Antique Auto Radiators

[Willy]

I posted a 1933 Oldsmobile radiator twice on eBay, and never got a bid,

which makes me curious - are old car radiators not scarce? Is it easy

to have a radiator shop just build a replica? I have some others, but

I don't want to waste my time if no one needs them. I'm told that the

material in them is worth a tidy bit if I scrap them, but being an old

car buff, I don't want to destroy something that can't be replaced. Need

advice from someone who knows! Bill

[Guest 1929Chandler]

Bill, When I had to repair my 1929 Chandler radiator. I searched form months. Being in S.C. I tried the east coast first. But it being a honeycomb no one could fix it I had lots of shops who would replace it with a strait core but no one could fix it. I finally found a man that use to fix Jay Lenos radiators and he fixed it for me. He is in California and had to send to England for a core. It took 9 months but part of that was because UPS droped it and I had to send it back for him to redo it. He charged me what I concidered to be a fair price but it was not cheep. So in answer to your question. Yes if you want original it is worth keeping. But most strait core radiators can be replaced for 3 to 5 hundred dollars. The honeycomb is a whole different subject. Hope this helps you

[Restorer32]

Old radiators, even NOS ones are problematic in that the copper slowly deteriorates over time even if not used. Scrap radiators right now are worth about $1.00/pound on the East coast.

[Mark Shaw]

I suggest you keep the top and bottom tanks and replace the core rather than build everything from scratch.

[Guest rbl2]

If the radiator is in good condition it will sell eventually. Your problem is that there aren't that many 33 Oldsmobiles out there.

The Filling Station sells new honey comb cores for Chevys. I'm sure if you gave them the measurements they'd be able to get a core to fit other cars as well. I bought one for my 26 Chevy. It was definitely pricey, $650 including shipping but it's very well made and looks as good as you can possibly expect or want. I opted for a honeycomb core because I knew that I would not be happy with the new type cores. The honeycomb adds character and goes a long way to keeping and making the car look original.

[Guest Silverghost]

Willy: Your radiator might just be worth it's weight in gold to the right person!

Try posting it on the Olds forum here...Hemmings Motor News is also a very good place.

Please do not scrap it as I am sure someone might well need it. When these old parts are gone...they are gone forever!

I had a friend who paid $15,000. to have an early Rolls~Royce Radiator built fom scratch...Tanks and all! This was very costly as it was German Silver! But it is always better to have an old radiator to work with!!!

Ebay may not be the proper place for some of these old parts.

List them here...someone will call you in time!

[Ivan Saxton]

The posts on this thread raise several issues; and it is probably useful to look at basics and possibilities. There is probably little that a person with some worshop skill and essential equipment, and possessing necessary determination and understanding, cannot achieve for themself.

Repairs.

There are basically four types of problem you might encounter; Blockage, Leakage,

Accident damage, and Absence.

Blockage is caused by a combination of polar and non-polar material, deposited inside the radiative passages at engine operating temperature. Sometimes you can reverse this in service. To do this you have to make and install two easily cleanable line filter traps in the hoses between the engine and radiator. It looks untidy to drive around like this perhaps, but you have to reverse the flow in the radiator, collecting the rubbish out of the top while collecting anything that comes out of the engine so it does not start to block the other end of the tubes. This is the easiest and least intrusive cleaning technique, which is good before you try anything more radical.

Rust from the engine probably would not stick well to clean copper if it was not mixed with water pump grease. Rust by itself is not difficult to deal with. One of my friends has used molasses and water as a cleaning solution in the same way as you use it to derust steel. I have never read a plausible explanation of how this works; but my guess is that bacteria use the molasses as substrate while taking the oxygen they need from the iron oxide.

If you want to be a bit more severe you can do what Bill Orde did. The radiator core of Bill's 2 litre 1914 Itala was hopelessly clogged. To clean it he circulated boiling caustic soda solutionfron a four gallon drum with a fire under it through the radiator backwards, while keeping the core well wrapped with old rag to minimize loss of heat, and catching the rubbish as it came out the top. This very effective cleaning naturally highlighted dozens and dozens of marginal leaks, which had to be soldered. Now as you know, the first essential that you have to deal with in any soldering job is CLEAN the work. Hot solder and flux loves to wet clean copper or brass: Drty work it will not touch. So Bill marked the leaks, cleaned them with a dentist's burr in a Dremel, and soldered the spots with a pointed, tinned 1/8" copper rod heated by a very small flame. It may have taken a lot of patience, but it worked.

Complete lack of a radiator probably means many people would categorise such a car as suitable only for parts. But in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. I will have to make complete radiators for 1911 Lancia and 1913 Cadillac, and my so Stirling for a Templar and a Marmon 74, and I need honeycomb cores for a 6 cyl Roamer, two Mercer 6's, a BB Stutz and a Tipo 8 Isotta Fraschini. You can understand that I hve given this topic some consideration.

There are two basic types of honeycomb cores (but many patterns), cores made from roll-formed strip, and those made from "cartridge" tubes with expanded ends. Winchester were one of the big producers of cartidge tubes. With both types, to make a core you assemble the prepared material in a clamp-box of the required size and shape, then dip each face first in a flux bath of appropriate depth, then in another of molten solder.

It is very useful to remember that the melting point of solder depends of the percentages of tin and lead. You can get away with using normal plumbers solder, but then is margin for error it you use a hgher melting point alloy for the core than you use to attach the tanks.

Making a core is not rocket science, but I got Number One son who is a theoretical astrophysicist to do the calculations for me to make rollers to produce film for a number of different honeycomb patterns including square; but I haven't got around to making them yet. (He is much more interested in mathematics than I am).

Cartridge tubes are usually extruded using "washer" blanks one at a time in a die-set mounted in a mechanical impact press. The process involves considerable heat generated through the impact, and the metal flows through the gap between punch and die. Wall thickness is ideally about 7 thou for all radiator types. You hve to cut the tubes to length, and expand the ends so that when assembled, the tubes have appropriate space between them for water circulation. For round tube you form hexagonal ends, and for square tube the ends can either be square or rectangular. I bought about a 45 ton mechanical impact press for $300, which is fine if you have the workshop space to keep one. There is another way that you can make cartridge tubes to make your own radiator if you dont want to use such brute force. During the war, manufacturing industry were "volunteered" to produce what was required of them for the war effort, and Chamberlains had to make cartridge tube radiators for liquid cooled aero engines. They die-cast myriads of internal forms out of Woods'metal with the formed ends, electroplated copper onto them to the required thickness, then melted out the Woods metal in boiling water for re-use!!!! This is an alloy whose peculiarity is its very low melting point which makes it very useful for automatic fire sprinkler systems.

You really can do your own core if you want or need to.

Regarding the "German silver" Brad mentioned, the term is quite misleading as it contains no silver, but is an alloy of copper, nickel, and often but not necessarily zinc; so the material should more properly described as "nickel brass". It is readily available and not unafforably expensive, and soldering should offer no special problems. Tradesmen here always have a very sharp eye for any pretext to multiply a dollar, so it may be prudent to check whether the difference in price between "German silver" and brass or guilding metal sheet.

Some very early cars used gill-tube radiators. David Dryden has just made new gill-tubes for his 1904 Ford, and the job he did is just stunning.

Finally, it pays to run coolant solution in a clean system.

In the above I have deliberately refrained from describing things that I consider self evident. Please excuse any typographical errors I have ignored late at night.

Regards, Ivan Saxton

[Twitch]

I've heard of folks buying used radiators on Ebay and getting something worse than the one they had so that could be a deterrant besides the rarity of your specific application. Most have a good radiator shop they deal with and get theirs repaired/rebuilt locally. So unless someone has a car with noradiator or a destroyed one they're not buying much off Ebay.

[John Ogden]

I have a honeycomb radiator that my father collected.  Not sure the application.  It would be great if someone can ID the application.  I see a marking on the top tank: "E-3-37"

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Hg...ikSp05VX6I9GCk

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_W...U0jSyiMKoHClUj

 

Dimensions of the core: 20" tall, 15 1/4" wide

 

thanks!

[John Ogden]

Did I mention that I'd like to sell the radiator as well?  It seems to be in nice condition.

[franklinman]

Another issue for an item as heavy as a radiator will be the attendant shipping cost(s). In the past it wasn't such a big deal but with the ever increasing cost of shipping today it is indeed a major consideration.  For some things I've seen recently on eBay the shipping charge was as much, if not more, than the item was.  Still, I wouldn't consider scrapping it if it is in any kind of useable condition.  Someone will need/want it.

[Joe in Canada]

I needed a radiator for my 12 T last year and I was betting on finding one at Hershey. I never found one for my 12 but I did see them for 1913 and up. But what I did notice was that none of them were tested and were all asking big $ for them. The way I look at an old radiator is it will have to be record if not tested so price accordingly. I ordered a new one when I got home from the Brass Works.

[Chris Bamford]

Ivan Saxton, if you’re still listening — thanks for your interesting and very informative post above. I had a cartridge tube core built for my 1912 KisselKar 20+ years ago to replace a shot formed strip core.