Ziebart Undercoating - Good or Bad idea?

[our51super]

Hi All,

Teresa and I just added to our car "collection" (I'm not sure if 2 cars constitues a collection - it just sounds good). We bought a 1972 Cadillac Sedan deVille. The body and interior are pristine but underneath there is some surface rust on the frame. I was thinking of having it undercoated. I spoke with someone at Ziebart who told me that they first treat everything under the car that doesn't get hot (i.e., everything but the exhaust, engine, transmission) with a rust neutralizer. They let that dry for 24 hours afterwhich they apply the undercoating. The whole deal would run about $230 out the door.

In the past I have heard both good and bad about undercoating - things like it will trap the moisture and cause more damage. As always I like to check with you all and see if I can learn from your experience.

Thank you in advance.

[Guest]

An undercoating job is as good as the operator.I had a 54 Buick that rotted out around the headlamps.The moisture had been trapped there by the undercoating.Having been in this business(you wouldn't believe how long if I told you),our policy was to undercoat a new car before it got wet.

[Guest]

Ziebart????/ i didnt know there were any undercoating outfits still in business!!! The undercoating is worth its weight in gold IF PROPERLY APPLIED!

If NOT properly applied it is a waste of money. Slip the guy an extra 50 bucks to let u stand there and WATCH the operation. BE knowledable about the car and where and how to properly apply it.

Its just like the difference between a good paint job and a custom paint job. About 1 gallon of paint and the gumption to reach up under fender rail with the gun.

[Guest]

someone wrote:

"),our policy was to undercoat a new car before it got wet."

Not real sure what that means. As far as i know, cars are not shipped in moisture proof packaging.

[Guest]

However, unless u plan to use the car as a daily driver in a salty atmosphere then u really do not need the undercoating. If the car stays inside most of the time and not subject to severe moisture then i would not bother with the undercoating. Also, when i go look at a car to buy i prefer to see slight surface rust than undercaoting. When i see undercoating, especialy that which looks fresh on an older car i get suspicous.

[Ron Green]

I had a 86 Dodge van Ziebarted when I bought it new and for some reason still own it as it is a great daily driver. After 17 years and parked outside it is starting to get a few small rust spots in the rockers and thats all. Would do it again to another car without any second thoughts but as PackardV8 says unless you are going to it as a daily driver and it will be inside why bother?

[Guest brh]

I vote no on the undercoating for reasons already posted. I will be recoating my car with that stuff called POR.

[Guest]

I just finished restoring my frame with POR-15. They sell a frame kit. I must say I will do the same to my next project. They say this stuff dries so hard you can hit it with a hammer and it won't chip, so I hit the frame with a hammer and guess what, no chips. I just finished painting my engine with their engine kit. Same thing goes, incredible. I redid the gas tank with it, and painted basically the whole underneath of the car with it. This weekend I'm painting the rest of the engine compartment with it. That's my two cents worth. And, I have no affiliation with the company, just very impressed by their products.

[our51super]

Brian,

What's involved as far as prep work goes? Anything or just paint it over the rust and let it dry? Also, if you don't mind, where did you purchase the paint?

Thanks,

[Guest]

I purchased it online at www.porstore.com. It's called the Frame Coater Combo Special for $45. It has a qt of Marine Clean. You use that to degrease and oil the metal. A quart of Metal Ready that neutralizes the rust and leaves a zinc phosphate coating on the surface. And a qt of Por15 paint. The paint bonds to the rust and dries superhard. You just brush it on. I'll use it again on my next project.

Oh yeah, they say don't get it on your skin because it won't come off until it wears off. I went to work in my suit everyday for a week with a black spot on my face.I wore gloves so I only got it on my hands when I tested to see if it's dry. It looks the same wet and dry.

[Guest Skyking]

Brian, thanks for the info....I'm going to be doing my Met this winter, I will use that por15........

[Ron Green]

POR 15 is great stuff as I am currently doing a Amphicar frame and belly pans with it. POR 15 recommends that you install their product either directly over the rust or bare metal, not over painted surfaces. Getting down to bare metal can become quite a task if you have no plans to strip the car partially down.

Has anyone had and experience and proven by time painting directly over factory paint with POR 15? Some areas are impossible to get down to bare metal like inside the doors, etc without major work and time.

If you are using POR 15 for the frame you may want to go with the semi gloss instead of the gloss black depending on how it came from the factory. Semi gloss is also more forgiving in hiding dirt on a driver.

[Guest Mr. Solutions]

Working with POR15 is not easy, as several has noted in this and other threads. However, the results are WELL worth all the time and effort.

I personally have not used it over an already painted surface, as I have always taken the time and effort to strip the metal.

And I think this answers everybody's question as to how good it is: it is only as good as the amount of time and effort you put in to it. I spend around 80% of my time in stripping, cleaning (marine-clean) and then etching (metal etch) the parts I am doing. Having said that, the remaining 20% time I actually spend painting, and I paint by hand only, is just as time consuming. The POR15 paint has a very specific time frame after which the 2nd / 3rd coat needs to be applied, although I've never used a 3rd coat. The time frame is usually in the 4 hour range, so you can't start something & then leave; you must follow through!

Some things I've learned from POR15 usage:

- ALWAYS use a new brush; buy the cheapest vinyl / synthetic brushes you can find. There is no point in trying to save your brushes between coats.

- Several people have attested to the "skin thing" - believe it!

- Smaller cans, although more expensive, works better than larger cans if the spoilage potential is taken into consideration. The exception would be if you are going to do a large surface area IN ONE GO.

PREPARATION is 95% of your POR15 battles won, but worth a 100% in perfection.

I cannot attest to the long term benefits of this stuff (ie 1 - 5 or more years), from what I've witnessed in usage it looks like I'm in for the long haul as far as durability is concerned.

My comments are based on my own experience as well as extensive talks to 3 out of the 5 restoration companies in my neck of the woods that also happened to recommend it tome. Just wish the price wasn't so steep!

[old-tank]

I have had undercoated cars here in south central Texas and it probably helped as a sound deadener. You will learn to hate it if you want to remove it during a restoration. POR-15 will not hold up if the treated part is in direct sunlight like on a trailer (needs to be top coated); will not hold up on battery trays and brackets; and did not adhere after trying to remove fabric glued to it. In most cases acrylic enamel will hold up as well.

Willie

[BuickNut]

I've replied to other posts that have addressed rust using POR-15. I've tried the engine stuff, and will use it again. However, the frame paint, I've had very mixed results - despite applying it per their specs and instructions. I've had some areas where the paint has lasted through 2 years (including winters) of everyday driving, and other areas that haven't even lasted through the summer before it starts peeling and flaking off, with rust already forming where it was treated.

I've heard almost 100% satifaction with Corroless offered through Eastwood - and finally bought a quart to try - though haven't just yet.

Just my 2 cents worth. I suggest you try searching through the history of this forum, and I'm sure you'll come across other threads addressing this issue - and that my results are fairly typical of other members for the most part. Not to say there aren't success stories - but generally, the results with POR-15 have been spotty.

[Guest]

yeah, that acrylic enamal is tuff stuff and doesnt look 1/2 bad either. Recently painted an engine with it very early last spring and it has stuck just fine. Driven the car about 1000 miles thus far under high heat conditions.

[Ziebart employee]

To all of you wanting to know if Ziebart rustproofing is worth the money, it is.  IF APPLIED PROPERLY!!!  I worked for Ziebart from 1976 until 1986 when I got a better paying job. Rustproofing and undercoating are two different things. Undercoating is like soundeadner. Soundeadner is a thick goop they spray where you can see it.  You know, you look by the wheel and see black stuff and think your car is protected.  $600.00. You can get that at the Car Dealer.  Rustproofing is different. Rustproofing is like dipping your car in candle wax.  Undercoating is thick, bend the panel and it breaks water leaks in and it peals off. Save your money.  Rustproofing is... (they didn't give me formula) like candle wax mixed in solvent. Kind a like paint. It goes on thin and smells good. The solvent evaporates and leaves a wax film like paint. You can bend the panel and it won't break. Metal WILL rust. Iron will revert back to it's original property. You can't change that but can slow it down. PROPER RUSTPROOFING can prolong the life of your vehicle if applied properly. I hope this helps you. Try it for yourself.  Get three pieces of steel. Leave one bare, dip one in hot candle wax, and get a can of undercoating spray it on thick.  One month later pick up the two that are not rusty and bend it. The process does work if applied properly. If it were my 60,000.00 truck I would check their work.

[avgwarhawk]

Ziebart is good rustproofing IMO.  We had many cars sent through Ziebart.   All rust free for many years and beyond. 

[1937-44]

 Doubt the original poster is still deciding, considering this subject was started almost 16 years ago.

 

 To me it's a waste of money unless  the car is brand new. Many years ago I had a 1970 Chevy Impala (I was the second owner) sprayed. Some of the undercoating flaked off every year. They would respray for free but charged me $75 every year to power wash the car first. After a few years of wasting the money I quit taking the car in to be resprayed.

[60FlatTop]

Undercoating is also called sound deadener. I removed it all from the bottom of my '64 Riviera in the mid-1990's. I can tell it is noisier.

 

The '60 Electra still had the undercoat in tact. We cleaned it thoroughly and sprayed on a fresh coat. It looks good.

 

I wouldn't remove it from a car that had it and I wouldn't put it on a car that was bare.

Bernie

[fraso]

Being in Canada, I regularly rustproof my daily drivers and I've tried several different systems.  Krown works well but it seems to continuously creep.  It doesn't bother me but my wife hates dark film that appears around body panel edges all year.  The dark colour may be due to previous rustproofing coatings that were black.

 

I have a 73 Dart that was rustproofed long before we got it.  Wherever the coating was intact, the metal was sound.  My father did a DIY undercoating of his 77 Pontiac when he bought it.  Wherever the coating was applied, the metal was good.  Too bad he didn't have the wands to get inside the door panels and other inaccessible places.

 

We bought a new car this year and I decided to go with Ziebart's Permanent Rust Protection system because, although it goes on wet, it sets into a waxy film.  It was more expensive upfront but cheaper in the long run with annual touch-ups than the oil spray.

 

I think the skill and conscientiousness of the oil sprayer is more important than the particular brand of spray. I've had rustproofing jobs where the shop missed many places or barely gave the surfaces any coating.  It would wise to check any rustproofing work after the application and go back if it looks inadequate.  See Undercoating.