wayne sheldon

Quite a few years ago, I had an opportunity to look over a Tatra (I don't know the model number?), from the early 1950s. I was told it was virtually identical to the late 1930s models. I have seen a couple Panhard Dynamics over the years. One If I recall correctly was in the former William Harrah collection. Those great European designs of the entire 1930s were fascinating!

It supposedly also indicates "right of way" (although those little jewels my be tough to see in the dark?). With the red jewel on the left/port side, a driver approaching from your left should see the red jewel and know to stop because you are on his right and you have the right of way. The drivers coming from your right/starboard side would have the right of way over you, and you should see their red jewel while they see your green jewel telling them to go as they have the right of way. That all did originate in maritime rules (although I never got involved in boating and actually know little about it). The 1925 Studebaker I had many years ago had the jewels in the cowl lights.

As horrible as war is, almost always a lot of businessmen make a bunch of money providing the tools for war for a short time. Then after the war, they have factories and other facilities and no more temporary market to sell to. So it was after the end of the "Great War", long since renamed World War One. In the two to three years that followed, dozens of businessmen fancied themselves to become automobile manufacturers. I am sure that with a little research, one could find a couple dozen names of automobile startup companies building "assembled" cars of mediocre design for less than four years. Some never got past a prototype or two. A few made maybe a thousand cars total. Practically all of them combined are little more than a footnote in history books. Only a very few are actually considered desirable, or really valuable. Fear of unknown orphans keeps most hobbyists away from even considering owning one of those oddities. The sad part is, that being "assembled" cars means most of the major parts are actually ones used by several other companies! Rear end, transmission, and even the engine may not be commonplace, however, hopefully not all the surviving parts were recently shipped to China? A given Continental Red Seal engine of a given series was practically the same regardless of what car it was in. While not quite the same thing, the Warner Gear T68A-1 transmission that donated the parts needed for my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan was out of a Jordan!

People have been debating and theorizing about that for more than sixty years now! I have never had one, and am not an expert on them. I know they had a number of for the time supposedly advanced features, which some people weren't ready for. However, chief among the suspected reasons was the styling and that large grill center. It was often called a "horse collar" grill due to its resemblance to the horse collars that farmers and teamsters used for draft horses a generation earlier. While there was something imposing in the appearance of that grill, I never thought it looked bad, nor was it so different from the exposed radiators thirty years earlier. About a decade later, Pontiac used a similarly centered grill protrusion on their cars, which was quickly accepted and became the identifying characteristic for the marque. The car and its overall styling was big and imposing, however, most American cars during the mid and late 1960s were large and imposing. Some people think the problem was Ford Motor Company's marketing approach. While Ford was a large, solid, and very well established company, they tried to make the Edsel into a "new" and separate entity. New dealerships were established, and they began to compete for sales against themselves! That created a level of distrust to some longtime automobile customers. The final two years for Edsel, they toned down the styling. Whether that was the real issue or not, it was basically too late to save the new car-line. The Edsel had been, and became synonymous with, an utter failure. The new dealerships had invested great amounts of money, and suddenly had no product to sell. Unable to get franchises for American built automobiles, many of those new dealerships went to selling European automobiles! Which in turn created greater competition for American automobile manufacturers. The long history of the automobile, and its cultural connections is fascinating. Studebaker, during the 1940s and 1950s, was quite different than most other American automobiles. Their styling was nearly always during those years about a decade ahead of any others. While most of Detroit was building the big imposing automobiles, many with big tailfins and other imposing features, Studebaker was building stylish smaller and more economical cars. Studebaker did have a niche and very loyal following which helped their survival for awhile. But Studebaker's differences and some level of success makes one wonder about how much of a role styling does play in the failure of the Edsel? But the demise of Studebaker is another subject and debate for another day and thread.

Oh great. Now my hat won't fit. Seriously though Terry H, thank you so very much for the kind words. I am just very passionate about so many things, and history, sociology and the changes that went hand in hand with the changing technologies are among my top interests. Being so passionate about these things makes me want to share what I have spent a lifetime trying to learn. Again, Thank You!

American automobile buyers have always been fussy that way. Hence the short run of that particular series of 1929 Buicks. Something as minor as a slight bulge below the beltline chased away the buying public, causing Buick to redesign the series to the previous more straight sides. Ford's Edsel in the 1950s was another example of American buyer's reluctance to some styling changes. The Edsel was a very good car, ahead of its time in many ways, but most Americans simply would not accept it. The Chrysler's "Airflow" is another well known automobile well ahead of its time that most people that could even afford one would not buy one. While my primary interests in historic automobiles has always been in earlier automobiles (1900 through the mid 1920s), I have always been attracted to the European automobiles of the 1930s with their sleek designs. So many incredible marques with aerodynamic designs that just exude elegance!

Nice! The Ajax may be somewhat rare? But at least it isn't one of the three I have seen show up repeatedly over the past eight years! I don't care for the color, however, otherwise it looks like a pretty nice car at a fair price!

My thought exactly! Funny how often when a car doesn't match up to what a person has been told, it becomes a "prototype" or "preproduction" car? Don't they ever think that maybe someone fifty years ago guessed wrong?

A lot of people in the past half century have put water pumps on model Ts for no reason other than they didn't believe it could work well that way. Many people even when the cars were new, had the same doubt, and like snake oil would buy them because some huckster told them to. Modern cars use them mostly because the modern engines produce a lot more horsepower, and rev at much higher speeds. Manufacturers figure that force cooling via water pump and thermostat is cheaper than a radiator large enough to radiate as much heat as the modern engine produces. Thermal syphon is an amazing concept. No thermostat is required. The harder you push the car, the faster you go, the more heat the engine produces, and the faster the water flows! If everything is working properly, the engine automatically runs up close to optimum operating temperature regardless of weather or speed (except not of course below freezing when a winter-front is required). Where a water pump "sometimes" helps a little bit, is if the radiator has aged badly, and no longer conducts heat out of the water quickly enough. Even then any help from adding a water pump is minimal at best. Water pumps often push the water too fast causing the water to push out the overflow tube, in turn causing the water level to get too low and result in boiling over. Either that, or under certain conditions of speed and weather, the water pumps will restrict the flow to slower than the thermal syphon would do and again can cause overheating of the engine. Water pumps were very popular accessories late in the model T era, especially during the 1930s. Radiators were getting older, corrosion was reducing their efficiency on the outside while years of dirty water was reducing their efficiency on the inside. A lot of people fell for the salesman's talk of the magic cure of a water pump. So, original era water pumps are quite common today. They usually, even then, didn't really help much.

Often, that middle area had the car's marque name in it. I don't know if this one is a marque factory offering or just after-market. Either way, a sheet metal piece could be made using simple tools to put behind the glass, or milk glass could be painted on the inside for a good effect. I have seen several like that where people made them one way or the other. Great looking lamp!

Thank you Xander W. Due to the the many fond memories I have from my "too modern" Reo so many years ago, I do enjoy seeing Reos from that era. This one is the smaller version Flying Cloud, sometimes called the "Mate" as apposed to the Flying Cloud Master I had. The Mate was also a fine car, comparable to the smaller Buick of the time.

Thank you sebastienbuick for so many wonderful photos of truly interesting automobiles! I of course really enjoy seeing the earlier prewar cars. The several photos of late 1920s or early 1930s delivery trucks near the beginning of this thread were particularly interesting. They got me to wondering what such commercial vehicles were usually called in France? Some of the global English speaking world call a "truck" (the American word) a "lorry" in much of the rest of the English speaking world. Most Americans are not familiar with the term "lorry", however after so many postings on forums from English speaking countries around the world the term has become almost natural to me. So now I find myself wondering what such vehicles would be called in France? Also, about what year would the "202" and "302" Peugeot automobiles have been? I really like the look of those. And the similarity in look of the green Simca is interesting to me. Any relation? The 1929 Buick is an unusual model, not often seen even here in America. When that particular style first hit the market early for 1929 (well before the stock market crash), it wasn't accepted by most of the automobile buying public. The slight bulge below the beltline just didn't look right to many people, and several disparaging remarks became common for them. By mid 1929, Buick went back to the more straight earlier style which remained through 1932 when they and most of the American automobile companies began more streamlined styling overall (a bit behind some of European styling). Again, from me along with many others here, Thank You so much for sharing the collector automobile hobby with us a half a world away! It is so wonderful for us to see it. (As well as the beautiful architecture!)

I am about ninety-eight percent certain I know that car! It has been almost forty-five years since I have seen it, but it belonged to a very good friend of mine. A 1925 Stearns Knight oval window brougham is what they called it. I would love to see more photos of the car, to be sure it is the same one. The one I knew had an incredibly beautiful interior, I believe it was original. Overall, the car had had a good quality cosmetic restoration outside, but like most, had several minor, or not so minor, issues. The visor needed repair when he bought it, and the front bumper was too small. I had a Studebaker with a slightly wider but otherwise identical BiFlex bumper on it, so we traded bumpers which was an improvement for both cars. He had the bumper he got from me re-plated in nickel. However, the plating shop LOST the clamp medallions for it! I had an almost identical BiFlex bumper that was badly bent (apparent collision damage), but the clamp/medallions were in good condition. So I gave him those clamp, medallions to replace the ones the plater had lost. I still have the rest of the bent bumper in my junk pile! I figure if I want to use it on a lesser car, I could easily make good clamps and straighten the bumper. But I have never had an appropriate car that I wanted a bumper for, so there it sits buried in my junk pile. The engine had some issues common to Knight engines, and my friend had it rebuilt by another mutual friend that had previously rebuilt a couple other Knight engines. Once he was done with the engine, there were no more problems from the engine as long as my friend had it, and he drove it quite a bit after that. I rode in it a number of times. Great riding car, but low geared then. If it had an overdrive or higher gear ratio installed? It would be a great car for nickel era. It is one of about a dozen cars I have known in the past that I occasionally search for on the web, hoping to see a photo of it. I have seen photos of a few other Stearns Knight oval window broughams, but all different years or colors, and usually slightly different body details. I hope it is the same one. It is always nice to see memorable cars decades later, still in nice shape.

I just have to say, I really like what m-mman said! He really explained well the era perception of leather versus "imitation" leather versus cloth for automobile interiors. Traveling businessmen and salesmen spent a lot of time in their business cars going from place to place to show their offerings. Many thousands of miles were put on those cars with boxes, usually made of wood with sharp corners, sitting on the seats. People in those days had not yet become so used to comfort that they had to have a plush soft cloth seat for themselves (although the plush comfortable automobiles of that era went a long way to further that desire for constant comfort). The more durable interiors saved money and improved profitability for businessmen on the move. I think the most comfortable seats I have ever sat upon were the properly redone or original automobile interiors of enclosed cars from the 1920s! One of the other "not mine" cars shared has been both criticized and defended for having modern seats replacing the original front seats. Comments defending the replacement made remarks to the effect of greater comfort for the people in the car. My immediate reaction to myself was "have you ever sat on the correct seats of that era?" I should add, that in the case of that particular car, the front passenger seat was a folding jump seat, and therefore the comfort comment may be appropriate for that one seat. However, I have personally sat in the driver's seat of a couple nearly identical cars! NO modern era automobile I have ever sat in comes close to the comfort of that seat! The rear seat is even nicer.

My model T makes that easy! They have a lever conveniently located just below the steering wheel.

I believe all Buick enclosed body styles used mohair for the interiors. 1928, most sedans had a printed pattern on the mohair which I haven't seen in a restoration ever. However, there are quite a few Buicks that year with very nice original interiors. My dad had a 1928 Buick Master seven passenger sedan in poor condition a long time ago. He never did anything with it, and the interior was not in good condition, but the pattern was still very obvious. He also had a 1928 standard sedan in even worse condition (they came as a set) which also had a similar pattern. Since then I have seen several 1928 Buicks with very nice original interiors. All with that pattern in the mohair. I do not know how many other years had the patterned upholstery, earlier or later I just don't know. I have seen a few franklin automobiles with leather interiors, and Dodge offered "business" coupes and sedans with imitation leather (imitation nauga?) through most of the 1920s. I have seen more than a dozen Dodges with more or less intact original imitation leather interiors. A surprising number of high end Classics in the 1920s and early 1930s did offer the option, however it appears to have been done rarely. Not a whole lot of other manufacturers seemed to offer that option on enclosed cars. And if they did, it was mostly just the business coupes. Trucks of course are another matter. Most of them were imitation leather for whatever little upholstery they had.

I believe you are half right! They are folded forward cradled next to the folded top as you want them. If mounted upside down, they fold out to the rear away from the top so that you can hit your face on the hinge when climbing into the rumble seat! Even fold landau irons (or even dummy irons for non-folding tops) have a right, and a left, an up, and a down. There are four possible ways to mount them (not counting the more obvious inside out which if you added that make eight possible ways to mount them?), and only one way is the right way! If I am not being dyslexic, I believe they are on the wrong sides. You are right in that the arc is the wrong way. Good eye!

The factory offered MIL roadsters had the same problem, maybe not quite as badly, some years the rear body went farther past the frame than other years. I didn't realize New Zealand didn't have snakes? Nearby Australia I hear has plenty to spare? Other than Antarctica, I thought Ireland was the only place with no snakes.

I am curious about why compare the Nash to a Packard? While the top of the line Nash might be considered comparable to the bottom of the line Packard six, the eight cylinder Packard is generally perceived as more of a luxury car. Drivability of the top of the line Nash might be very similar to the Packard Eight, however reasons for ownership are more about perceptions and the name. Comparing Nash and Buick is more apples to apples, as both are high side of the middle range automobile markets. Even the standard eight in a Packard is a step up.

Looks like a 1928 engine? Not necessarily a bad thing.

It was called the "New Day" model Jewett in 1926 and became the "New Day" Paige for 1927. It was also either a 6-40 or 6-45 as the 1927 Paige. I have the 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan in my garage. As Paige Detroit wound down their final year, they rebadged the New Day Jewett as the small model Paige. The crossover cars had the Paige name on the radiator, but Jewett badging on all other nameplates, engine and body. The crossovers also had an unusual hubcap with a fancy "P" more like something Peerless might have used. Years ago, there was another Paige 6-45 sedan in my family that had the earlier crossover badging and hubcaps, along with those steel disc wheels. Unfortunately, I was unable to get it when the other family member decided to sell it. It was in slightly better original condition than mine, and I would have liked to have had it. Mine is a little later in the crossover, and has Paige engine and body badging, although the engine number plate had been changed apparently at the factory from the original Jewett one which was made of brass, to the Paige version which was made of aluminum. A piece of the brass engine plate was still attached to the engine. Mine also has the genuine Paige script "P" hubcaps. In the OP photo, I can tell the hubcap is not the Paige script "P" by its general size and shape. However, in the blur, I cannot tell for certain if it is the earlier Jewett script "J" or the interim fancy "P"? I almost want to say I think it is the interim "P"? But I just cannot be sure. One detail in the OP photo that pretty much clinches Paige or Jewett is that the body (in spite of black and white photography) is clearly a three color body. Paige and Jewett were ahead of the curve on fancier colors for their cars in 1926 and 1927. Nearly all their cars those two years were three color bodies, with black upper body on enclosed styles above the upper beltline, and two contrasting colors separated by the lower beltline. They also had pinstriping in an additional color, and some bodies got another additional color around the window reveals. All cars had black fenders and side aprons. Nice little car!

Be careful Jack B! Model Ts are quite addictive. Once you get past the proletariat ubiquitousness and try one? They really are the most fun per mile and for the dollar than any other antique automobile. I have had a Pierce Arrow, a couple nice pre1930 Studebakers, another rarely seen horseless era touring car, driven friend's Lincolns and numerous other fine cars. But even when I had some of the best cars I ever owned or drove, if I didn't also have a model T, I felt I was missing something valuable. I decided over thirty years ago, I had to have another one, and that I never wanted to not have at least one ever again.

We want to welcome you to one of the best forums on the web for one of the best and most rewarding hobbies ever! Antique automobiles have an almost magical way of connecting their caretakers with history in general, and then making one's own personal history and family more real and interesting. Making those things more real and personal gives people greater understandings of the past and how people lived, then other cultures as well. There are a lot of misconceptions out on social media. The "touring sedan" thing is one of them. While there were a lot of cars that were called "touring sedan", the combined term did not become common in any way before the mid to late 1930s, and then only on specific automobiles. To get proper answers to your questions, we need to know what you actually have?

Too modern for me to be really interested, but I just had to look at the actual ad. Sad. Looks like it might have been a nice car before they parked it in a field for a couple decades?

Antique automobile emblems like these are often highly collectible. Often to the detriment of owners of cars that need them. That said, values individually vary from only a couple dollars for some, others might be in the hundreds for a single emblem. It takes a serious collector that knows that market to give decent advice on values. Beyond that, condition has a major effect on the value. Nice undamaged pieces are worth much more than ones in poor to fair condition. The "Star" automobile one (the white and gold star inside the blue and white circle) is a good example of one that would be worth much more if the porcelain in it was not broken. Those are not rare, but really nice ones are tough to find. Your "International" (1920, maybe early 1930s truck) might be in the same boat. The "Flying Cloud" one is interesting to me. It was a series of Reo automobiles from about 1927 to about 1934. My first real antique automobile over fifty years ago was a 1929 Reo Flying Cloud master series. That emblem I have never seen before. If it is from a Reo automobile, it would likely be from the early 1930s, or it could be something different? The "Paige" one is also of interest to me. Its condition looks to be fair to probably good if it was cleaned up a bit. Paige ceased production in 1927 when the Graham brothers took over the company. I am not sure what all years that one may be appropriate for, however it would be the final few years. It looks like the one on my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan (mine appears to be in better condition). I believe yours might be good for back to about 1925? Frankly, I don't know how much that one would be worth? The last one I saw for sale I was told went for about a hundred dollars. Whether that was a fluke or high or low, I won't claim to know. But I cannot at this time buy anything like that unless I really need it. The LaS is for a LaSalle, a companion car to Cadillac, probably late 1930s. No idea of value. The Fisher Body tags are likely not worth much. Most of the rest of them I have little to no idea what they may be worth.