Guest steakneggs Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I'm converting my Teves to a Riviera unit. The hole in the Riviera pushrod is significantly smaller than the Teves hole. And there's not enough material there to make the hole bigger. To grind the pin smaller I would have to remove the brake pedal. But there's a black box in the way of getting the pivot bolt out called the Central Power Supply. I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 You need to get all the parts from the Riviera.I don't know how many post you read about this change, but I am not in favor of the change over for several reasons.First the Teves unit is a good system, If you would spend the time learning the Teves system that you will be spending on the conversion, you could keep the Teves unit in tip-top shape.Changing from the Teves hurts the value of your Reatta.You don't gain anything with the conversion, you only loose.And......good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWC Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Sorry Barney I do not agree, I am the one that has the Teves unit that has the hard brake pedal but only when its cold, after it warms up it's fine and NOBODY can tell me why. These systems when they work are ok but it has more problems then what it's worth. If you want a GOOD daily driver and not worried about keeping it stock I think the change is a good idea, and keeping the stock unit in tip top shape can cost an arm and a leg.Remember this is just my point of view, so please no hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Cheer up, it could be a PowerMaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex_houston Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I don't have it in front of me now bot how about cutting the end off both push rods, swapping, and welding them together?This has worked well on several conversions on other restorations I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanx for the suggestions. Do to my aversion to working under a dash of a car as criminally complicated as this one, I think I will ream the hole out to the right size and if the remaining metal is too thin then I'll mig a bead along there to beef it. Also I'm not real concerned about resale value at this point. I'm trying to prevent this thing from becoming a parts car. These things cost as much as a Corvette when new. Now a decent Reatta can be had for $3K. But it is not viable transportation with that pathetic Teves system sucking up time and resources and the threat of losing 90% of your brakes from something like a clogged reservoir. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 JWC.......refresh my memory what have you done?* Replaced accumulator?* Flushed system?* Replaced relay?* Changed pressure switch?* Cleaned connectionsHow cold is it when the problem occurs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Steak,Please document what is needed to do the change over as you go by posting it here when there Teves system has failed and can't be repaired at a reasonable price. There will be a lot of other Reatta owners who will need to do the changeover as out cars get older and the parts get more scarce. Barney may be right. The Teves may be a good system and I have learned to live with it, but once it gets to the point where I am facing spending hundreds of dollars and beating my head against the wall to get it working it is time for it to go. I am speaking from a point of having a weekend driver and not a show car. If I were Barney and some of the other collectors on this forum I would be wanting to keep the brake system stock at almost any cost. But for a daily driver or weekend driver like I have, at some point keeping it stock just doesn't always make sense. If my Teves system ever goes down and I can't repair it I will be seeking information on how to do the changeover as you are. That is why I ask you to let us all know what is involved in changing to the vacuum booster brake system by posting the steps involved for the changeover here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonlabree Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 <span style="color: #FF0000"> </span> This may be a great idea for some of you Reatta drivers, BUT the rarer these cars get the more the collector value will be. And if they are not stock (and that means compltely) the lower their value will be, even daily drivers.The brake system is Not diffucult to keep in good working order as some of you have stated. You only have to follow the guidelines in the shop manual. The only problem with this system is that it is different from what we are used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWC Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Barney what I have done to date is flushed the system, bought a new accumulator, also tried a known good one from my other Reatta, I swapped out relays, changed the pressure switch with a known good one, the one thing I have not done as of yet was clean the connections, I will try this to see if it will work. I really think it's some where in the valve body.The pedal is only hard when its freezing out and after it runs and warms up for about 15-20 min's it's fine, sounds like ice somewhere in the system but I'm not sure how to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Sounds like you have done all the correct things, and icing does seem like the problem.If you have a chance, try this......Remove the pressure switch. Plug in the connector to the switch so it will sense low pressure and send the signal to the relay.Plug the pressure switch hole with an old rag.... then for 1-2 seconds, turn on the ignition (make certain you hear the pump run) this should clear the orfice between the pump and pressure switch.This small hole can get plugged, bad picture attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I'm not sure I see a disagreement here. Those who say the Teves is workable if maintained are probably correct. I don't think anyone with a working system is thinking of tearing it out, and most are doing the things reccommended to keep their systems viable. Still, few of us bought the cars new. That means we inherited the sins of our predecessors. Steak and I have tried just about everything one could do to restore the system. If one bought a new relay, accumulator and pressure switch you would have $250 into it minimum. He and I were lucky to be able to switch in good relays and switches, so we are only down $100 or so for the accumulator, and after that and a complete flush we still do not have a working system. The next question is whether it is worth another $500+ to keep the car stock. That is a question to be answered by investment advisors or left to personal taste. I will say that when NX and I suggested we [meaning several of us] put it a few buck each to buy a known bad Teves to break down for possible rebuild options, [NX said he had a lead on some suppliers who might be able to get the iternal cups, etc] and there was zero, that's 0, response from either those with parts cars or other forum members, a unanimous vote I respect and accept. That brings us back to one option for those with bad systems: $500+ for a retail rebuilt on a car worth $3k, at present, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I actually offered to rebuild the master cylinder if someone would just supply a core to experiment with and no one offered. BUT someone (anyone here?) was willing to spend $676.66 on eBay for a new one which would be no better than a properly rebuilt one with new parts.I really don't understand the logic but I don't need to. I have been a journeyman machinist and mechanic all my life. I have retired but I am still a member of the IAM. Given enough time and money I can fix most anything mechanical. If my Teves goes out I will try to fix it. But that doesn't mean I am willing to spend a huge amount of time and money on anything that can be replaced easily at a reasonable cost. It just doesn't make sense.I respect the group that says fix it at all cost. But when it comes to my money I will be in the camp with those who choose to do what makes good economic sense.Yes, I'm done now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 I didn't respond because I don't have a parts car. I am however interested in going out to the local u-pick lot and grabbing one out of a Cadillac[no Reattas in the lot, however I believe they are the same]. The thing is living in Wi. the temperature this month of Jan.has been close to zero and with any wind it is 10-20 below with the wind chill. Then when the temp comes up we get snow and lots of it. I will grab it and send one to you Ronnie and you can rebuild it if you want. Just give me some time. Regarding the removal of this unit how do I remove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Just to clarify my earlier post, I meant to suggest we are left with two options, the $500+ rebuild, and removing the system and replacing it with a non-abs modification. I too have scoured the pull-ur-parts yards for our systems and found nothing. I looked at every gm product in the 2 self service yards in in the South Bay including eldos and sevilles and saw nothing exactly the same as ours. Closest I saw was on a Saab, and even that was not identical. I assume Jim and Randy do not want to part with their cores because, given what we just saw on ebay, it is impossible to predict what even a bad one might be worth in time. I fully respect their decision. I can only say that if rebuilding by a forum member like Ron proved feasible, it seems to me their cores would suddenly go from their weight in silver, to their weight in gold. Ron, I am going to try Barney's suggestion about blowing out the pressure switch orifice. If that fails, I will remove my unit and send it to you for investigation. If rebuilding proves infeasible, just put it back together so I can use it for a core exchange if I elect to buy a rebuilt. [by the way, if I confused your offer to look into this with NX, I am sorry] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Thanks to everyone who has offered to help. As soon as someone commits to send one I will let the forum know.IF I receive one I will see if it can be rebuilt at a reasonable cost, assuming I will be able to find the parts. Once I get one rebuilt I will return it to the owner for testing (at your own risk) as I don't want to remove mine and cause unnecessary problems for me. If it is found to work properly we will come up with a charge that is fair to anyone who needs one rebuilt.If anyone has any documentation related to the Teves master cylinder it would really help for me to have a copy.Thanks - Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmck Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 I don't have an opportunity to compare right now, but I have a teves on a 1989 ninety eight. My recollection of it is that it appears to be the same or very close. Point being (if I'm right) other GM resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I got the pushrod reamed out to fit the Reatta pedal. There's not much meat left but I'll live with it. Another way to do it would be to cut the end off of the Riv pushrod and thread it to fit the screw-on Teves end. It looks like it's 8mm X 1.25. The Riv pushrod is 1/4 inch longer so I had to shim the booster at the firewall with 2 layers of linoleum(!)so that the pedal would have some free play. The Riv m/c has 4 ports and the Reatta only has 3 lines. Another rear brake line must be run which is not a big deal in my case because I already replaced the one rusted one with a universal line from Advance Auto. Only one of the lines matched the Riv m/c. I'll be working on that dilemma this week - Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 This is to that person or anybody who wants a Teves core to dissect. I will part with mine but the master cylinder portion of it was/is OK. It might still be usable. It was that stinking pump that quit and also the reservoir that was/is clogged. My factory manual devotes 125 pages of ways to waste your life trying to fix that boat anchor but it does not go into the bowels of the hydraulic unit. It would seem that if it were rebuildable it would be in the factory manual. From reading brake-related postings on this forum, it doesn't seem that the master cylinder causes much grief. It's the pump, accumulator, control valve, relays and associated wiring that screws up. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Don't Use a Riviera Unit for Teves Conversion!I was under the impression that the Riv unit was a direct bolt-on installation. Autopartwarehouse.com lists it as a direct replacement on a Reatta. Also, my factory manual covers it which led me to believe that the cars were similar. For starters the brake pedal hole was about an eighth of an inch too small. The pushrod was about a quarter inch too long necessitating shimming the unit at the firewall. The unit does have the correct metric I S O (mushroom shaped) flares but only one of them has threads that match the Reatta lines. The other three have to have the Riv nipples installed and reflared. But the worst part is having to replace the single proportioner valve in the rear with a T fitting because the Riv unit has integral prop valves. There's got to be a more suitable unit out there! Ideally, a better one would have no prop valves and three ports (two front one rear) to match the Reatta lines. The dimensions to fit in the firewall are: 3 and 3/8 inches bolt center to bolt center horizontaly and 3.5 inches vertically. The pushrod must be at least 5 and 3/8 from the firewall to the center of the pedal hole. These measurements are taken under the dash of the donor car. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest F14CRAZY Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Someone give me like $3k and I could do that '91+ ABS conversion a lot sooner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I've only spent about $120 so far. With a more suitable unit, the whole job could be done for the cost of the unit, a quart of brake fluid, and a ten dollar Harbor Freight flaring tool. I just discovered that it was/is not necessary to shim the booster at the firewall if the pushrod is a little too long. The brake light switch, which acts as a pedal stop, is adjustable. I'll probably pull the unit back out at some point and remove the linoleum. I took it for a test drive yesterday with no vac assist and air in the lines. Scary, but the beginning of a Teves-free existence. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Eaton Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Steak, just wondering, is your will up to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Actually I'm building this car for my wife. Just kidding. Since '68 or so, all cars have dual-chamber master cylinders in case of a catastrophic leak somewhere. I'm not real worried about totally losing my brakes. Plus it won't be leaving my garage until I have full pedal with no leaks out of the numerous unions and amateur flares on this thing. Thanx for the concern for my beneficiaries. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Steak, thanks for documenting the problems you are encountering with the change over and how you are trying to overcome them. I find it useful as information we may all need sometime in the future. When you are done, I hope you explain what proportioning valves and other things you had to add, change or modify. It will really be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 Didn't have a good day today. I Bought and installed rebuilt front calipers because bleeder valves were previously broken off. Removed a bunch of air, but no pedal at all! I had some pedal the other day when I drove it after a few pumps. But now nothing. Fluid is flowing with no bubbles out of all 4 bleeder valves (gravity). I didn't let the master cylinder run dry. I don't have anyone to help me pump the pedal. I try to recruit someone tomorrow. Also the Riv unit I aquired didn't come with the check valve or vac hose. I got one from a 91 Riv at a junk yard and installed it. It's fairly noisy when I step on the brake (with motor on). My manual shows something called a grommet that goes on the check valve. It's not the seal. That's something different. I have that. I need to pull one off myself at a junk yard to see if I'm missing something. At least I got this thing to where a neighborhood mechanic can help me. He was lost when it came to the Teves. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 PARTIAL SUCCESS! After yesterday's lack of progress I decided to unhook and plug the rear circuit to see if that's where the air pocket was hiding. Apparently it was/is because I got decent pedal with the front circuit only. But I still had no power assist. I decided to take it off the stands and get it out of the garage for a few days until I get some help. I took it down to the gas station to get the first splash of gas in a year and a half that didn't come from a gas can. The booster was leaking vacuum profusely from the interior of the car. It was barely driveable. And it was smoking a steammy kind of smoke. When I got back to the house I sat in the driveway for awhile to see if the smoke stopped. I happened to tap the brake and the wooshing noise had decreased. And the next time it stopped completely! And I had power assist!. I immediately took it for a short test drive. It feels great even with only the front brakes hooked up. I can skid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TommyH Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steakneggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can skid! </div></div> are you a ricer now? Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_REATAMANZ Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Your smoking brakes are the result of the Booster self applying. This occurs when the stack dimensions are out of wack. This could be the output rod from the master to the Booster and or the push rod. Lots of engineering goes into these dimensions to inusure proper stack basded on the output of the booster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I should have made it clearer that is was my exhaust that was smoking, not my brakes. I was sitting in the driveway at the time, not moving. I think it was because I hadn't driven it very far for the last year and a half. The problem with my booster is that it was leaking for some reason, actually sucking air out of the interior. The stack should be OK because it is the correct master for that booster and the pedal has some free play. I drove it around quite a bit yesterday and it has quit smoking and the brakes feel good. Sometime this week, when my back, knees and knuckles heal, I'm going to remove the unit and pull off those firewall shims which will give me another inch or so of pedal travel. Thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwebb Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Steak,Did you get all 4-brakes working ? Hopefully, when you get it all sorted-out, you will give us a Readers Digest version of what to do and not do for those who wish to give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I had all four for a few days but reluctantly had to disconnect the rears to isolate an air pocket that was causing a dangerously low pedal. I had to replace all of the rear lines due to rust, and run a second one because the Riv master has four ports. I won't be hooking them up again until I remove the firewall shims that I erroniously installed because of the different pushrod lengths. That should give me plenty of pedal to work with to get all four working. It feels normal already with the front two. I should get it 100% by this weekend. I am totally confident that it will perform as good as any vac-assist system when completed. And for less than $150! Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I removed the fuses from the three fuseholders on the firewall. I hope they all were for the ABS. The middle relay, (pump) looks like it partially melted, probably from being constantly on when the Teves was broke and recently with the Teves disconnected. Don't know. I am considering chopping off the harness where it comes out of a larger harness to clean up some clutter. Should be able to get maybe one rear brake by this weekend. Advance Auto is out of unions I need to run the second brake line. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I'm curious. Did you use the proportioning valve off the Riviera to balance the braking from front to rear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 The Riv master has two proportioning valves and yes I am using them because I don't have a choice. They are mounted to the master and must be used because the ports they screw into are not compatable with any line fitting that I have ever seen. It is an O ring connection. So to use the Riv master one must remove the Reatta prop valve near the left rear tire and replace it with a union. Then another line must be run because of the aforementioned second prop valve. T'ing the line at the master and at the rear is not acceptable because the Riv has a diagonally split chamber system where one front and the opposite rear share a chamber. If you were to lose a chamber you would lose all your brakes if the rears were T'ed. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Thanks for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I Plan on pulling the unit off this weekend to remove the firewall shims and maybe get one rear brake working. I can't do the other rear until I can get to a junk yard and get the lower right nipple (it's a weird size that I don't have in my impressive nipple collection) to make a plug for the master cylinder (so all my fluid doesn't run out) while I run the other rear line. A forum member is in the area and is supposed to help me, weather permitting. (I have a garage but not enough room in it to get the driver's door all the way open). I am concerned about a possible vac leak as the reserve vac dissipates rapidly. (wrong forum). Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Have you checked to see if there is supposed to be a check valve somewhere in the system to prevent the vacuum from getting away so fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Yes, there's always a check valve in this kind of system. I was reading last night in a manual for a different kind of vehicle about how to check them. I'll try something this weekend if the weather cooperates. Right now there's an inch of glare ice out there. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steakneggs Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I have been researching the feasibility of using a '91 vac unit next time I do one of these conversions. I wish I had one in front of me to measure. I saw one on the '91 that is on ebay. It looks like a two-port master cylinder with a separate ABS like on Egg's '99 Regal. Comparing part #s on Autopartswarehouse site showed that the same unit is used on '91 (only) Reattas, Rivieras, Eldorados, Sevilles, and Toronados. There should be quite a few used units out there. I would be not using the ABS unit. The front lines would have to be T'd into one. But the original Reatta prop valve and single rear line could remain unmolested. There's a '91 Riv at the junk yard I pass everyday I might check out. Steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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