1912Staver

With race cars it does not seem to effect value nearly as much as with road cars. { as long as no one died } Major shunts just seem to come with the territory when dealing with vintage racers. It's nice to have one that isn't a ground up { chassis plate up } rebuild , but if you are actually going to use it on the track chances are quite a bit of the car is going to be much more recently fabricated than the original build date anyway. But I get the impression a driver death does effect things to some degree .

Interesting to look at 917 factory information and see just how many were written off or used as parts by Porsche themselves. Quite a few as I recall.

Yes, maok has it correct. Here in Canada I think the above time brackets are thought of as a bit more correct than just the general heading " antique ". Except Veteran has fallen by the wayside in favor of " Brass Era " 1915 or earlier. With " Vintage " starting in 1916 rather than 1918 , up to 1930. The English also use the term " Edwardian " to some degree. Something that has not crossed the Atlantic as far as I know.

A real SS ?

That's true to a point. Road car Ferrari owners were not on Enzo's " good friends " list. The competition cars were quite another thing. Where Enzo's heart truly was.

If the Bug in question was a Type 57 SC or similar the prices would probably be quite similar. Brescia's are very nice cars, but far from the most treasured Bugatti's.

A genuine competition Ferrari for under two million ? Sounds like a amazing deal. What's that you say... it needs a bit of work. Still at that price how can you go wrong ? Actually to a certain , small , select group of people this is probably looked at as a " decent " deal. To put it in context if this was a similar situation { same condition, 100% genuine car , no quibble serial tag etc } Lotus 23 for say $15,000 - $20,000 I would be trying my best to raise the cash. Some people have deep enough pockets to dream about $4 million racing Ferrari's rather than $100,000 Lotus sports racers like the rest of us are limited to.

As long as the price stays reasonable, what's not to like. A great looking car in my opinion. Get a rough model 80 as a parts car and take it from there. I know Ed knows PA's inside out, but fewer and fewer of us these days can afford a senior series Pierce. And much less one with a attractive body style. Just renovate not "restore ". Then enjoy it for the next 20 years. Up here in the wilds of Canada this model 81 would pass for a really special car to most old car guys I know. I can count on one hand the number of PA's in use in Western Canada these days. Every one regardless of model or body style is looked at as a 4 star { at least } car around here.

Any demand for Claudel Hobson ? I think the one I have is automotive rather than aircraft. They were used on some of the better British sports machines just after the first WW. Not sure if mine was sold as a upgrade / replacement for a domestic car, or was O.E.M. off a British car that made its way to North America. Not sure where it is at the moment. Things are a big jumble after my recent move.

I have done just that for many years, { almost 50 years of longer trips in down at the heels British sports cars } including a number of Vancouver B.C. to California Vintage racing events , but usually in something like a 40 + year old MGA rather than a pre 1925 car. Changed a head gasket at my camp site at Laguna Seca during the historics one year. Too much heat and higher speed driving near Gilroy on the 101. But for that car I could still buy a headset at the local parts store { same engine as a MGB , more or less } . It was after all only 40 or so years old at the time. Changed a 1/2 shaft U joint on a GT6 at the side of the Highway in Eastern Washington, once again a common part from a small town parts store got us rolling again. But if you need anything on a 100 or so year old car , 1000 miles away from home you are going to be in a bit of a fix. At least on a club tour there is generally a trouble truck to get you back to your tow vehicle and trailer. Anyway I get your point. But I still think the future is cloudy for a good many pre war cars. Not high dollar machines, mostly the non - mainstream { read non - Ford } average and lower end { 40 - 45 M.P.H. comfort range } cars. Break a ring and pinion or take out a babbit rod bearing and crank and the repair will be a very good chunk of what the machine is worth. May just get brought home and pushed to the back of the garage. It seems that with each passing year fewer and fewer people have the space , skill, time and $ to restore or maintain their own car . Daily driver or vintage. P.S., you have some very nice Cole's. Just way beyond my pocket.

I guess we agree to disagree. To me the club situation is very important for the use of early cars. Unless an individual is quite wealthy and can buy in lots of paid expertise, then learning from more experenced early car people is one of the best ways to learn about early machines. And a early car focused club cuts to the chase. It's a very steep learning curve once you get involved with say pre 1925 cars. Similar in concept, but so very different from post 1925 cars. Some can and do learn things the hard way...on their own. Our friend J.V. Puleo leaves most of us in awe of his take the bull by the horns and just solve the problem abilities. But many run up against seemingly impossible roadblocks and give up on early cars, or even hobby cars altogether. Not to mention networking with others for parts re- production. And the whole tour situation. Other than touring with a group { usually club based events } or trailering to a show , just what does one do with a 1918 or so Buick , Cole, Cadillac or anything else in the pre 1925 catagory ? The odd jaunt to a local park or very close cars and coffee ? It takes more than acouple of 15 mile drives a Summer to work the bugs out of a pre 1925 car. 100 mile plus tours with club support seem to me to be the only practical way for most of us to get to " know thy beast ". Once the clubs wither away, early cars become for the most part dusty relics at the far inside of the garage. In my humble opinion of course. I guess all your friends have the extra drive , ambition and resources to go it on their own. I am just a very average person with a strong Brass Era bug. Doing it all on my own just doesn't seem possible in my case.

They do look somewhat like the early model Russell.

I think pre war cars in general may be entering a death spiral. Not the better Brass cars, or the better true Classics { if you are over 15 years old and you have have to ask , you will probably never know }. But the vast majority of bread and butter , pre war cars. I am only going by the membership in my local early car Vintage Car Club chapter, but it's looking very " gray " , and the membership seems to dwindle with each passing year. A few under 40 but very few. And no where enough new people of any age to grow the membership. Almost all those earlier cars are going to need new owners / caretakers over the next 20 years or so. I just don't see nearly enough people born in the 1970's or later getting interested enough to take over ownership of the existing stock of pre war cars.

Ed and his champagne tastes! In my books the " best " Vertical 8 is a early Robin's body {series AA or BB }, boat tail speedster. Simple things just have a certain attraction . DV 32 engines are a delight , but the later body's seem too " fancy " to my eye.

Personally I kind of like American Racing 5 spokes. in 14" or 15" at the most. It is the modern version in 16" or larger diameters that rub me the wrong way. Not much of a fan of Shelby 10 spokes either, 65 and 66 GT 350's had American Racing 5 spokes didn't they ? Or was it just the GT350 R's ?

As far as I know there are only a small handfull of known survivors { possibly as few as 3 or 4 }. I have the front 1/2 of the body for the 4 cyl version { touring car }. All aluminium castings. What a way to make a body. Only 2 or 3 of those ones known as well. Just more junk to move but I can't bring myself to scrap it. A interest in Pre war stuff is a disease.

I agree with English Ford. What model exactly { the rear end } is beyond my knowledge.

Wheel hubs and hood length / shape identify the Marmon 48. The hubs in particular. I know of no other car that had hubs like this. Body looks home made. I can't imagine that being a commercially produce roadster body. Very angular transitions between the vertical surfaces and the horizontal, particularly aft of the doors. Circa 1920 ? remake of a Marmon 48 touring . Also wheel diameter is quite a bit smaller than stock. Once again suggests a post WW1 remake . Many / most of the large car tire sizes were discontinued during WW1 and if you wanted to continue driving a " brass era " , big car post war you had no choice other than to fit cut down wheels and smaller rims / tires. Photo looks to be later 1940's / early 1950's.

Stoddard Dayton

Joe, you would like the way that the really big studs are tensioned on ships and other very large machines. The stud extends well past the " nut " . The nut is actually just a large cylinder of steel, no hex. Just a series of small radialy drilled holes close to the top of the " nut ". To tension large sleeves are fitted over the nuts. the sleeves have slots milled through them coresponding with the radial holes. Then large hydrulic jacks are screwed onto the part of the stud that stands clear of the stud. the correct pressure is applied to the jack stretching the stud the correct amount. The nuts are then wound down with small pieces of round stock that fit the radial holes. Just snug then back off slightly. { usually 2 or 3 of the radial holes , the manufacturer specifies how much } . The hydralic pressure works through the sleeve to the head surface and pulls upwards on the stud. Then release the jacks and remove the jacks and spacers. Presto , a 100 % correct tension on the stud. To correctly tension fasteners of this size with conventional hex tools would be very difficult. The jacks make it quite easy. The jacks and sleeves are rather heavy however, if you are tensioning many studs at a go { like a full set of heads on a marine diesel, or a set of foundation bolts }. By the end of your shift you can tell your body has had a real work out.

Brass era bolts often appear to have been made as JV Puleo suggested. Machined from stock. But most of the ones I have looked at closely at seem to have started as hex stock rather than round stock. Reasonably frequently there is a small nub right in the center of the head where the almost finished bolt has been parted from the unmachined portion of the hex stock. And as mentioned they were probably made on automatic machines . The threads themselves may have been rolled rather than cut . But the shank often appears to have been machined down to the required diameter from hex stock the same size as the head .

Thanks Ariejan ! Those I have previously seen. Staver Chicago seems to be one of those makes that are all but forgotten. Croxton - Keeton is at a similar state of obscurity. Both just a tiny footnote of automotive history.

Thanks ! Those are two I have never seen before. Both great pictures.

This one is probably a 40 H.P. but it is hard to know for sure. And probably 1912 or 13. Also Detroit P.L. Digital Collection.

Have either of the two of you early car specialists { Ariejan , Varun } come across much for Staver Chicago ? I have a fair bit of factory advertising material, yearly catalogs etc.. But almost no period photo's other than those that appeared in the various trade journals of the day. Usually quite grainy reproductions of photo's. There was a scrap book of photo's of some of Staver's racing team cars and drivers on ebay several years ago. However I was soundly out bid and just have a few downloads of photo's. No idea of who bought it. Genuine photo's of Staver automobiles around the time they were in daily use seem quite rare. Here is one from the Detroit Public Library Digital collection. Unfortunately it is a 30 H.P. car and not the 40 H.P. like my basket case project.