28 fast four stalling and hard starting any ideas??

[henryalbert]

i recently bought a 28 fastfour sedan and shes hard to start.only when i jump her off with twelve volts and she spins over fast will she start then run strong for about 15-20 minutes then stall !i just pulled the tank off and cleaned her out and sealed it with a sealer kit and also blew out the main line!i also took the vacume tank apart cleaned and inspected it then put her back together but she still has the same symptoms!i also took the carb apart and resealed eveything and inspected the float wich was fine!she has plenty of spark at the points also along with new plugs.my next step is to pull off the head and decarbonize everything and replace the head gasket. would that have anything to do with it such as the head gasket unsealing at a certain temp on these old timers??

[nearchoclatetown]

You shouldn't have to use 12 volts to start. What is the compression? Valves been adjusted? You've not said what condition the ignition is in. How long must you wait before it will restart. What do you have to do to restart? Maybe condensor or coil quits when hot? Is the vent in the gas cap open? Try leaving the cap off to test it.

[Guest simplyconnected]

What happens when you pour gas down the carb? Will it continue to run? We need more info. It's easy to tell if you engine is starved for gas, pushes too much gas, etc. Do you smell gas? Is the choke stuck shut? Sometimes timing that's too far advanced will cause hard starting (and backfire). Sometimes coils fail when they heat up. What have you checked?

You may have an electrical problem, either a weak 6-volt battery, or bad cables/connections. Buy 1/0 (one-ought) copper stranded cable, for your starting AND ground leads. Welding wire works the very best. It has hundreds of strands and is very flexible. Fasten the ground cable as close to the starter motor as you can, on the engine block. Use 'crimp' connectors where ever possible, and DON'T solder the connections. Crimping copper lugs onto copper cable makes the connection 'one piece' of copper. A good electrical contractor's store should have welding cable and Burndy or T&B lugs. Just tell them you are doing a classic car.) If you talk real nice, they might crimp a couple lugs on the ends for you.

[Guest imouttahere]

simplyconnected, this is a '28 Fast Four that we are talking about.

You can't pour gas down an updraft carburetor.

And there's no automatic choke to get stuck.

And why would you advise henry albert not to solder a electrical connection? Everybody knows that crimped connections are far inferior to soldered ones. Crimping DOES NOT make the connection "one piece of copper"! Far from it!

Is this that same old wives' tale that I have heard occasionally from people who know nothing about electricity, who believe that solder is a "high-resistance" material?

[nearchoclatetown]

DBBilly, I was thinking the same 3 things.

[henryalbert]

thank guys for your help ive only been a mechanic briefly for 40 yrs or so.i just thought mabe someone ran into the same problem.i know the metal from yesteryear doesnt have the same makeup of today and figured mabe the head might expand and unseal the gasket easily.i found out the hard way when i was trying to remove the head from my 29 dodge engine.i was prying up on it and the top of the block caved in!!!im going through the process of elimination and any ideas from expeirenced dodge guys would be helpfull!! thanx henry

[Guest simplyconnected]

I don't have a 28fast four, but I think everyone understands my intent. If manually inserting gas sustains running, then the engine is starved for gas. If air is choked off, then the mixture is too rich.

I know electrical (trust me). By careful design, the ONLY lead car manufacturers use in electrical, is the battery terminals. It's the only part they couldn't get away from. If lead were a better splice method, OEM's would have used it all through the 40's, & 50's, on all their splices. Why didn't they?

Hard facts: Lead has over TWELVE TIMES more resistance than copper. The resistance of Copper is (1.72×10 to the negative 8th power), and the resistance of Lead is (2.2×10 to the negative 7th power). Remember, the LOWER number is less resistance, so let me rephrase:

Copper = .0000000172-ohms per meter

__Lead = .00000022-ohms/m

This is certainly not a wives tale or myth. It is commonly known throughout the world. From this, you should see why using the body steel for a ground is convenient, but a VERY BAD idea. Here is a resistance chart of ALL metals, for your reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity

Notice that Copper is only surpassed by Silver.

When you make a splice, filling the air gaps with lead is FAR worse than mashing the air out, making all the metal as one (as close to zero resistance as possible). Fine quality lugs (Thomas & Betts or Burndy brands) are coated in silver, for two reasons: it makes the copper lug compatable with aluminum, and silver has the lowest resistance. A 'second best' solution is, using wire nuts. Quality wire nuts (Ideal or Scotch brand) have a conical metal spring inside. When twisted over bare wires, the cone digs into the outside surface of the wire while it tightens the conductors together, squeezing air out.

Every splice the power company makes is NEVER in lead, and usually crimped.

[Guest imouttahere]

The reason that auto manufacturers and the phone company don't solder more connections is because it is too time-consuming, not because it makes a poorer connection.

Have you ever looked at the screw connections inside your telephone junction box? I'll bet they're corroded. Eventually your phone line will become noisy, and the telephone company will have to come out and clean the connections at your junction box. This would not be necessary if the connections were soldered, but the phone company thinks this is too much work. I guess they'd rather send the repairman out every 5 years or so to clean all the corrosion off the connections.

Your figures concerning conductivity are not relevant for two reasons: 1. You are using so little solder that the difference in conductivity between copper and solder is negligible; and 2. the solder REALLY makes the connection "one piece", unlike crimping.

If solder is such a high-resistance material, as you claim, then why do they use it in electronic circuits and printed circuit boards involving circuits operating at only a few microvolts (e.g., the front end of radio receivers)? If there was ever an instance where prevention of signal loss was important, that is it. Yet all the connections are soldered rather than, for example, wire-wrapped (which would be easier and cheaper).

I've heard your wives' tales about solder before, always from the uninformed. Once I had a technician work on my furnace, and he noticed that I had removed all the wire nuts on the electrical connections and soldered them. He said that soldering the connections created a higher-resistance connection than the wire nuts did. What poppycock!

[Guest simplyconnected]

DBBilly, Your professional furnace contractor is directly responsible (licensed, insured and bonded) for his products and workmanship in your home. He must strictly follow the National Electrical Code (written by the National Fire Protection Association) http://www.nfpa.org/index.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1 . Further, he cannot assume responsibility for your soldered connections, and is obligated to correct the situation before he leaves. After all, 'he's the last one to work on it.' <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DBBilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Once I had a technician work on my furnace, and he noticed that I had removed all the wire nuts on the electrical connections and soldered them. <span style="font-weight: bold">He said that soldering the connections created a higher-resistance connection than the wire nuts did.</span> What poppycock! </div></div> By what authority do you believe soldered connections are superior? There is none, and your false sense of security is deeply entrenched in old, unsafe methods. Do you realize the blower motor requires 400% of 'full load current' upon startup? Your solder connections can melt and arc. A wire nut secures bare copper conductors tightly together, with less resistance than solder. Wire nuts are approved by UL, your city's electrical inspector, and your insurance company. Solder IS NOT. Ask your city's Electrical Inspector, and you will learn.

We are discussing a CAR, not a phone or furnace. It uses DC, which is even MORE demanding than AC because it never 'lets go'. With regards to electrical wiring, a car's invironment is extremely unfriendly especially under the hood, because of the presence of oils and greases, gasoline, vibration, combustable vapors, and extreme cycles of heat and cold. Car manufacturers go to great expense to ensure their electrical connections are safe. None of them are soldered; haven't been for many decades.

Ohm’s law states, power drop happens as a direct result from: current squared times resistance. Adding more current, or more resistance, drops the voltage. Aside from the starting circuit, consider 20-30amps are flowing with only six volts pushing in a car's branch circuits. It’s easy to see why most electrical problems happen at connections, because that is where the most resistance is. Crimping copper to copper or copper to silver-plate is a far better spice with much less resistance than using lead. Your analogy using printed circuit boards doesn't wash because when a PC board fails, it is usually at a component's solder joint, either from vibration, or from heat caused by the solder's resistance.

[Jim Anselmo]

OK guys, remember it's not lead, but tin/lead that solder is made of. Seems like the best of both worlds would be to crimp the connection then fill with solder to eliminate the air gaps......

[Guest imouttahere]

One thing about a newsgroup: anybody can express his opinion, even if it's wrong.

simplyconnected, you have utterly failed to explain why electronic equipment manufacturers solder all the connections in their products, especially where low (microvolt) signals are involved. If solder were <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> a poor conductor, they would just wire-wrap the connections.

The <span style="font-style: italic">reason</span> that a soldered connection has much less resistance than a mechanical one is that electrons can only flow through the actual physical contact area between the metals. So, for example, in the case of a terminal attached to a wire, soldering the connection attaches 100% of the contact area of the wire to 100% of the contact area of the terminal, whereas with a crimped connection, you are probably only getting about 50% of the area of the wire in contact with the terminal. Now let's take the case of two spliced wires being soldered together. Because you are getting so much <span style="font-style: italic">more</span> of the wires' surface area in electrical contact by soldering the splice, the splice actually has a lot less resistance than an equivalent length of wire would have.

Your unsupported statement that soldered connections will run hot and melt is based on your same wives' tale; <span style="text-decoration: underline">i.e.</span> that soldered connections introduce a high resistance. The only reason such a connection would become hot is if it were a high resistance, but it is not. A soldered connection has <span style="font-style: italic">less</span> resistance than the wire in the rest of the circuit due to the aforementioned increased contact area, and because two thicknesses of wire, rather than only one, are carrying the current. So if the wire is going to overheat somewhere, it will do so elsewhere in the circuit, not at the soldered connection.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Henry Albert, I profoundly apologize for hijacking your thread. It is wrong and not my intention. This is a great forum where members freely help each other, either by steering them to the real authority, or by expressing their solutions for everyone to scrutinize.

Electricity handled wrongly can be of great danger, if you ever had wires burn, you know. The National Fire Protection Agency wrote our National Electrical Code, based on prior catastrophes, and resulting precautions. A board of professionals from ninteen industries, including electrical manufacturers and power producing companies presides over it (listed on page one). Every manufacturer of electrical devices, appliances, and licensed electricians nationwide, must use this authority as the MINIMUM standard by law. Many cities have expanded the NEC into even stricter mandates: Dearborn, Michigan does not allow aluminum wire in any residence, and in Chicago and Milwaukee, all household wiring must be in steel conduit, even inside stud walls. The NEC is the authority by which I defer because I am a Master Electrician, apprenticed through the US Dept of Labor and UAW/Ford Joint Apprenticeship Committee.

There is no argument over splices, taps, and connections for AC or DC, high voltage or low voltage. The NEC has all requirements meticulously organized under each application starting with ARTICLE 110 —REQUIREMENTS FOR ELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS. By the way, your car wiring follows the NEC, which always prevails in court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code If you have a better method, submit it to the NEC board for approval.

[henryalbert]

so basically if i sodamise my car with a sodomy iron she should start!! why didnt i think of that!!?? thanx guys!!!

[nearchoclatetown]

So Henry Albert, where were we? Do you still have to spin it with a 12 volt battery?

[Guest imouttahere]

"Henry Albert, I profoundly apologize for hijacking your thread."

Well, I'm <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> apologizing!

If anybody doesn't want to read the "soldered connection debate", they can easily skip over our posts; no big deal. Convincing people to keep quiet when they don't know what they're talking about is a lot more important to me than whether or not a thread has been "hijacked".

simplyconnected, you have been entirely unable to contradict my position with any scientific arguments, so you continually fall back on the national electrical code. However, that reliance is misplaced, because the Code only establishes <span style="font-style: italic">minimum</span> standards. It is not a violation of the Code to use methods of electrical connection which are <span style="font-style: italic">superior</span> to Code-specified practice, but which are not mentioned in the Code merely because virtually nobody uses them since they are too time-consuming for most production jobs. For example, the Code doesn't specify that inert-gas electrical bonding of a connection complies with the Code, either, but that's what NASA uses on the space shuttle. So are you saying that NASA should replace all of its bonded electrical connections with wire nuts because that's what the electrical code specifies?

Again, what nonsense! When you are wrong, why can't you just admit it gracefully, like <span style="font-style: italic">everybody else</span> on here does? Your insecurity is a very unflattering personality characteristic.

[henryalbert]

ok im wrong!!i shouldnt sodomise my car because its against the law!!!i guess my only alternitave is to try a new coil then have sex in the back seat!!!my apologies!!

[Paul Bohlig]

Okay, so now we know all of you are the smartest electrical engineers in the world.

What happened to answering the original question: Engine stalls, thought the idea was to keep these 80 plus year old cars on the road?

Agree that good electrical connections are essential. How about the next step?

Paul

[Guest nofrills33]

Next time there is a p___ing contest , remind me to wear a rain coat. For us novices out here -this is the kind of stuff that keeps us away. We just want help, not an intelligence test! Does anyone know where I can get a sodomy iron?

[nearchoclatetown]

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I have to use channel lock pliers to make up my battery terminal connections. I always have and will continue to solder them to make a tight connection, because it works.

[Guest imouttahere]

"For us novices out here -this is the kind of stuff that keeps us away."

My, you are sensitive, aren't you? Are you perhaps related to the princess who was the main character in Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale, "The Princess and the Pea"?

[Guest nofrills33]

Sensitive?.... no.... fairy tales?.... gave them up long ago-(glad to see you have hung on to them still) Tired of people desperately trying to impress others-immensely!

Again, the point is-some of us log on to ask questions hoping to receive

assistance, not long winded diatribes about who knows more than whom rather than just some simple information. I think we are able to read what is submitted, check the info for reliability, and move on.

I acknowledge your mechanical superiority and command of fairy tales. Just remember-some of us would just like some friendly info and not a berating for what we post- from whatever knowledge base we come from.

No need to respond back. You made your point-this is an info forum and you and I have already taken up too much space!

[henryalbert]

are there any gynocologists out there that can give us some info we can sink our teeth into!!??i find solder and wire lugs to be boring!!besides i forgot what i asked to begin with!!

henry

[Guest imouttahere]

Oh my <span style="font-style: italic">god</span>, simplyconnected, you'd better call those highly-qualified electrical engineers at DX Engineering and tell them they don't know what they are doing! Obviously, those expensive connectors should be <span style="font-style: italic">crimped</span>, NOT soldered!

[Guest 1930]

I got to say this sorry but DBBilly you dont sound like a very happy person, I think you should give it a rest. Maybe find another forum that is dedicated to debating and being nasty to one another instead of this forum where we are supposed to be helping one another out. You do it your way he can do it his way I will do it my way. I am sure you have heard this before but you just dont know when to let go and in the meantime you dont care who you offend with your strong opinions. I thought I was a jerk sometimes but mow I feel much better about my shortcomings, thanks

[jan arnett (2)]

i am not sure if we answered your question. I think you have several problems and you need to separate the prolems. Your hard starting could be caused by bad connections but it also could be bad brush or armature. They could have a high resistance. A simple test without using a growler is see if the back of the starter is hot after starting. Your other problem could be valves that are set to close and when they get hot they will not close. I have had coils and condenser fail when they got hot and then work when they cooled down. A fuel problem could be with the vac. tank, vac. line, or carb. You need to eliminate each possible problem. The simplest way is when it stops check for a spark and eliminate the ignition system. Then work on possible fuel problems. I have been doing this for fifty years and if you break down the problem into small steps you can fix the problem. You are on the right track.

Jan

[Guest imouttahere]

"DBBilly [<span style="text-decoration: underline">sic</span>; no punctuation] you dont [<span style="text-decoration: underline">sic</span>] sound like a very happy person, [<span style="text-decoration: underline">sic</span>, incorrect punctuation] I think you should give it a rest."

Oh, 1930, are you a psychologist? Please tell us your qualifications!

No, I am perfectly happy. I am just trying to prevent the spread of misinformation by simplyconnected. Are you a friend of his or something?

I always have, and always will, "call them as I see them", and I would appreciate it if you would stay out of the dispute unless you have something pertinent to add to the discussion.

So if you want to add something substantive to the discussion, why don't you explain to us why all the highly-qualified engineers at DX Engineering, as well as those at other electronic concerns, are so wrong-headed (at least in simplyconnected's opinion) as to believe that soldered connections are highly superior to crimped ones? Or are you only interested in casting aspersions?

Incidentally, I have received Private Messages from several members of the forum, saying how glad they were that I took simplyconnected on because they are sick and tired of the highly-dogmatic and argumentative way in which he presents his incorrect opinions, and of arguing with him.

You might also want to learn correct punctuation and what a sentence is.

Thanks for reading.

[Guest 1930]

Yep you sure are right, I aint nearly as smart as you

No I do not know simply connected, I dont know personally alot of the people that are on this board as they choose to for whatever reason to hide behind false titles such as simplyconnected and D.Bbilly and 30 Dodge, my name is Jason Anderson and I live in Brandon FL, not sure where I got 30 Dodge from except when I signed up to this forum it asked me a screen name, I never had a computer before accessing this website so I thought I had to use some other name other than my own because it seemed that is what everyone else had done. I am starting to think though that people use screenames for the same reason that they tint their windows in their cars pitch black and that is so that they can drive right over anyone they choose and get away with it just like I feel that you have done to a couple of people that have submitted their opinion to this particular topic, insinuating that someone could quite possibly have fairy blood in them is a little harsh dont you think, and continuing to submit your strongheaded opinions when clearly the person whom you seem to have taken upon yourself to castrate has stopped responding to your baiting. I am done with this now, and by the way as I am sure you have noticed I cannot spell so well either and I have to admit I have a very tiny penis so can we just move forward and help a fellow Dodge owner out and put behind all this harrassing.

[Guest imouttahere]

"...insinuating that someone could quite possibly have <span style="font-style: italic">fairy blood</span> in them..[.]clearly the person whom you seem to have taken upon yourself to <span style="font-style: italic">castrate</span> has stopped responding to your baiting..[.] and I have to admit <span style="font-style: italic">I have a very tiny penis..."</span>

Where do you get this stuff? I challenge you to point out where I did any of these things.

The only purpose of my posts has been to prevent the spread of misinformation by simplyconnected.

I'm not trying to hide from anyone. My name is Bill Crowell, and I live in Diamond Springs, California. I will <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> call them as I see them. You'd better get used to it.

[1929Chrysler]

I aint no grammor expert or no dr.phil and I got an EXTREMELY small penis!! But I have to say... I'm going to agree with simply connected!! not because he made more sense.. but because I just want to get DB even more fired up!!!

I wonder if DX has a vested interest in selling solder?!

DB... Don't bight my head off!! I don't know a damn thing!!! Just adding to the entertainment!!!

Dan

[henryalbert]

hello remember me??i pulled my head and found some burnt exhaust valves so i bought some new ones and ill lapp them in and put her back together again and see what happens!! im weighing in with 6 inches i guess an average penis!!dont let me bother you just continue with your soldering lessons!! henry

[JACK M]

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #CC0000"> I got more draggin than any of you got hangin.

I dont know $4it.

Loves to party.

The bantering is fun to watch as it brings out the ignorance.

Keep up the good work guys.

Admired by some.

Wanted by many.

Feared by most.

Did I forget to tell you that my experience would out weigh any of your book learnin.</span>

The rest of you should get a life too ! !</span></span></span>

[henryalbert]

at the risk of solder and john wayne draggin his dick im getting plenty of spark and i did a valve job wich im gettin 50 lbs of pressure across the board!i guess the next thing is to try and match up my timing marks but so far nuttin!!