Dave@Moon]

John, I serious doubt from his tone that Jim was referring to an application for private aid.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, I serious doubt from his tone that Jim was referring to an application for private aid. </div></div>

I see. If Jim wants public aid, he should secede, then declare war. Assuming he survives the ultimate military loss, he'd then be eligible for rebuilding assistance, economic development aid, military aid, and he could petition to join NATO. That ought to cover a lifetime on the dole... and, he could have his very own fighter jet.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Reatta1]

[quote

Well, if you'd like to take the rice out of the mouths of starving people (<span style="font-style: italic">albeit just the ones we think we can get something from, mainly oil from recipients #s 1 & 2--Nigeria and Iraq</span>), I'm sure you can get your 15 cents per dayworth if you don't wind up in jail first.

Now, if us wealthy American antique car owners are all done worrying about every which way <span style="text-decoration: underline">we</span> are oppressed, and how much money <span style="text-decoration: underline">we</span> don't have to spend on the next Packard that God and the Founding Fathers told us we're entitled to, can we please get back to pretending that we care about cars and the car industry instead of ourselves only? I'm sure it gets irritating to the people who think there really are problems in the world.

BTW, 5 typical acres of land in Oregon by itself is more than the net worth of most American citizens, let alone anything conceivable to the people who actually need aid.

===============

<span style="font-weight: bold">Can anyone tell how offended people get when tiny/unrelated/spurious/etc. concerns are brought into discussions like this, blown out of all proportion, thus making the substantive contributions moot?</span> (the bold here is by me)

Dave, Dave, Dave. There you go again. Did you even see the little emoticons at the end of my post. From them you should have caught the fact that my post was a tongue in cheek parody of what is happening with the bailouts being spread around. -------- Although--------now that I give it a little more serious thought-----------well--------hhhhmmmmmmmmmm.

And by the way, 5 acres of land where I live is not nearly as valuable as you might be thinking. In a large metropolitan area maybe, but not here. Not that I wouldn't welcome that. This place is only worth just under a half mill.

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 5 acres of land where I live ....</div></div>

When you request military aid, you might want to ask for a Harrier, or better yet, a Joint Strike Fighter VSTOL. It's hard to put a useable runway on five acres, unless they are platted long and skinny.

Cheers,

JMC

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This place is only worth just under a half mill. </div></div>

The median family net worth in the U.S. is $93,100.

[JO BO]

I'm sorry I brought the median average down so low with my net worth of a buck ninety-eight. Anyone want to give me a job? JO BO

[LINC400]

I think the whole government refusal to give the big three loans is ridiculous. Financial institutions and insurance companies are getting billions of dollars given to them for free. No need for paying it back, no plans of action have to be given, no explanations as to why they are in trouble. Just free handouts.

If we lose the big 3, we will never again be able to have our own domestic car companies. If there is a war, are we sure that the German and Japanese automakers would help us 100% of the time? GM, Ford, and Chrysler would just like they did in WWII.

How many independents (U.S.) have tried to start their own car companies in the last 30 years? Aside from maybe a few lasting a couple of years, none of them succeeded. Banks have do not have to design, plan, put into production, manufacture, crash test, deal with union labor, government restrictions, distribution, changing tastes. etc. that car companies do. I would much rather see them tank than the big 3. Yes the big 3 have made some stupid decisions. But what is the excuse for the banks? There is none. They just lent too much money to people who should not have been given loans that large or at all.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> But what is the excuse for the banks? There is none. They just lent too much money to people who should not have been given loans that large or at all. </div></div>

And to think, some that caused it or knew it still got elected and still in office. That's pitti-ful!!

[MarkV]

Here is my theory on the dropping gas price:

Gas prices begin to go up 3 years ago because of 'speculators' the Republicans loose the mid term election partly because of Bush but also the rising cost of living, fast forward to 2008 gas prices climb to an all time high, which is the straw that finally broke the camel's back, as many families were streched to the limit. Then the economy tanks...the one area that Republicans are not strong in at this point and time, Obama is elected because regardless of who you are and even if you have not been effected by the economy downturn everyone is affected by gas. So, the gas prices drop like a rock since the election. Anyone see a pattern? Who were these speculators bringing up the prices? Were they dedicated far left liberals/socialists like George Soros? Did they also give to Obama or support Obama? This crippled the economy and destroyed the big three, maybe this was the terrorist attack that everyone said was coming? Because, who do we get the oil from? who did they want elected? During the entire gas situation everyone was saying how 'it just costs that much for gas to get into your tank' But, money has not changed that drastically, which leaves me to believe that someone rose the prices because they had something to gain.

[serb]

It is getting pretty close to trailing this one off. The same thing is being rehashed over and over. Dave will never see the light even if they put him in a room and put a spotlight over his head. He is defintely stuck in a time warp with the rest of the Haight-Ashbury crowd.

Stevo

[Guest Skyking]

Yea Stevo, I think it's time to put this one to rest.......

[Guest Reatta1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This place is only worth just under a half mill. </div></div>

The median family net worth in the U.S. is $93,100. </div></div>

Those figures must be out of that sea of liberalism that Obama represented in Chicago. Around here that 5 acre value is pretty average. However, just 30 miles from here this same 5 acres would be in the neighborhood of 5 mill. Sometimes I wish I could pick it up and transplant it there. But then, the taxes would be that much more too. (sigh!!) You just can't have it both ways. And THAT is what the auto and financial industries need to get through their heads.

[Guest Reatta1]

There might be a lesson here!!

A Modern Parable.

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale-boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly, the End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses...

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY

[lrlforfun]

OK Buick People: I started this thing and now, if you all don't mind, am finishing it.

My hope is that the ideas discussed in this thred will be heard and put to use by the many who want to make a difference.

What a ride!!!! Mitch

[Guest John Chapman]

Mitch,

Glad to see you unlocked this. I think it indicative of interest in, not only in Buicks and automobiles in general, the evolving physical, political, and economic environments that so greatly affects the cars we'll drive and who makes them. The posting numbers are impressive.

Cheers,

JMC

[Reatta Man]

Agree with John. Glad this is now open.

A few observations based upon recent events:

1. Talk has popped up about GM unloading Pontiac, Saab and Saturn, as well as Hummer. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have NO problem buying a GM car if they are going through BK. They WILL continue making cars and trucks. But, if they dump Pontiac, why should anyone want to buy one, after watching the Oldsmobile depriciation?

2. Speaking of Pontiac, there is a LOADED 2009 G6 convertible at a San Antonio dealer, MSRP of about $35K, discounted to about $24K. This price is WAAAAY below GMS or any other program, unless you include a PEP car with quite a few miles on it. The car was used in a recent golf tourney, and has 61 miles. While the car is an incredible bargain, I can't help but wonder why GM couldn't have a more agressive pricing structure all along? I've also seen current-year GM cars going for bargain-basement prices thru local dealer-only auctions.

So, GM continues to uload cars through auctions and special backroom deals, but the rest of the buying public is supposed to pay retail AND help convince DC to give them a bailout?

What gives?

Joe

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Those figures must be out of that sea of liberalism that Obama represented in Chicago.</div></div>

The number's a link. Read it. The figure is from the Federal Reserve, and is from 2004. President Obama was in the Illinois state senate, and virtually the entire free world was dancing to the tune of the Republican Party.

Face it, you're rich.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave will never see the light even if they put him in a room and put a spotlight over his head. He is defintely stuck in a time warp with the rest of the Haight-Ashbury crowd. </div></div>

See the light on what? As best I can recall, I have spent most of my time on this thread shooting down strawmen arguments from both sides with facts and direct observations.

I thnk that using facts is itself the problem here. It gets in the way of what people want to think is truth. Sorry!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This place is only worth just under a half mill. </div></div>

The median family net worth in the U.S. is $93,100. </div></div>

I shouldn't have limited it to families. The median net worth of <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> U.S. households is $86,000. ( Where do you stand in the wealth spectrum?, Bankrate.com)

[Guest Reatta1]

Dave, if you are trying to arrive a a net worth for me you can't use that property value to do it. First of all you have to deduct the mortgage, then the property tax liability, then the income tax liability, then all the insurance premium costs, then utilities costs, then health care costs, then everyday living expenses cost, etc. etc. etc. When all is said and done there is no way you can put me in the 'rich' category. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Guest Reatta1]

To get my posting back on track. I don't see the local dealers having that much difficulty selling vehicles. Haven't noticed any 'fire sale' ads that show deep discounts. This part of Oregon is largely a mix of rural and urban with the rural being heavy on farms and ranches. Those people buy trucks and SUV's and you can see that in the percentage of trucks and SUV's stocked on the lots. Our largest urban area, Bend, has a high percentage of imported wealth and they don't seem to be bothered by this economic downturn. Of all the places I've lived, here is where I see the most import luxury models on the road. IE; Mercedes, BMW, Lexus etc. As far as GM models go, it looks to me like Buick outnumbers the other brands. Trucks and SUV's are a rough split between Chevy and Ford with Dodge close behind. Although the Toyota Tundra seems to be making some inroads.

[MarkV]

"The number's a link. Read it. The figure is from the Federal Reserve, and is from 2004. "

Yeah and they always tell the truth dont they? Bernake, and Paulson!

"President Obama"

Not till January 20th! We have only one President at a time, Dick Cheney, I mean...George Bush (a bit of liberal humor!)

"was in the Illinois state senate, and virtually the entire free world was dancing to the tune of the Republican Party."

What George Bush is, he is certainly is not a Republican! And just because Obama was in the state senate doesnt mean he was not singing the tune of liberalism (which he was) lets face it, those numbers are ridiculous, here in CA you can barely make it by making 100,000 a year! It is just a way to tax, tax, tax. So, since Obama is in bed with the unions will he approve a bailout if Bush does not?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, if you are trying to arrive a a net worth for me you can't use that property value to do it. First of all you have to deduct the mortgage, then the property tax liability, then the income tax liability, then all the insurance premium costs, then utilities costs, then health care costs, then everyday living expenses cost, etc. etc. etc. When all is said and done there is no way you can put me in the 'rich' category. Sorry to burst your bubble. </div></div>

The median single family home price in the U.S. peaked in the second quarter of 2006 2006 at $227,100. Just try to get a half million dollar mortgage with a U.S. median household income of $43,200.00 (<span style="font-style: italic">again according to the apparent communists at the Federal Reserve</span>--same link as above). He!!, try to get just a median mortgage with a median income. Really, it'll be fun!

Also your maintenance expenses (taxes, insurance, doctors, McDonalds, etc.) absolutely <span style="text-decoration: underline">do not</span> count against your net worth as it is commonly defined by....., well everyone. Your debt (mortgage & other) does, but that's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">it!</span></span></span>

Face it, you're rich!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Face it, you're rich. </div></div>

"Rich" is a term open to many subjective interpretations. I never trust the pols or the Fed, because they haven't a clue.

I think a good working definition of "rich" is when you have the assets to support your chosen lifestyle without having to work, aka "independently wealthy." So, a definition of "rich" will vary according to your desires.

"Rich" according to the government is the <span style="font-style: italic">ability </span>to pay a heavier tax load without being forced <span style="font-style: italic">into </span>a government program. The ludicrous 'net worth' figures include home equity, which does little toward being "rich", as those who have tapped the equity will attest. Using it ultimately will reduce most to "renter" which, in all but the most unique circumstances, is not "rich." A much more realistic figure for net worth is <span style="font-style: italic">'assets minus primary residence equity'</span>.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">President Obama </div></div>

Ooops.... He's not the Pres, yet, he only stands at a podium a megalomaniac would adore, "Office of the President Elect", which is an entirely ficticous entity.

Cheers,

JMC

[BUICK RACER]

You all, might want to look at this web page

HERE

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Using it ultimately will reduce most to "renter" which, in all but the most unique circumstances, is not "rich. </div></div>

Beat's not having it, which is <span style="text-decoration: underline">obviously</span> the dominant condition according to the communists at the Federal Reserve.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BUICK RACER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You all, might want to look at this web page

HERE </div></div>

Excellent summary by GM. Thanks Roberta!

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Haven't noticed any 'fire sale' ads that show deep discounts</div></div>

We've got your share down here in SoCal. Again today, even the Prius was being offered by a Toyota dealership with a <span style="text-decoration: underline">dealer </span>discount of $3,000. Some of those posh SUVs have manufacturer/dealer discount packages of $15,000.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...heavy on farms and ranches. Those people buy trucks and SUV's and you can see that in the percentage of trucks and SUV's stocked on the lots.</div></div>

Same here in SoCal. A short drive into the 'back country' or the desert will get you to the Big 3 dealer lots with ten rows of trucks and six sedans. Not a Mustang, Corvette, or King Ranch to be seen. Working trucks are it.

Triva for consideration: The Big 3 tradition of introducing new models in the late fall was derived from the agricultural cycle. Most farmers had their harvest in and money in hand in the fall so that's when they bought vehicles. For cash. It was a brave old world.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Beat's not having it, which is <span style="text-decoration: underline">obviously</span> the dominant condition according to the communists at the Federal Reserve. </div></div>

JMC's Formula for Congress or the Fed:

1. You can't play if you have a FICO score under 780

2. You can't play if you can't balance a household checkbook

3. You can't play if you have ever done a BK

4. You must attend Dave Ramsey's Money Makeover course

My hunch is the first three would eliminate 90% of the candidates.

Simple stuff.

Cheers,

JMC

[Reatta Man]

John,

Community organizers don't file a BK. They just apply for another government program or grant.

By the way, you're rich. Your new tax rate will be updated by April 15, 2010 just in time for the 2009 CY. Bank on it.

And, if you pay cash for everything, you could have aFICO score of zero.

Joe

[Guest Reatta1]

Well, I looked at and read Roberta's link and looks to me like it is more scare tactic than what would actually happen in a BK filing. They aren't just going to abruptly abandon their industry and go away. They will go through the BK process, re-organize and come out better for it. Yes, there will be some pain but pain is good for the soul, in this case, the country and industries souls. If in the process, they can also lose some of the insidious 'government' involvemnet, that would be even better. Nature, and business, abhors a void and when one occurs, something always fills it. The same would happen in the auto industry.

[Guest Reatta1]

Sorry John, but you are never going to change Dave's mind on anything. I'm simply not going to respond any more to him on that particular issue. He knows more about it than I do, so he can have the last say.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">He knows more about it than I do, so he can have the last say.</div></div>

Last say:

Nobody here knows more about this than the Federal Reserve. To think that you do, or that they're somehow biased in this area, takes an amazing degree of conceit.

Perhaps it's appropriate that this discussion is taking place over Thanksgiving weekend. It's amazing the degree to which so many of us do not have an appreciation for what we have, materially and in more important matters, and how special that is.

We've been trained to play the role of victims for so long (<span style="font-style: italic">Our own government, here in 'the land of the free", has been described as a parasite on this thread!</span>), that we don't know how to be thankful any more.

Face it, we're all rich.

[Guest Skyking]

Here's a good article that should be on the front page of every newspaper, but won't.

[MarkV]

"We've been trained to play the role of victims for so long (Our own government, here in 'the land of the free", has been described as a parasite on this thread!), that we don't know how to be thankful any more."

The Democratic Party has been excellent at doing that, keeping the poor poor, through social programs which dont work and then when the big three come to them for a loan, they waffle and waver and try to look tough, when they were and are handing out money right and left to everyone. And thankful for what? thankful for a useless congress? overspending? mortgaging everything? not trying to control gas prices by drilling here?

And we are not 'rich' we are only considered 'rich' if we can pay taxes. The term 'rich' is a gray area because there is always someone who has more!

[old-tank]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nobody here knows more about this than the Federal Reserve.</div></div>

Substitute 'Federal Reserve' with the name of the agency or individual of choice...NOBODY has a freakin' clue...

[BUICK RACER]

Check this link out!

[Guest Skyking]

Taken from Roberta's link: "Tell your U.S. Senators and Representatives that support for the U.S. auto industry is in America’s best economic interest and is a sound investment toward a more competitive future."

Why the heck should we tell them, shouldn't they already know!!! Are they even on this planet??????

[BUICK RACER]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Taken from Roberta's link: "Tell your U.S. Senators and Representatives that support for the U.S. auto industry is in America’s best economic interest and is a sound investment toward a more competitive future."

Why the heck should we tell them, shouldn't they already know!!! Are they even on this planet?????? </div></div>

That's the problem they aren't on the same page as the rest of us, the main problem is they gave the world away to quick loans to anybody that said they needed money, and a house they really could not afford, and everybody uses credit cards to buy stuff they don't really need but to keep up with the "Jones"

Nobody cares to tell the real story, tho.

[Reatta Man]

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Government isn't the solution to our problem; Government IS the problem!"

"A troubled and afflicted mankind looks to us, pleading for us to keep our rendezvous with destiny; that we will uphold the principles of self-reliance, self-discipline, morality, and, above all, responsible liberty for every individual that we will become that shining city on a hill."

"You and I, as individuals, can, by borrowing, live beyond our means, but for only a limited period of time. Why, then, should we think that collectively, as a nation, we're not bound by that same limitation? We must act today in order to preserve tomorrow."

</span>

<span style="font-style: italic"> -- President Ronald Reagan</span>

[Guest John Chapman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...if you pay cash for everything, you could have aFICO score of zero...</div></div>

So... we shouldn't have a problem finding candidates for above mentioned positions that have FICO scores, right?

Cheers,

JMC