Gemmer DA steering Box More Help Needed

I am in the process of rebuilding a Gemmer steering box for my DA. I have read the previous posts including “hot rodding the Gemmer steering box”, all have been extremely helpful. However I still have a few queries. If I have missed this information in the posts, my apologies, I have only had a “mans look”.

1. Sector Shaft. I am intending to NOT replace with roller bearings (unless someone talks me out of it) but need confirmation as to the diameter, I think it is the same as the Ford Model A, 1.123 ish inches. It would appear that bushes are readily available. More importantly to me, what do I use as a thrust on this shaft. It seems that in the DA they used a leather seal, model A seems to use a brass washer. What and how thick should I use? Where from?

2. Worm Bearings and Cups. As I understand it, there are two types (as with Ford), with different width rollers and different angles. I have enough parts to use either if necessary, but I have no part numbers for either option and my local bearing suppliers are in “unhelpful” mode. Are they the same as the Model A ( I am not sure of the dimensions of them)? Does anyone have a bearing or cone number for either option?

Finally, you may as well have a laugh at my expense (take note Taylormade, if you read this). I shifted house some time ago, but after I had partially dismantled the steering box of my car. I have the shaft, steering wheel with controls, and worm, but no box or sector shaft. It is in my shed but for the life of me I cannot find it. Having spent a week off and on looking, I have finally given up. It will no doubt turn up when I no longer need it. However, I do have another three boxes, all in poor condition but I think I will be able to salvage enough to build a reasonable box. The worm that I have from my car is in good condition, as are the bearings, but I have no cups.

So, don’t shift house, or at least be more careful than I was.

Thanks for any help.

John

John,

I feel your pain. I packed my DL parts carefully, but all I see is a garage full of boxes! It will be a long haul getting everything sorted. Your fellow moving fool Taylormade.

Well, I have now got a little bit further with this, but not out of the woods yet.

I now think that I was incorrect when I said I thought there were two types of worm bearing and cup. No one has yet given me any part numbers and I have also been dealing with A.A. Bearings in Melbourne. As has been mentioned in this forum before, Denis is very helpful and sent me some bearings to try, but ultimately these were unsuccessful. However, he did hit the nail on the head last week when he suggested that the bearing cones on one of my worms may be removable and therefore show a bearing number.

This proved correct and I have ordered some bearings from him this morning. There is a big BUT, however. I now believe that this worm has been specially machined to take these bearings. This must have happened a long time ago, as I have had the car over 40 years and it was derelict when I got it. If anyone can prove or disprove this I would be most interested. Photo shows the "normal" worm on the bottom, my "modified" one on the top. However, there is another "but". The cup for this bearing is too large for the normal steering box housing. As I do not have the housing that this worm belongs to (it's the one I "lost") I cannot confirm this but I intend to have another housing machined to fit as it is only a bit too large. I have not included bearing numbers at this stage as I want to make sure this all works before I muddy the waters. Will let you all know if/when all is sorted out.

One thing that I still need to know about is the thrust washer on the sector shaft. Can anyone confirm what it is made of and how thick it should be?

John

Well, I have now got a little bit further with this, but not out of the woods yet.

I now think that I was incorrect when I said I thought there were two types of worm bearing and cup. No one has yet given me any part numbers and I have also been dealing with A.A. Bearings in Melbourne. As has been mentioned in this forum before, Denis is very helpful and sent me some bearings to try, but ultimately these were unsuccessful. However, he did hit the nail on the head last week when he suggested that the bearing cones on one of my worms may be removable and therefore show a bearing number.

This proved correct and I have ordered some bearings from him this morning. There is a big BUT, however. I now believe that this worm has been specially machined to take these bearings. This must have happened a long time ago, as I have had the car over 40 years and it was derelict when I got it. If anyone can prove or disprove this I would be most interested. Photo shows the "normal" worm on the bottom, my "modified" one on the top. However, there is another "but". The cup for this bearing is too large for the normal steering box housing. As I do not have the housing that this worm belongs to (it's the one I "lost") I cannot confirm this but I intend to have another housing machined to fit as it is only a bit too large. I have not included bearing numbers at this stage as I want to make sure this all works before I muddy the waters. Will let you all know if/when all is sorted out.

One thing that I still need to know about is the thrust washer on the sector shaft. Can anyone confirm what it is made of and how thick it should be?

John

John sent you a pm bob

Well, I have finally got the steering box back together. Yes, I know it has taken a while, but lots of other things got in the way (including two short holidays!!). Some of this may help someone one day, some probably not as it appears my box was modified to take different worm bearings, but here goes anyway. Thanks to idrjoe_sandiego for “Hot Rodding the Gemmer Steering Box”. I have adopted most of what he has described. There is also an article on the web by Bob Carabbio titled “Rebuilding the Gemmer Steering Box”. Although specifically for Model “A” Fords, the boxes are very similar, so much of what he has written is relevant to the Dodge box. Also thanks to robert b for confirming thrust washer thickness and other suggestions. So, here we go. Please note that the part numbers referred to are from the DA Instruction Book and photos are for a right hand drive box.

First I modified the box to fit seals, tube, etc., as per idrjoe_sandiego.

I then got some bearings to suit my (modified) worm shown previously in this thread. I used NSK 07098 Cones which fitted the Worm with NSK 07196 Cups to fit the steering box housing and steering worm adjuster. Both the housing and adjuster needed machining to accept the cups. This sounded a bit difficult for me so I had it done at a machine shop. When I started to reassemble things, I found the roller bearing cage fouled on both the adjuster and housing. I had to relieve both slightly and as this did not require any great accuracy, I did this myself. Adjuster in the lathe, housing in a pedestal drill using a specially machined locating sleeve and a “practool”, which is a device that uses a lathe tool to cut large diameter holes in plate steel. Won’t go into that any further, as probably will not be relevant to anyone else.

Then installed worm with the new bearings and all OK.

EXCEPT that the steering shaft was bent. Bob Carabbio talks about this, but as my car had not been in an accident I thought it would not be a problem. WRONG! Anyway, managed to straighten it OK eventually.

For the top of the steering column, I turned up, from nylon stock, a “top hat” type bush to accept a bearing SCE1416. This pushes into the steering column jacket (6) and the bearing locates the steering main tube (10). This replaces the steering main tube bushing (5). See photo.

Next came the sector shaft. When I installed the seal (as per idrjoe_sandiego), I installed new brass bushes as well. I decided not to go for roller bearings here as the shaft in my opinion was pretty good but may not have been good enough for rollers. I did however replace the Sector Thrust Washer (20) with roller bearings. This was part of the original purpose of this thread. I was unsure of the thickness of the thrust washer. I measured mine and robert b measured one of his and both appeared to be around 140 thou, so I used roller bearing TC1828 with two thrust washers TWA1828. The thrust washers go either side of the bearing and give the bearing a good surface to work on. Total thickness of two washers and bearing is 142 thou, rough enough for me. Therefore the housing requires no machining. The only problem is that the sector shaft has a radius where the thrust washer fits, so the inside diameter of ONE thrust washer (closest to sector itself) must be ground out slightly to allow it to sit flat. I used a die grinder. The bearing itself fits quite OK without modification. See photo.

The sector adjusting screw (23) had to be ground flat (Bob Carabbio), then I was ready to assemble. This I did and adjusted (with difficulty) as per the Instruction Book. I was not really happy, the box seemed to have too much play, but decided to install it in the car anyway. After connecting everything up, I convinced myself that it would be OK. That lasted a couple of days, by which time I had convinced myself it would NOT. Note that it is helpful to actually MEASURE the play at the steering wheel rim, going by feel can be deceptive. I tried to adjust it in the car, but that was no more successful. Out came the box.

On the bench, I again adjusted as per Instruction Book, but no better. Went back and re-read everything I could find, but no answer. I sat down and thought long and hard about this and it eventually dawned on me that while adjusting the box, when meshing the worm and sector too deep so that it dragged, it was not in the middle. These boxes are designed that when driving in the “straight ahead” position, the play is minimal (where it matters most), but as you turn right or left, the play increases. With mine, from the straight ahead position, if I turned right, the play decreased till it started to drag, turning left did not. Therefore, I was not getting minimum play straight ahead, but to one side. I deduced that the centre of the sector shaft did not line up with the centre point of the worm, in other words, the worm was further toward the bottom of the box to what it should be. This is not explained in the Instruction Book, probably because once adjusted in the factory, it should stay that way for life. But not only was I using a sector shaft that came from a different box, I was using parts that had been machined to take different bearings. The possibility for error was huge. Bob Carabbio hints at this when he talks of care in machining the bottom worm bearing without really saying why. The diagram at the top of his article actually describes the adjustments required, but is not very clear.

What is required is to adjust the centre of the sector shaft to be exactly in the middle of the worm. This can be adjusted by the eccentric screw at the bottom of the steering box (see photo).

I am not sure just what cars had this adjustment, for example, DA does, mate’s DC8 does not (fixed). In real terms, as per Instruction Book, as you are adjusting for minimal play, turn this eccentric screw back and forth so until you can get drag when wheel is in the straight ahead position. In reality, mine produced drag very slightly EITHER side of straight ahead eventually, but this is OK providing it is even, that is, a little bit to the right and a little bit to the left. But it MUST be even, NOT providing drag ONLY to the right, or left. Once you have achieved this, the sector shaft is central to the worm, so leave the eccentric screw alone, and go through the other adjustments (46) till drag just disappears (this adjusts how deeply the sector meshes with the worm). You should have minimal play in the straight ahead position. In my situation, because so much work had been done to the bearings, even with the eccentric screw fully to the right, it was not quite enough. In hind sight, this means that the bottom worm cup is set a little too far in the housing and should have been shimmed. I compensated by grinding away a little of the housing at the eccentric screw and inserting a 80 thou spacer to move the sector just a bit closer to the bottom of the box. I was now very happy with the adjustment, there is very little play “straight ahead”, less than ¾ inch. I may have lost you through this, it certainly took me a while to get my head around it all. Unless you have mixed parts from other boxes and/or installed non-standard bearings, this should not be necessary.

So, back in the car, all connected up and still happy as Larry. End of story? Well, not quite.

Filled box with semi fluid grease. After a couple of days, a drop of oil appeared on the ground. After all this, was not happy. Turns out leak was from sector shaft adjusting screw (23). I had not even considered it may leak from there. Put some Teflon tape round screw, and so far so good.

If this helps someone some day, good. If you never need to know, even better.

John

Nice explanation John. Thanks for that. I have play in the centre of my DC8, even though it has been rebushed and rebearinged etc. I understand the worms were made slightly tighter in the centre to allow for wear to be adjusted out, but mine is out of adjustment. It tightens each side. I think many "mechanics" put grease in them and rapid wear followed once the grease was wiped off the worm. RHD steering boxes that aren't worn out are hard to come by! How is the worm attached to the steering shaft?

To be honest, I don't know. I assume the worm is pressed onto the shaft, but I have not tried to remove one. I have a few that are seriously unwell, so might have a go at removing one out of interest.

John

Well, now I know. Removed worm using hydraulic bearing puller (note I did not experiment using my best worm!). Note in photo that shaft has key way, although this does not appear to be a removable key, key is part of worm. Worm also has a number of "ridges" on about half of its internal diameter. It is not just a smooth bore. These bite into the shaft, you can see marks on the shaft either side of the key way. Again, this is for DA, not sure of DC8.

John

My 2249 Senior has a Gemmer box but it is different in that it does not have cone bearings in it There are brass bushes in the housing above and below the worm and also in the sector shaft housing I had a couple of goes at mine, the second time after reading idrjoes tips Also machined the sector shaft housing and fitted a seal to it After setting it up (it takes time) I now have a steering box that is good as new

It's all of the shared information that other forum members pass on that makes an old car movement tick and I for one am very greatfull for the help that I have had from other DB owners This Is a top forum Ron

Spinneyhill

DC dodge owner Kevin bc here friend of Johns, the worm on the DC has to be pressed off, its the cones that are a tight fit, and the worm has a small keyway in it so it has to come straight off. Don't damage the cones as I obtained the last one in the world, but found a engineering person in Adelaide who made me 2 sets, can organise some if you need. Also have had harmonic balancer modified & rerubbered(old rubber was only about 3mm thick)so he machined some of the excess metal out to get a good supply of rubber in the joints, also this person rerubbered engine mounts, and cast up new bump stops for me, I can highly recommend him.

I also have a fair amount of play in my steering wheel with new bearings, but haven't really played with it yet(another must do). I also had the "restoring a Gemmer steering box" mod done to stop the grease leaking out the light sw seal, which is working too.

Kevin bc

Hello Kevin,

I overhauled my steering box in 2001. I fitted a modern seal at the bottom but my notes don't say what was done to do it or what the seal is (only cost $3 tho!). Play went from 2" to about 1/2" at straight ahead. I could get one side of the bearings (cups?) but not the cones, as you say. The old bearings were in xclnt condition so they went back in, with new bushes where appropriate.

I think the harmonic balancer is OK on mine - I can balance a coin on edge on the top of the engine while it is idling.

Thanks. I understand it would a lot of work but the DBC News is always looking for great articles. Perhaps in the right mood and the right time you could submit a couple of articles. The vacuum tank gas pump took 3 articles. I for one would appreciate how to do this.

Paul

Paul,

probably not a bad idea, but not right now. More to the point though, I am really only adding to others posts and I have not really rebuilt a STANDARD box myself from scratch, as mine had been modified probably 50 years ago. Still, when winter comes around and I am looking for an inside job, might reconsider.

John

I just ran into a steering problem with our Victory Six-  The chassis has been assembled for some time now, but I recently, for the first time, tried cranking the steering all the way from right to left with all the weight on the tires, and it binds tight with a loud squeak, worse one way than the other.  When I went thru the box, I used shim washers instead of the leather or thrust bearing, so I thought maybe that was the problem, so out it came.  I ordered the thrust bearing and washers, installed, and re-adjusted everything, including the centering procedure, and again it worked great on the bench, but when all attached to the rest of the steering, still tightens up and squeaky.  Tonight I plan to diagnose a little more, but anybody run into this before?  The only thing I'm not liking in the inside is the wear on the shaft teeth...see pic, the worm looks great to me-

I am not familiar with the DA box, but the DC box can't be much different. The worm was made with less clearance in the middle to allow for wear. Over time, the middle wears more than the ends, so the middle then becomes "hollow" and it binds near the ends. My box was rebuilt with new bushes etc. to very small tolerances, but it still tightens up near the ends of travel (near-full lock turns). There is about 3/4" slop in steering wheel rim at centre I can't get rid of. I was told regrinding after metal spray, hard chroming etc. won't work for long because of the shearing action on the worm surface.

What fluid are you using? A squeak doesn't sound right. I am using Penrite's Steering Box Lube, which is a semi fluid grease. Grease is too thick and won't flow back after a turn, so the worm becomes dry. Semi-fluid grease does flow back, slowly.

I have it full of 600wt oil...Tonight it seems not quite as bad, but still not right.  Another thing I noticed is if you jack up the front so both wheels are off the ground and start from either way full turn and try to turn the steering the other way(by the tire, not the steering wheel), once it gets to near the center, it wants to bind up.  But if you turn it by the steering wheel, it's smooth as silk.  The only other thing I can think of is maybe the tube I added up the middle to stop the leak is binding, but I don't think the tube is strong enough to cause the bind that I feel thru the steering wheel.  At this point it's tempting to finish enough other things to get the car running and see what it does when it is actually moving, even if it is just in the parking lot across the street...

Does it still tighten up/squeak when you turn with the steering wheel with the wheels off the ground?

John

I have it full of 600wt oil...Tonight it seems not quite as bad, but still not right.  Another thing I noticed is if you jack up the front so both wheels are off the ground and start from either way full turn and try to turn the steering the other way(by the tire, not the steering wheel), once it gets to near the center, it wants to bind up.  But if you turn it by the steering wheel, it's smooth as silk.  The only other thing I can think of is maybe the tube I added up the middle to stop the leak is binding, but I don't think the tube is strong enough to cause the bind that I feel thru the steering wheel.  At this point it's tempting to finish enough other things to get the car running and see what it does when it is actually moving, even if it is just in the parking lot across the street...

How much free play do you have in the wheel  at the center point , you must allow at least 1inch on the wheel outer diameter or binding will result.You should never attempt to turn the wheel with the tyers on the ground unless the car is moving,this way to much strain on the box which was it is not designed to do,only turn the wheel when moving. Bob

How much free play do you have in the wheel  at the center point , you must allow at least 1inch on the wheel outer diameter or binding will result.You should never attempt to turn the wheel with the tyers on the ground unless the car is moving,this way to much strain on the box which was it is not designed to do,only turn the wheel when moving. Bob

That's the info I needed to see...Now I feel relieved and kinda dumb at the same time..lol...I do have the free play in the steering wheel, and yes, it turns very easily with the wheels off the ground.  It really only bound up and made the noise when there was a lot of torque on it from the tires.  I now plan to move forward and get it running and mobile, then head across the street and do figure 8's and see how it works...Thanks for the input everybody!

No need to feel dumb, it happens to all of us. Having responded to your query, the steering wheel play was vivid in my mind when working on the DA today. Using the steering wheel to assist getting into the car, I noticed that there was LOTS of play. How could this be, as seen above, I put a lot of effort into setting the steering box right? The car is on axle stands and eventually dawned on me that the steering was on full lock, where the play is greatest. Back to the straight ahead position and all back to normal. WHEW. Had me worried for a while. Should know better, but in my defense, the front stub axles are covered up to stop me barking my shins and I could not readily see where they were pointed.

John