Bud Tierney

pgb123---sorry to hear the CEs also have the dodgy oil pump---do you know if the Gardner CFs have the potmetal pump??? w What've the Gardner owners done about it??? The oldihc site should still have some info re' their new-pump work, and a Fageol tractor with a CT was redone with another pump in Vancouver, WA. I know I've got notes somewhere, but... If there's a specific pump used for replacement I''ll make a note (and an effort to get this info together)......

This has nothing to do with your oil leak; just a heads-up--- If you should take your engine down look at the oil pump carefully---the CT, a sister engine, often (always?) uses a potmetal type pump that is often cracked and expanded in place, coming out in pieces (workarounds/other pumps've been fitted by other owners)... The series seems to run CE, CF, CH, CT and C4, C4W, CUWM; I believe a CF owner (Auburn) advised his pump was cast iron. It's possible the potmetal pump may've been limited to the /some CTs..

Wherever they were built, they were what were then considered "compact" cars, models smaller than "standard" size models. so while the man in the pic looks substantial he needn'tv'e been outstandingly large... Had one of these...sweet little cars; liked the vaguely Buck Rogerish styling...there were much worse examples in those days of Freudian "bumper guards" and tail fins...

Since he's not posted any additional info since October I assume he's solved his problem... A 1917 ring catalog lists twenty Cont;l 6s in 5 different bores, and that's probably not a complete list......

In line with Terry's comment above ("why make it more complex"), let us know which Cont'l you have as it may've been one of their more popular engines...assuming, of course, you're certain it is a Cont'l... If you don't know the Cont'l designation, or aren't even sure it is a Cont'l, (no tag or out of one of the cars that claimed to use "own" produced engine) post what info you have---b/s, what out of and/or presently in, stamped/embossed numbers/letters etc)... It's free; what've you got to lose, unless you just want to rig something up to see if it'll work for the fun of it...

Have had heater core leaking for several years on 2000 Saturn wagon... Fortunately minor enough only leaked about 2 gal a year when started to leak (1 gal AF+1gal water mixture) so just lived with it. As time passed impurities in water/coolant are gradually stopping leak with no noticeable effect on cooling...keeping my fingers crossed core won't go BLOOEY before begins to overheat or rest of car goes... Thought about stop leak but wasn't sure how well (or badly) it might work with no radiator cap (fill thru overflow tank)...

The C600 seems to be an interesting engine, at least per my few sources... The C400, listed as 33/8x4, was apparently continued (or resurrected/upgraded?) as the C4143 (automotive) and PC143 (power unit), as it's lumped in with those and several others as taking one set of gasketc (41 McCord)...the C600 was apparently, not, standing alone with its own set of gaskets therein... The C400 made it into several other makes while, again, the C600 fared poorer, at least as far as my parts catalogs show... Stewart truck models 60A and 60H , both 3/4Ton, are listed with the C600; no Stewart Club shows up, but they were a successful builder of the period... Gray Marine models Phantom Light S1x, 6-51 and 6-62 are listed using the C600 in the 41 McCord; however, a 63 McCord lists the Phantom Light Six with an F6209, the 6-51 with the F209 (Ind'l version), and the 6-62 was not listed... Per a 36 catalog the C600 seems to have its own pistons; catalogs seem confused on valves. Cont'l bearings must be a mess, as surprisingly few are listed in my catalogs, and not the C600...

Thxx for the heads-up; will put them on my list...let me know if product helpful...

Final before over and out---Various 1929 and later catalogs no mention of 12M/14M... In my catalogs first appears in June 32 King Prod catalog (poor on engine ID)... Both May 36 King and 44 Sealed Power list among Cont'ls, but neither show any listing under the various makes covered listings... Will not post unless something new shows up... Too many questions...too little time...

Actually, Dodge may be an outlier in Cont'ls engine designation being known... or is it?? We have no idea how/where Victor got the 12M/14M ID...Dodge?...Cont'l?...the ubiquitous "informed source"?... Everyone knows Cont'l provided Graham engines (short blocks?--Graham used their own head?) but none of my catalogs mention any Cont'l ID for them, altho there must've been an internally used ID... Without a reliable list of m'f'rs that Cont'l sold to, often (like Graham) well known among the industry of the time, but possibly lost now, we have no real answer... My list of prewar makes cars/trucks/a few buses using Cont'ls, mostly from published catalog listings and trade journals, is probably over 400 now, and assuredly incomplete., given those who pretended to build the whole car in-house..... Fun for us, but leaving loose ends...

(1) no 5489 in Cont'l sections 30 or 41 McCord... (2) no luck so far on any other 12M/14M listings... (3) what's with press release in 1927 Brisbane Courier re' new Dodge Senior imported with 31/4x41/2 223 CID with SEVEN mains??..."...chosen by Dodge Engineers.." (chosen, not designed?? ).. Sorry, never learned to link, should come up under trove.nla.gov.au/newspapers/dodge senior...nice piece with much car/engine desc...different than domestic version?? (just idle curiosity)...

Try this again... (1) 5198 (I assume you meant 5198) also shows for some Graham Bros trks 1928 ""...Bus 2Ton...Dodge Senior..." no parts # listed...otherwise agrees (2) The 38 Vic just lists one head gasket for for both the 31/4 and 33/8 Senior engines (not unusual---Cont'l has several other similar)... (3) Sorry, C15 is misprint for 15C, a 33/8x45/8 per 38 Vic.. (4) 8R was popular engine (apparently upgrade of 7R as several listings "...7R-8R...". Old partial list some 30+ cars/trks---Auburn, Case (tractor co) car, Elcar, Henney hearses, Moon and Velie all have clubs, maybe get pix or desc 8R to compare with Senior???...Cont'l got good coverage in trade journals, maybe desc/pix there to compare?? (5) lots of fun, but realistically, on sober reflection, one would expect, with the extensive, voluminous writings on Dodge, this question was settled long ago??? No answers from Clubs and.or the various and numerous CCpyn/Dodge/Mopar websites??? (6) Nothing in book re' ID systems?? Began with simple letters A etc...in 1916 using the 6C type...by 1938 was using F4140 type (F engine, 4cyl, 140 CID) etc... (7) Cont'l had more engine IDs than Carter had Little Liver Pills...started engine list , mostly from my catalogs...20+ notebook paper pages, and my catalogs only trucks/cars, a little tractor/ag, avery little marine orheavy eqpmt/ind'l, latest 1986... ((8) "we" ?? found 8R under Senior? (I'll assume it was the collegial 'we')... (9) should we consider taking this to direct email?? We're really cluttering up the forum here...

Geez.. system sent my whole reply off into the aether somewhere...will try again later...

(1) I assume Cont'l must've

Your McCord page pictured is the format used in my 1928-40 B-1 (per cover) issue....but my Fargo listing has almost 40 entries...the Farr listing seems the same...in mine Farr is followed by Fay & Bowen with only 4 entries at the bottom of page 98; page 99 is a whole page of Federal listings... I'd meant to mention the Cont'l book...I ran across a copy in a bookstore, but was disappointed in that it didn't seem to include a comprehensive list of when engines introduced or individual production info, but it may well have mention of the Dodge contract/s and'm sure it contains a wealth of Cont'l history...... there's a ready market for them in case it disappoints re' Dodge...

Here's an odd bit... None of my three early gasket catalogs (30McC. 38 Vic, 41 McC, each 300+ pgs) show any 12M/14M in their Cont'l motor sections---nor does 12M/14M appear in Cont'l lists in other 1929, 30, 33 and 34 catalogs---understandable if 12M/14M sold solely to Dodge... BUT---1932 King Prod DOES show 12M/14M in the Cont'l engine section, as if motor/s used by trade, and people'd be looking for parts under the Cont'l designation rather than looking under Dodge...listings carried into 36 and 1940 editions ..' I think I'll eyeball some of the period catalogs to see if 12M/14M appear under any other makes...

That 32 King bus and truck list GRAHAM BROS 31/4 engine---1928 OD, ODR, ODX, Yd, TDR, TDX, Ed, EDR, EDX 2T, JD, YD bus 33/8 engine---1928 Merchants Express SE, Commercial DE: BE, IE 11/4T; ME, LE 13/4T; OE, TE 2T; GE,HE, RE 3T; Achool bus 12-21 pass; JE, JEB, JER, JEX, YE, YEX bus, DODGE no listings for the 31/4 engine 33/8 engine---1929-31 SE, SEW 1/2Ton; DE, DEF,DEW 3/4T; EE, LEF, BEW, IE, IEF, IEW 11/4T; ME, MER, MEW, LE, LER, LEW 13/4T; ED, EDR, EDX, OE, OER, OEX, TE, TER, TEX, 2T; GE, GES, GEX, HE, HES, HEX, RE, RES, REX 3T; DA1 3/4-11/2T; DB1 2-3T; F35, F36 11/2T; JE, JEB, JER, JEX, YE, YEX bus.. Will recheck those earlier catalogs for Graham Bros trucks...

1930 Mann Precision Piston Pins catalog (title page gone) lists Dodge Senior 6 1927 with "Cont'l Spec" 31/4 bore---pin # matches Cont'l listing for 11E, 12E, 15E Senior, Vict, Std 28-29 with "Cont'l" 33/8... Truck 1927-28 2Ton with Cont'l Srec" 31/4.....pin # for the 33/8 matches Cont'l listing fo 12K, 15C, 16C, 18E....the 12K is an 8, illustrating that just because a part interchangeable doesn't mean that engine used by Dodge... .A 1930 Jadson valve catalog didn't show any connection... 1930 Babbitted Rods catalog no connection... June 1932 King Quality Products Co, St Louis, catalog more interesting... Senior 6 1927 to Feb 1928 31/4 Senior 6 after Feb 28-30, Vict 6 130, Std 6 140, 141, DA 1928-30. 33/8.. Trucks--lists some 40+ models, 1928-31, from 1/2 to 3 Ton with the 33/8 engine...in truck section notes "for prices see Dodge"... The piston # for the 31/4 matches Cont'l 10E, 12E, 15E, 22A and an A16 , which' last is probably a misprint... The piston number of the 33/8 matches some 15 or so Cont'ls, only some listed above. I think---THINK--the "Special" indicates an engine made for one user, not intended to be offered to the trade... The 30 NcCord and other covers may be buried upstairs---I have a 41 McCord B-! that refers back to an earlier "Guide A", but there're no such reference to any earlier catalog in the 1930.....

Will try to feed finding in chron order of catalogs... The 29 is Accuralite Company, Muskegon, Mich, Nov 1929 (pistons, quoted above-)--next is 1930 McCord gaskets (title page gone, but my notes refer to it as 1930)...lists Dodge 6 (pass) model Senior 1927 31/4x41/2 1928-30 33/8x41/2 (Trk) Graham Bros Bodge Bros 2-3 Ton (Bus) JEB, JEX...this lists two head gaskets : 1927 and early 28 and late 28-30...somewhere later is an engine change in Feb 28 listing engine #, but lost in scribbling, will show up again... The Cont'l section in that catalog has no matching head gasket number and no listing for 12M/14M, which MIGHT mean engine was not offered to general trade...(8R is listed with different head gasket)... I assume you'll eventually want copies of those applicable for your records; I have no scanner, and after a meltdown my set transmits pix in MB instead of KB, but I will fiddle with it...eventually...

(1) I hate myself when I get into one of these quagmires... (2) I don't follow mainlines, so I know nothing about Dodge etc production,; at my age, you'll forgive me for not wanting to know... (3) Replacement parts catalogs, which I use for engine IDs, are weak reeds to lean on---errors, misprints, published too early to catch production changes (factory inability to provide enough or any of originally stated engine, orig eng found unsuitable or cheaper better engine suddenly available, ad nauseum)...yet containing reams of info, so shouldn't be ignored... (4) Agree that a particular engine issued under various designation, probably with tweaks or even user code letter(??)... (5) Engines found in cars/trucks don't match catalog listings often enough to think maybe if Cont'l contracted to provide engine X and something happened to prod or they could provide engine XX variation more profitably they weren't above swapping them...on the other hand, variations might've been cheaper/more available, and a drop-in fit, when re-power needed, ad nauseum... (6) As said, you have my sympathy... All that being said, I will go thru my period catalogs to see what other confusions/complexities they show, which they will... NOTE: If not already known, the period trade journals (The Automobile, The Motor Truck etc) published annual specs/price lists, many of which include wheelbases, tonnage, b/s, HP etc...hathitrust has many to 1922-23 on full vfew, but later are limited view, which I'm not familiar with. They might have your statistical issues......

Just read your above...8R??? Did find and attempted to read thru your earlier post under Dodge Trucks, but the more I read the less I knew.; not unusual in my own researching... So---I have a 38 Victor gasket catalog that, in a Cont'l engine index section, shows: AD. (Dodge Senior)---had gskt #668---pg 105 (Dodge Section) 12M, 14M (Dodge) same gasket, same page # 8R is listed with several other engines as "various", with gasket #350, pg 86 (Cont'l section). I did find a page in my notes listing 8R makes using, and while Dodge was not there that page failed to list which of my replacement parts catalogs I reviewed. so may've been a more cursory search ... In th Dodge section is: Dodge Bros entry: (Pass) 6cyl. 1927-28. Senior 6. 31/4x41/2; (note semicolon) 1929-30. 33/8x41/2. (Continental 12M) (Truck) Models ED-OD-TD-GE-HE-OE-RE-TE 2-3Ton 1927-31 (Bus) Models JD-YD-JE-YE-880-881 1927-31 A 1936 catalog listing Cont'l bores/stroke does show the 8R as 33/8x31/2....both the 12M and 14M are listed ass both 31/4x41/2 AND 33/8x341/2, with no engine # for a change, which could mean they were built simultaneously (???), but... That 36 catalog , under Cont'l valves, lists "12M to eng #11889, 14M" on one line; 12M after #11889 on the next line---looks like springs differ...12M,14M take same mains, no rods shown (poured?)..8R has different bearings incl rods (inserted?0) My apologies if you've already gone thrt this, or if it complicates things... .ADDITION---OH,NO--No!--stupidly pulled a 29 piston catalog---this lists Dodge Senior 27-28 with code Acre, which is Cont'l 10E, 12E, 15E 6cyl 31/4 bore...AND Sr, Std., Vic, no yrs listed, code Affray, which is Cont'l 12N, 15U, 11E and 16C 6cyl 33/8 bore... This begins to look like a quagmire.. I've never understood Cont'ls engine ID system; it's not unusual for one set of gaskets to cover two to fifteen or so engine designations, which probably meana they issued the same engine with some minor or major twaeks... With sympathy, Bud

There are also the profe$$ional obsolete/rare parts dealers---people/firms that specialize in acquiring and reselling rare/obsolete parts, or fabricating NLA (no linger available thru normal sources) parts/assemblies...examples are Monte's Eqpmt fot Cont'l engines, Olsons and Gasketstogo for gaskets, ad nauseum...I'm only personally aware of dealers in engine parts and electrical, but i assume others exist for axles, steering etc...I once kept a list myself. truck related, just out of curiosity (sadly dated now) which ran to several notebook paper pages... You'll find that reports of their products indicate some are more expensive than others, but that's the sellers prerogative---if the price is too high, look elsewhere.. For reference/beginners, some are listed under Vendors and Restoration Services section of justoldtrucks, and there's always Google.....I assume other lists exist....

If you haven't already, you might try Garrad (Gerry/Jerry/Gerald) Moon at Montes Eqpmt, NW of Chicago. obsolete Cont'l parts dealer---don't recall anyone mentioning whether or not they have manuals... The 15H is listed in a 1930 gasket catalog and a 38 gasket catalog as truck incl fire truck/bus....the series, taking the same set of gaskets, seems to be 14H-15H-16H-28H- P96 (the P96 is a free standing power unit version of one of them)... garradmoon@montes@flash.net or montesequipment.com. If a specific manual was not issued for the 15H they may be able to advise which manual covers the "series"...( there're presently 400+ on EBay)... With sympathy, Bud

Cameron offered its engines to the trade; I remember seeing various ads in thi trade journals, but I have no real information re' how much penetration they acquired... Do have notes that they got engines, 4s, into the Liberty Light Car (Light Cars were a semi-category between CycleCars during their craze and "normal" size (??) cars---not familiar with actual category specs, if any). Std Cat says both very low prod. Don't know anything about their aircraft and marine engines...

Oh, yes, remember those very fondly, they did put out lovely heat, at least the one I personally remember did... Never had one myself, they were considered an upscale accessory, reportedly far more efficient than most small car OE heaters and most low cost aftermarket heaters, at least those in the old jalopies we drove... Don't recall the friend who had one voicing any complaints; they were generally well spoken of. I asssume they died out when OE heaters became more efficient......