alsancle

I know I have paid top dollar but I'm not sure I have every sold anything for top dollar. Dave's comment on a dealer being unable to pay top dollar is very true but it seems to be forgotten quite a bit. You sell to a dealer for your convenience with the idea that he needs to make a profit for his inconvenience.

I think the criterion that made this car different than a recent chop & drop job is: 1. World class chassis - Tipo 8 IF - not a 32 Ford V8. 2. Body built by known builder in period. 1931 on a 7 year old chassis. 3. Shown at prestigious auto shows in period (Geneva). 4. Known history with lots of photographic evidence. Here is a thread on the car: http://www.coachbuild.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=1285&p=3969&hilit=Ramseier#p3969 Pre-restoration this car sold for 1.4 million dollars, mix in another 800k to restore it you are looking at a 2 million dollar plus investment.

Bob, it originally had a torpedo body and was rebodied in 31 and shown at the Geneva motor show. The exceptional Isotta-Fraschini Tipo 8A on offer is known as "l'Isotta du marquis", a name given to it during the period it belonged to the late Yves Dalmier. In his celebrated book "Les roues de fortune", there are several hilarious pages on driving this car, or rather the adventures surrounding it. Dalmier tells us that the car, which was built in 1924, was initially given a " boule " torpedo body, original Isotta model. Some years later this was completely dismantled in the workshop of the Swiss coachbuilder Ramseier, in Worblaufen. According to Dalmier, " the only part of the first body to survive is a hint of the old bonnet, in the form of a Dural part, now useless, attached under the current bonnet." Ramseier created a new cabriolet body and exhibited the car at the Geneva Motor Show in 1932. Totally beautiful, the cabriolet body with steeply sloping running board gave this imposing automobile a lighter feel. - See more at: https://artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2400+++++354+&refno=10471007#sthash.tpJDMV3w.dpufFrench title Chassis n° N605 Engine n° 604 - From the Albert Prost collection - Absolutely exceptional - Just three family owners - Continuous, remarkable history - Original engine and second body At the start of the 1920s, no extravagance was too much and the prestige car manufacturers competed to offer the highest level of luxury and indulgence. At Isotta-Fraschini, the Tipo 8A, presented in 1924, followed the first series produced car, the Tipo 8, that had an inline 8-cylinder engine designed by Giustino Cattaneo. Weighing more than 2 tonnes, the Tipo 8A was given a 7.3-litre engine that while not overly powerful (approximately 110 bhp at 2,800 rpm), had an enormous amount of torque, so that it barely needed all three gears. Most of the cars built went to the US where people were crazy about this type of model, and an Isotta was more expensive than a Duesenberg. One of the most famous fans of the Isotta- Fraschini during his Hollywood years was Rudolph Valentino - he shared his nationality with this impressive automobile. A real show-stopper, the Isotta was perfect for cruising down the wide boulevards, or for a long journey on the open roads, lulled by the gentle roar of its special engine. Testimony to a carefree time, cars like the Tipo 8A were condemned to a short production run by the 1929 Crash. Nothing like these cars was seen again. The exceptional Isotta-Fraschini Tipo 8A on offer is known as "l'Isotta du marquis", a name given to it during the period it belonged to the late Yves Dalmier. In his celebrated book "Les roues de fortune", there are several hilarious pages on driving this car, or rather the adventures surrounding it. Dalmier tells us that the car, which was built in 1924, was initially given a " boule " torpedo body, original Isotta model. Some years later this was completely dismantled in the workshop of the Swiss coachbuilder Ramseier, in Worblaufen. According to Dalmier, " the only part of the first body to survive is a hint of the old bonnet, in the form of a Dural part, now useless, attached under the current bonnet." Ramseier created a new cabriolet body and exhibited the car at the Geneva Motor Show in 1932. Totally beautiful, the cabriolet body with steeply sloping running board gave this imposing automobile a lighter feel. Yves Dalmier bought the car in 1960, in rather extraordinary circumstances, even for the period, having placed a small ad asking for " any nice old cars ", or something similar. He was sent a letter, offering him this wonderful Isotta. After various twists and turns in the story, Dalmier finally took possession of the car in exchange for a Salmson S4 that he had bought to attract buyers...According to " Les roues de Fortune ", which has a reproduction of the seller's letter dating from June 1960, the Ramseier coachwork was commissioned by the seller's father-in-law who at that time was responsible for Omega watches in Geneva (the reason why the body had been built in a Swiss workshop, in Worblaufen). The letter addressed to Yves Dalmier noted that " this car is in a perfectly maintained condition ". Dalmier kept this formidable cruise ship for six years, covering some 12,000 km and carrying out work, including an engine re-build, to allow the car to continue providing good service. In 1966, following a reversal in fortunes (recounted in the second volume of his book "Les roues de misère"), Dalmier was forced to part with his substantial Isotta-Fraschini, and it was Albert Prost who bought it. And so, this car that was born in the 1920s, has known just three families with its definitive coachwork. A very rare occurrence. During the 1980s, Albert Prost had the car restored by the Ateliers de Restauration de Touraine, in Sorigny. It emerged with refurbished mechanical components and the magnificent coachwork repainted in cream, after a slight hesitation about the colour of the bonnet. There is an amusing anecdote about this : on display at Retromobile, a visitor passed by the car and exclaimed : " This is the car that my Grandfather built. " . Documents from the coachbuilder confirmed that it had indeed been the right choice of colours. Rarely driven and regularly maintained, this extraordinary car remains in superb condition today. It is a rare testimony to the excesses of the Roaring Twenties, before the Crash of 1929 put a halt to the extravagance. Everything about this Isotta is extravagant, although the perfectly balanced styling of the body makes it appear 'less' than it is. There is no other known example of this legendary model in France. With its continuous history, small number of owners, original engine and second body, this Isotta-Fraschini presents an opportunity that will not come again for a long time. It is for you to seize the exceptional opportunity that has arisen, for this Isotta is undoubtedly the most beautiful Isotta grand tourer, with the charismatic styling and undeniable beauty of an automotive masterpiece. "An insane bonnet, fantastic..." The book by Yves Dalmier, "Les roues de fortune", is full of anecdotes about the Isotta that he had between 1960 and 1966. Following the letter from the owner, the first contact he had with the car was a photo. His initial reactions are worth transcribing : " I took the photo in my hands, like a glass of water in the face. Surely, it was a dream ! In fact what I was looking at was a gigantic black and white cabriolet, appearing to fill every inch of the road it had stopped on. With extraordinary bicycle wings, enormous, connected to a curved running board sloping up to the front, an RR radiator grille and at the back, two huge spare wheels that stood higher than the trunk. Between the front and the back, a bonnet, just a bonnet, but an insane, fantastic bonnet. Squashed behind this was a " compartment " with half a steering wheel showing. And in the middle of this monster, right on the top, a tiny windscreen, like a fingernail stuck on the deck of a ship. These are the inadequate words that, after several years, describe the memories of this first contact. " (Extract from "Les roues de fortune, les roues de misère", by Yves Dalmier, illustrations by Jacques Liscourt, Éditions Automobilia, Monaco, 1991) Archives pictures : Prost Family collection Please note that this car will be sold without technical inspection. The engine of the car was probably upgraded at the end of the 1920s by Isotta Fraschini and corresponds to the specifications of the 8A Super Sport engine producing 160bhp. - See more at: https://artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2400+++++354+&refno=10471007#sthash.tpJDMV3w.dpufFrench title Chassis n° N605 Engine n° 604 - From the Albert Prost collection - Absolutely exceptional - Just three family owners - Continuous, remarkable history - Original engine and second body At the start of the 1920s, no extravagance was too much and the prestige car manufacturers competed to offer the highest level of luxury and indulgence. At Isotta-Fraschini, the Tipo 8A, presented in 1924, followed the first series produced car, the Tipo 8, that had an inline 8-cylinder engine designed by Giustino Cattaneo. Weighing more than 2 tonnes, the Tipo 8A was given a 7.3-litre engine that while not overly powerful (approximately 110 bhp at 2,800 rpm), had an enormous amount of torque, so that it barely needed all three gears. Most of the cars built went to the US where people were crazy about this type of model, and an Isotta was more expensive than a Duesenberg. One of the most famous fans of the Isotta- Fraschini during his Hollywood years was Rudolph Valentino - he shared his nationality with this impressive automobile. A real show-stopper, the Isotta was perfect for cruising down the wide boulevards, or for a long journey on the open roads, lulled by the gentle roar of its special engine. Testimony to a carefree time, cars like the Tipo 8A were condemned to a short production run by the 1929 Crash. Nothing like these cars was seen again. The exceptional Isotta-Fraschini Tipo 8A on offer is known as "l'Isotta du marquis", a name given to it during the period it belonged to the late Yves Dalmier. In his celebrated book "Les roues de fortune", there are several hilarious pages on driving this car, or rather the adventures surrounding it. Dalmier tells us that the car, which was built in 1924, was initially given a " boule " torpedo body, original Isotta model. Some years later this was completely dismantled in the workshop of the Swiss coachbuilder Ramseier, in Worblaufen. According to Dalmier, " the only part of the first body to survive is a hint of the old bonnet, in the form of a Dural part, now useless, attached under the current bonnet." Ramseier created a new cabriolet body and exhibited the car at the Geneva Motor Show in 1932. Totally beautiful, the cabriolet body with steeply sloping running board gave this imposing automobile a lighter feel. Yves Dalmier bought the car in 1960, in rather extraordinary circumstances, even for the period, having placed a small ad asking for " any nice old cars ", or something similar. He was sent a letter, offering him this wonderful Isotta. After various twists and turns in the story, Dalmier finally took possession of the car in exchange for a Salmson S4 that he had bought to attract buyers...According to " Les roues de Fortune ", which has a reproduction of the seller's letter dating from June 1960, the Ramseier coachwork was commissioned by the seller's father-in-law who at that time was responsible for Omega watches in Geneva (the reason why the body had been built in a Swiss workshop, in Worblaufen). The letter addressed to Yves Dalmier noted that " this car is in a perfectly maintained condition ". Dalmier kept this formidable cruise ship for six years, covering some 12,000 km and carrying out work, including an engine re-build, to allow the car to continue providing good service. In 1966, following a reversal in fortunes (recounted in the second volume of his book "Les roues de misère"), Dalmier was forced to part with his substantial Isotta-Fraschini, and it was Albert Prost who bought it. And so, this car that was born in the 1920s, has known just three families with its definitive coachwork. A very rare occurrence. During the 1980s, Albert Prost had the car restored by the Ateliers de Restauration de Touraine, in Sorigny. It emerged with refurbished mechanical components and the magnificent coachwork repainted in cream, after a slight hesitation about the colour of the bonnet. There is an amusing anecdote about this : on display at Retromobile, a visitor passed by the car and exclaimed : " This is the car that my Grandfather built. " . Documents from the coachbuilder confirmed that it had indeed been the right choice of colours. Rarely driven and regularly maintained, this extraordinary car remains in superb condition today. It is a rare testimony to the excesses of the Roaring Twenties, before the Crash of 1929 put a halt to the extravagance. Everything about this Isotta is extravagant, although the perfectly balanced styling of the body makes it appear 'less' than it is. There is no other known example of this legendary model in France. With its continuous history, small number of owners, original engine and second body, this Isotta-Fraschini presents an opportunity that will not come again for a long time. It is for you to seize the exceptional opportunity that has arisen, for this Isotta is undoubtedly the most beautiful Isotta grand tourer, with the charismatic styling and undeniable beauty of an automotive masterpiece. "An insane bonnet, fantastic..." The book by Yves Dalmier, "Les roues de fortune", is full of anecdotes about the Isotta that he had between 1960 and 1966. Following the letter from the owner, the first contact he had with the car was a photo. His initial reactions are worth transcribing : " I took the photo in my hands, like a glass of water in the face. Surely, it was a dream ! In fact what I was looking at was a gigantic black and white cabriolet, appearing to fill every inch of the road it had stopped on. With extraordinary bicycle wings, enormous, connected to a curved running board sloping up to the front, an RR radiator grille and at the back, two huge spare wheels that stood higher than the trunk. Between the front and the back, a bonnet, just a bonnet, but an insane, fantastic bonnet. Squashed behind this was a " compartment " with half a steering wheel showing. And in the middle of this monster, right on the top, a tiny windscreen, like a fingernail stuck on the deck of a ship. These are the inadequate words that, after several years, describe the memories of this first contact. " (Extract from "Les roues de fortune, les roues de misère", by Yves Dalmier, illustrations by Jacques Liscourt, Éditions Automobilia, Monaco, 1991) Archives pictures : Prost Family collection Please note that this car will be sold without technical inspection. The engine of the car was probably upgraded at the end of the 1920s by Isotta Fraschini and corresponds to the specifications of the 8A Super Sport engine producing 160bhp. - See more at: https://artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2400+++++354+&refno=10471007#sthash.tpJDMV3w.dpufFrench title Chassis n° N605 Engine n° 604 - From the Albert Prost collection - Absolutely exceptional - Just three family owners - Continuous, remarkable history - Original engine and second body At the start of the 1920s, no extravagance was too much and the prestige car manufacturers competed to offer the highest level of luxury and indulgence. At Isotta-Fraschini, the Tipo 8A, presented in 1924, followed the first series produced car, the Tipo 8, that had an inline 8-cylinder engine designed by Giustino Cattaneo. Weighing more than 2 tonnes, the Tipo 8A was given a 7.3-litre engine that while not overly powerful (approximately 110 bhp at 2,800 rpm), had an enormous amount of torque, so that it barely needed all three gears. Most of the cars built went to the US where people were crazy about this type of model, and an Isotta was more expensive than a Duesenberg. One of the most famous fans of the Isotta- Fraschini during his Hollywood years was Rudolph Valentino - he shared his nationality with this impressive automobile. A real show-stopper, the Isotta was perfect for cruising down the wide boulevards, or for a long journey on the open roads, lulled by the gentle roar of its special engine. Testimony to a carefree time, cars like the Tipo 8A were condemned to a short production run by the 1929 Crash. Nothing like these cars was seen again. The exceptional Isotta-Fraschini Tipo 8A on offer is known as "l'Isotta du marquis", a name given to it during the period it belonged to the late Yves Dalmier. In his celebrated book "Les roues de fortune", there are several hilarious pages on driving this car, or rather the adventures surrounding it. Dalmier tells us that the car, which was built in 1924, was initially given a " boule " torpedo body, original Isotta model. Some years later this was completely dismantled in the workshop of the Swiss coachbuilder Ramseier, in Worblaufen. According to Dalmier, " the only part of the first body to survive is a hint of the old bonnet, in the form of a Dural part, now useless, attached under the current bonnet." Ramseier created a new cabriolet body and exhibited the car at the Geneva Motor Show in 1932. Totally beautiful, the cabriolet body with steeply sloping running board gave this imposing automobile a lighter feel. Yves Dalmier bought the car in 1960, in rather extraordinary circumstances, even for the period, having placed a small ad asking for " any nice old cars ", or something similar. He was sent a letter, offering him this wonderful Isotta. After various twists and turns in the story, Dalmier finally took possession of the car in exchange for a Salmson S4 that he had bought to attract buyers...According to " Les roues de Fortune ", which has a reproduction of the seller's letter dating from June 1960, the Ramseier coachwork was commissioned by the seller's father-in-law who at that time was responsible for Omega watches in Geneva (the reason why the body had been built in a Swiss workshop, in Worblaufen). The letter addressed to Yves Dalmier noted that " this car is in a perfectly maintained condition ". Dalmier kept this formidable cruise ship for six years, covering some 12,000 km and carrying out work, including an engine re-build, to allow the car to continue providing good service. In 1966, following a reversal in fortunes (recounted in the second volume of his book "Les roues de misère"), Dalmier was forced to part with his substantial Isotta-Fraschini, and it was Albert Prost who bought it. And so, this car that was born in the 1920s, has known just three families with its definitive coachwork. A very rare occurrence. During the 1980s, Albert Prost had the car restored by the Ateliers de Restauration de Touraine, in Sorigny. It emerged with refurbished mechanical components and the magnificent coachwork repainted in cream, after a slight hesitation about the colour of the bonnet. There is an amusing anecdote about this : on display at Retromobile, a visitor passed by the car and exclaimed : " This is the car that my Grandfather built. " . Documents from the coachbuilder confirmed that it had indeed been the right choice of colours. Rarely driven and regularly maintained, this extraordinary car remains in superb condition today. It is a rare testimony to the excesses of the Roaring Twenties, before the Crash of 1929 put a halt to the extravagance. Everything about this Isotta is extravagant, although the perfectly balanced styling of the body makes it appear 'less' than it is. There is no other known example of this legendary model in France. With its continuous history, small number of owners, original engine and second body, this Isotta-Fraschini presents an opportunity that will not come again for a long time. It is for you to seize the exceptional opportunity that has arisen, for this Isotta is undoubtedly the most beautiful Isotta grand tourer, with the charismatic styling and undeniable beauty of an automotive masterpiece. "An insane bonnet, fantastic..." The book by Yves Dalmier, "Les roues de fortune", is full of anecdotes about the Isotta that he had between 1960 and 1966. Following the letter from the owner, the first contact he had with the car was a photo. His initial reactions are worth transcribing : " I took the photo in my hands, like a glass of water in the face. Surely, it was a dream ! In fact what I was looking at was a gigantic black and white cabriolet, appearing to fill every inch of the road it had stopped on. With extraordinary bicycle wings, enormous, connected to a curved running board sloping up to the front, an RR radiator grille and at the back, two huge spare wheels that stood higher than the trunk. Between the front and the back, a bonnet, just a bonnet, but an insane, fantastic bonnet. Squashed behind this was a " compartment " with half a steering wheel showing. And in the middle of this monster, right on the top, a tiny windscreen, like a fingernail stuck on the deck of a ship. These are the inadequate words that, after several years, describe the memories of this first contact. " (Extract from "Les roues de fortune, les roues de misère", by Yves Dalmier, illustrations by Jacques Liscourt, Éditions Automobilia, Monaco, 1991) Archives pictures : Prost Family collection Please note that this car will be sold without technical inspection. The engine of the car was probably upgraded at the end of the 1920s by Isotta Fraschini and corresponds to the specifications of the 8A Super Sport engine producing 160bhp. - See more at: https://artcurial.com/en/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=2400+++++354+&refno=10471007#sthash.tpJDMV3w.dpuf

Are you comparing the "Riddler Award" to PB best of show? Here is a picture of the car in 1931. I have no trouble understanding how this would be a best of show contender.

You should post a picture of your car. I assume it was a convertible conversion by Car Craft? Is the AACA not recognizing that?

My one and only experience with the Hemmings Concours they had post war Beetles in the same class with Prewar Classics. If that seems strange it was. No idea what they are doing now.

Why a double standard? The CCCA recognizes any car rebodied by a known reputable builder in period and Pebble is doing the same thing. That 7 year old Tipo-8 chassis that was used in 1931 was practically identical to the new chassis you could buy from Issota at the time.

The car was rebodied in period with lots of pictures of it at the time. I'm not sure what the problem would be? If it was rebodied in 1984 I would agree that was be an issue.

Jeff, Could you post some pictures. I believe you posted one in another thread.

There is a tiny bit of difference between someone who can work on a 35 V12 and a 53 327 Straight 8.

I was going to say 1500. Since when do non running post war 4 door sedans bring any money? A very very small audience.

All the time but they are usually 4 door sedans.

The price totally depends on the condition. If it is a nice driver with #2-3 level paint, interior and chrome then I would say not a bad deal. A number 3 car is probably about 35-45k. Needing lots of work, less. We sold a solid drivable #4 car for 25k about 10 years ago and a decent #3 car for 30k a few years before that.

The biggest difference between 53 & 54 besides the wheel cutouts is the engine. The 54 has the big 9 main bearing 359 engine while the 53 has the 7 main 327. The are indistinguishable to the eye and both have a 4 barrel carb but the 54 engine is better. Also, production in 54 was about 1/2 of 53.

Except for exterior sheet metal the Cougar and Mustang are identical. I have owned a few of each. In HS there was a group of dedicated 67/68 Cougar guys (I was a GTO guy). The Cougar guys are the only group I know where they name their cars.

I think they made 2 or 3 of the original coupes. There are at least another 2 replicas. Any build or engineering issues with the cars have been figured out and documented by the club. You can dial a Cord 810/812 in to the point where it is a great prewar car. Good power, plenty of legs and great styling. I agree on Auburn Indiana. Mid-westerners are super nice people too. The reunion (which is next weekend) is always a blast. Sadly, the Hupp/Graham factory has been liquidated so no more spending a day there.

It is his car so he can do what he wants, however a real friend would tell him he's going to do something stupid. We can argue the dimensions of what stupid means here but hard to argue 10k car + 30k worth of work = 15k car.

I think the detail work should happen in the hotel parking lot or outside the show. If you didn't stay at a hotel then you didn't travel far enough to warrant the car needing to be detailed again. I have driven plenty of cars to shows and never take the detail stuff out of the trunk. It seems pretentious.

I have never wiped a car down during a show. If it is trailered then maybe a California duster when it comes out but not on the field.

Given what that car went for - a solid 10 to 15k more than I thought it would I think your car is probably worth more than you think. The spread between unrestored and restored is about 25% of the restoration cost to go from point A to point B.

Two years ago I was under bidder at 50k for a complete disassembled Phaeton. It went for 51k I believe and needed a full restoration.

This thread feels more and more like the brass car one every minute. What other country in the world is there where the poor have cell phones, cable TV and air conditioning?

Better colors. https://www.worldwide-auctioneers.com/auctions/details.cfm?vehicleID=13&id=38

Like I said before, It is not a Concours even though they use the word. Your car would be fine there.

100k? Not if a professional shop is doing it. More like 200k plus. I see 30k worth of chrome alone.