AACA Judging

[Restorer32]

Exactly but a newcomer to judging might be confused by the sentence preceeding the one you quote..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state AS WHEN THE DEALER RECEIVED THE VEHICLE FROM THE FACTORY." This paragraph needs revision in my humble opinion.

[R W Burgess]

Exactly but a newcomer to judging might be confused by the sentence preceeding the one you quote..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state AS WHEN THE DEALER RECEIVED THE VEHICLE FROM THE FACTORY." This paragraph needs revision in my humble opinion.

Funny you should say that Jeff. I have been asked to help out with a committee on revising the Policy and Procedure Manual. The pay is horrible, but the fun...????? Well, I'm actually still trying to find the fun part of this project, too. The point is that I expect all manuals from P&P through the Judges's Manual will be revised within the next few years. It's a slow process, but a necessary one. Hopefully, we can use some viewpoints/input from some of our AACA members to help with this task.

Wayne

[Guest]

From the Judges Guidelines:

"Any feature, option, or accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging."

__________________________________________________________________

OK guys, so this car comes to a show and it's wearing say fender skirts when the the factory didn't have that as a option, the factory didn't have a dealer installed factory approved option either. The skirts are aftermarket. My impression from all of you is this car is still judged anyway? Say this is a flawless car besides the skirts. Say the skirts are a five point deduction ( I have no idea about how many points can be taken away) and it wins a junior and later a senior. What this means is you can win a status with a vehicle that doesn't represent how the vehicle came from the factory or the product that left the dealer new. To me this is disturbing if it would be true. As a newcomer to AACA and former of other brand specific clubs a car described above would automatically push the car into modified or the car would open to protest to be put in modified. Seems to me that AACA should say to the owner "take the skirts off to be judged or not be judged at all " as a matter of it's own principals. I hope this is what happens.

If it were not true it's like saying ok Mr. convict we have convicted you of robbery there is no penalty and you can keep the money.

Don

Edited November 30, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

As the system now operates a vehicle could certainly win in AACA competition with the skirts you describe and I'm sure some have. I can't imagine a deduction of more than 5 points. I will leave it to others to argue the pros and cons of how AACA judges.

[Shop Rat]

CORRECTION TO WORDING OF THE DEDUCTION.

The current deduction for non-factory/non-factory authorized fender skirts is five points for the pair.

If that vehicle has no other issues and is the highest point vehicle in the class it will win a First Junior.

The Team Captain should approach the owner/owners and ask them if they would like to remove the fender skirts. It would then be up to the owner/owners to do so or not. Even if they removed them there will be a deduction for the parts that would hold them onto the fender.

The vehicle would still win but with a higher score but they would not know what that score was.

It would only really benefit them to remove them if it would make a difference in where they would place if taking them off would put them above another vehicle in the score ranking.

Right or wrong those are the rules we currently judge by.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[Guest proxie35]

Well, Well, this is ever interesting that the shirts were used as an example. For years it was never pointed out to the judges that GM never offered Fender

Skirts for Cheves. after 1954. That is 55-59, I'm not sure when they were offered in later years. I doubt if many judges know that these cars should not have skirts, because most people added the Fox Craft shirts in the 50s. In fact

I was the one who gave the documentation to the Judging Committee. Sherrel

[Jim Bollman]

I had a similar experience last year and it certainly points out some problems with our system. Two vehicles that were very good, potentially high pointing. One the owner had installed disc brakes on the front. The other owner did the standard rookie mistake of having the wrong hose clamps and cadmium plated plugs. Which is the better example and deserves the higher score. One was purposely modified the other could have been fixed for $20 and an hour of work. As you can probably guess the modified, not the improperly restored vehicle made the cut for first junior the other didn't.

[Shop Rat]

Jim, all it might have taken was one point off that the "modified" car didn't have and the other one got a Second Junior because of it.

I have said it many times and even started a thread about one point can stop an vehicle from getting the award the owner was hoping for. If the vehicle is outside the ten point spread of the highest scoring vehicle.....

[Guest]

I had a similar experience last year and it certainly points out some problems with our system. Two vehicles that were very good, potentially high pointing. One the owner had installed disc brakes on the front. The other owner did the standard rookie mistake of having the wrong hose clamps and cadmium plated plugs. Which is the better example and deserves the higher score. One was purposely modified the other could have been fixed for $20 and an hour of work. As you can probably guess the modified, not the improperly restored vehicle made the cut for first junior the other didn't.

_________________________________________________________________

Boy that says it all. In all fairness to participants and the credibility of the club something should be done. That is outrageous. I suppose someone who adds vintage air conditioning to a car that never came with it is going to do just fine.

Don

[MCHinson]

Jim,

We would have to know a lot more facts (that there is no way for us to know) to be able to discuss that situation intelligently. Like any judging system, ours is not perfect. Mistakes can be made in any system designed by people and run by people. While I have no idea why those two cars finished like they did, they got scores based on what the judges who were judging the cars observed on that day on the showfield.

[Restorer32]

The current deduction for non-factory/non-factory authorized fender skirts is five points each.

If that vehicle has no other issues and is the highest point vehicle in the class it will win a First Junior.

The Team Captain should approach the owner/owners and ask them if they would like to remove the fender skirts. It would then be up to the owner/owners to do so or not. Even if they removed them there will be a deduction for the parts that would hold them onto the fender.

The vehicle would still win but with a higher score but they would not know what that score was.

It would only really benefit them to remove them if it would make a difference in where they would place if taking them off would put them above another vehicle in the score ranking.

Right or wrong those are the rules we currently judge by.

How did you come up with the 5 point deduction per non authentic skirt? I can't find any such item on the score sheet under Exterior.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I don't have a dog in this race, but to those that are complaining, here is something I learned long ago from my Dad. When I complained about "that's not fair" he would say "you know the rules, boy. Play by them.".

Just my .02s worth.

Ben

[Shop Rat]

How did you come up with the 5 point deduction per non authentic skirt? I can't find any such item on the score sheet under Exterior.

First I wish to apologize for putting "each" rather than "for the pair" in my orginal answer. But most things are an "each" deduction on the form and you deduct according to how many of something there is (ie. doors, spark plugs, etc.) the total deductions not to exceed a maximum.

CORRECTION TO WORDING OF THE DEDUCTION.

The current deduction for non-factory/non-factory authorized fender skirts is five points for the pair.

Now to answer your question. I did not come up with the deduction. It was taught to me many years ago, and mentioned many times since, in the judging schools. I know that at one time, and maybe still, there was/is a photo of a vehicle with non-authentic fender skirts and we were told the deduction for them was five points for the pair.

[Belvedere]

If every AACA award vehicle winning a 1st Junior or Senior was required to be a 400 pt perfectly restored as per factory example, the trophy expense would be ALOT smaller! We judge authenticity and condition.

Our system works (in most cases) with the 365/375 pt minimum and 10 pt spread to give benefit to slight imperfections on original components (ex: chrome or upholstery) on an otherwise restored vehicle. I've seen many original vehicles win a 1st JR/Sr with a few imperfections. Awesome! The system worked.

In some cases a close substitute may be required in restoration, as the exact duplicate may no longer be available (upholstery material or tires) for a particular vehicle while repros are available for a more popular model in the same judging class. This doesn't make the first a modified. The system allows these 2 vehicles to compete on the same playing field.

If an owner wishes to add non-authentic accessories or mechanical upgrades, it is at the risk of deductions. The same can be said of the owner who chooses to not have his bumpers rechromed. He also risks point deduction.

This is a hobby. AACA is all about factory authenticity, but a showfield of 400 pt only cars would be very small.

The Foxcraft skirts on my Plymouth (yes they are a point deduction) look great. It hardly makes it a modified "street machine".

[Restorer32]

So the deduction would be taken under "Other" at the bottom of the judging sheet. I wasn't questioning the amount of the deduction , was just wondering if I had missed it on the judging sheet or in the manual. I suspect it is a potential deduction that is missed more often than it is applied. My personal pet peeve is highlighted script lettering on Chevy and Cadillac valve covers among others.

[Guest proxie35]

restorer32, here is enother thing that is missed 90% of the time. Chev. NEVER had a Blue Engine Or Decal on the valve cover (cars) untill the 1953 Power Glide Blue Flame engine. The 53 straight sheift cars had the Old Gray Engine. Sherrel

[Shop Rat]

So the deduction would be taken under "Other" at the bottom of the judging sheet. .....

Yes, it would be taken under "Other" in the Exterior Section.

[Guest]

[quote name=lovesolderplymouths;964190 AACA is all about factory authenticity' date='

The Foxcraft skirts on my Plymouth (yes they are a point deduction) look great. It hardly makes it a modified "street machine".

________________________________________________________________

Since I was the guy who brought up skirts, and AACA is all about authenticity and is not about modified street machines I will say this. GM sweep cut fender styling was never made to be shown with skirts. The skirts change the whole concept and look the designers strived for. If you skirt these cars you have now a "modified street machine". You have broken the lines of the car, and now make a conflict of interest of the body line.

I don't see how a car that has minor deductions for the wrong hose clamp, or spark plugs or a blemish on the inner wheel house can get dinged worse than a car that has disc brakes or a 61 Pontiac Catalina that HAS senior status and has a Super Hydramatic in the place of a Roto Hydramatic because the owner hates Slim Jim's. Even worse is the guy who buys a stock plane jane 61 Catalina automatic, changes to the up graded interior, installs Tri-Power (3-2bbl carbs.) a four speed, eight lug wheels. He hasn't restored the car, he has re-created what he would have ordered in 1961. Friends that is NOT authenticity. When I read about these exploits in the magazines (not AACA's) it makes AACA look a right chump with AACA award badges on the grille.

D.

Edited December 2, 2011 by helfen (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

So a 1910 Whatever that a fellow finds, missing numerous and major parts, which he lovingly restores after spending years gathering original parts, would not be allowed on a judging field if you were King?

[Guest proxie35]

If AACA judges all cars as they left the factory, then I'm sure most all judges must know that some 51 Fords came from the factory with this int. Sherrel

[Restorer32]

Most judges probably would not be aware of that upholstery option so it would be up to the car owner to show factory documentation if questioned re the authenticity of the upholstery. A judge would not deduct for the authenticity of the upholstery without first asking the owner for documentation.

[Shop Rat]

Documentation is the burden of the owner not the Team Captain nor the Field Judges. It is available for sale from vendors. Copies made from original factory sources can be had for a nominal cost from the AACA Library and Research Center. Owners of vehicles with "odd ball" anything should be able to provide said documentation when asked by the Team Captain about the item.

We do not deduct if the entire judging team for that vehicle are not 100% sure of even a one point deduction.

Team Captains can accept or decline verbal information given by the owner/owners.

[Guest]

So what about transmission swaps and disc brakes added when the car never came from the factory that way and their was never a option as such. I guess I don't have a problem with a car showing up that way, but the penalty should be such that the car should never place high enough for a award.

Don

[Guest proxie35]

Maybe things have changed in the last few years. I know what the Team Captain should do. I have shown many different cars over the past 30 years & many points have been deducted, several times the judges were wrong. I have NEVER been ask for documentation on any car I've ever shown. Before you say I shouldn't know what points were deducted ) Surely you know that you cain't keep a Sly Fox out of the Hen House. Sherrel:mad:

[Guest]

Maybe things have changed in the last few years. I know what the Team Captain should do. I have shown many different cars over the past 30 years & many points have been deducted, several times the judges were wrong. I have NEVER been ask for documentation on any car I've ever shown. Before you say I shouldn't know what points were deducted ) Surely you know that you cain't keep a Sly Fox out of the Hen House. Sherrel:mad:

_______________________________________________________________________

Are you saying that you can't see your score card so next time you can fix it???

Or if your car is in HPOF and your cars hood and front doors were painted by the dealer before you took delivery because of paint problems and because it was before delivery the dealer was acting as the representative of the factory in the respray and even though you are the original owner and know this to be true if you don't have documentation the paint is out?? This is true of my Oldsmobile. Thirty five years ago I would have never thought to keep such document.

I have a letter from the chief judge from OCA stating my testimony so at a OCA show I can present it to the judge team leader so I don't get dinged points for the paint.

D.

D.

[msmazcol]

Lots of judging questions! Do your self a big favor and order a $5 judges manual on line. Sit down and read it closely on a cold winters night. The vast amount of judging questions are clearly spelled out in black and white.

In the AACA this system has been in place and works well the vast majority of the time.

Then jump in and give it a try. Bring out your vehicles and have them judged. It is really not meant to make life hard only rewarding.

[Shop Rat]

..... Do your self a big favor and order a $5 judges manual on line. .....

They don't even have to do that. They can look at the whole manual on-line and print it all off if they want to. Keeping in mind that there will likely be changes to the 2012 manual. But as soon as that edition is available they can look at it and print it if they so choose.

[MCHinson]

And here is the link to the online Judging Guidelines:

http://www.aaca.org/publications/manuals/judges/2011_Judges_Guidelines.pdf