Hot Rods, Street Rods and Modified

[Twitch]

Dude your cars are obviously set up to DRIVE and to please you. My Z-28 is well modified. On one hand I never considered it a "classic" just a special interest car. I never had or will have it or any of my cars judged by anyone but me. Your Challenger will sell for a great price if you decide to ever do that. It will not sell for less with the mods since there are too many folks out there who don't care.

[JB-ed]

Sorry I don't know how to isolate quotes but the guy who said this earlier:

"nearly 100% of the guys there would never think of ripping of a restored stocker. This is some urban myth that rodders are destroying rare old cars or a TV show script with the goofballs of Monster Garage."

...is soooo wrong. I bet 90% of street rods come from nice solid cars. Check ebay descriptions, "Started with rust free California low mile car..." We have an example of a 1928 Dodge coupe that won First Senior at Hershey in the 1970s now a street rod. Last fall a coupe was advertised as being hacked from a 15,000-mile museum-fresh original. Look at who buys many of the older restorations and originals on ebay--street rodders. The "urban legend" is that rodders start with crusher bait. Why would they? The economics are the same for them as for restorers.

Now to get back to letting street rods into a car show. Suppose you drive your all restored, authentic 28 Chevy to a car show. Next to you parks a rodded 28 Chevy. You spent 10s of thousands of dollars restoring your car to originality because you'd thought it was worth it. The rodder spent 10s of thousands cutting it up because he thought the original car was worthless.

What exactly do the two of you have in common?

As someone said above, the rodders have their own shows. What is their motivation for invading ours?

Personally I will not bring any of my 1920s cars to an "antique car" show that allows street rods. I will however take them to cruise ins to show the general public that there is still plenty of activity among younger people with original pre-war cars.

Everyone seems to forget that the pre-war and especially pre-1930 street rod craze will die with the baby boomers, so why prolong its misery?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The "urban legend" is that rodders start with crusher bait. </div></div>

I've had years and years of trying to make this point here. (Although I would've qualified this statement by saying "most rodders" or "all rodders". I'm sure many do care about the history that's being exploited.) Reading the want ads of <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> "rodder" publication with an open mind should settle this question for anyone. Open minds are often hard to find.

However it seems it hasn't <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> fallen on deaf ears !

[Twitch]

The problem we have is the fact that now in 2005 we attempt to retroactively project today's values and perspectives to the past and condem people from other eras as evil bumpkins bent on single-mindedly destroying 100% stock original cars before we could get our hands on them. Almost every rodder replied that they would NOT tear up a restored or original classic to make a rod TODAY. What most all said was why would they want 1932 technology and mechanicals on a 2005 street rod when they can basically purchase parts and assemble one from wheels to repro body and have a NEW old car? Hot rods are to DRIVE! They have performance to accelerate and stop. 1928 cars can't do that.

"In he early sixties, though, it was just a 25-year-old car- not a true classic defined by the snooty crowd, not terribly rare thanks to a record production of 220,000 built in 1937 alone, particularly plentiful in California where Buick was hittling record sales numbers, and perhaps not looked at that differently than a car we might view from 1980 today." --This quote is from staffer Jeff Koch in the May 2005 Hemmings Classic Car issue regarding a 1937 Buick resto job.

This is the essence of the antithesis of the flawed thinking we come up with when we darn people that modified 20/30-year old cars 40 years ago! It's easy to smugly sit here today and know what has happened to the hobby car market along with the inflated record auctions and public's general lust for old cars.

Comparing dumb TV shows like Monster Garage or similar is pertinent on one hand but futile on the other in relative terms. Let's talk TV. Remember the Untouchables from 1959-1963? They were crashing cars from the 20s but there sure wasn't any hobbyist uproar about it was there? Why? Because there were lots of cheap era cars to crash. Relative to the time no one was thinking of a future escalating specialty auto market to come. Think about that. If we humans could project into the future and know what was going to happen we'd do things quite differently. I'd have kept all the cars I owned in the 60s/70s that would one day become sought after. But who knew?

MOST of the modified cars around from the pre-50s were modified in the 1950-70s when there wasn't any knowledge of future values or rarity. This is like telling a guy today that his 1985-2000 Firebird or Camaro, of which there are zillions, shouldn't be modified because SOMEDAY it MAY be worth something if he parks it right now and stores it till 2040.

In the 50s/60s any non-exotic, non-expensive or non-limited production cars were sneered at by the then so-called classic hobbyists. Back then virtually NOBODY wanted them other than kids, because they were low-priced, or the few niche eccentrics that liked old cars. There was no movement to save any average "old cars" other than cars like Mercedes, Pierce-Arrows, V-16 Cadillacs, Dusenbergs, Auburns and one like that. If you had a well kept 36 Ford in 1956 it was just a well-kept old car just 20 years old. Are we in 2005 in a big movement to save 1985 Ford Granadas? No! No one was worried about 20-year old cars back then either.

Look at just Ford production and tell me honestly that in 1955 our fathers weren't awash in "old cars":

1930- 1,140,710

1931- 615,455

1932- 210,824

1933- 334,969

1934- 563,921

1935- 820,253

1936- 930,778

1937- 942,005

1938- 410,263

1939- 487,031

1940- 541,896

1941- 691,896

1942- 160,432

It's nearly 7 million Ford alone! How many of all marques were around in the 50s? One thing for sure they weren't rare. If anyone has any ideas how our Dads should have foreseen the boom in prices their kids would enjoy and preserve MILLIONS of "old cars" let me know. Shoulda/woulda/coulda, huh?

By the mid to late 60s a very nice stock 1940 Ford was going for $175-250 max! So what was a 1928 Dodge going for in 1975? The "classic car" investment craze didn't even hit till the mid-late 80s when the greed of artifically escalating classic prices was dreamt up. Owners entered them in auctions with huge reserved prices that couldn't be reached and when bidding was over their $20k car was bid to $40-50k but thay had a 70k reserve. They went to the insurance company and cheerfully paid a higher premium with the accompanying bid as evidence of value. With the inflated "value" the owner could use the car as collateral for whatever he wanted. This ultimately spread to average classic whose values began to inflate as these jamokes saw ways to make big profits in old cars. Frankly if anyone owns a stock 1928 Dodge it theoreticaly went up in value if another was rendered no longer stock.

Now back to our rodders. Since I asked at a hot rod site they mostly all replied they wouldn't cut up a restored or all original car to make a rod today. If they buy an already modified car done 40 years ago that is not the same thing. What they would do is take a junkeyard steel body and use it over a modern chassis if there was no fiberglass repro of the junked body. Hey if a hulk from the 30s-40s has been decaying for 60 years without a 100% original restorer guy "rescuing" it, then it's fair game when the alternative is oxidized dust in another 25 years.

As a writer on the subject of combat history I find it easy to look back and see how a conflict could have come out differently given slightly different circumstances. IF They hadn't appeased Hitler what would have unfolded? IF they would have recognized the radar blips for incoming Jap planes Pearl Harbor would have been on alert. There are many folks with the bankrupt philosophy that if the German's had built more jets they could have won WW 2. Just how were they to know in 1939 when Europe was crumbling to their quite orthodox aircraft that they should commit to jet technology to use a few years hence?

I guess we should have known that the dot com boom was surely coming in 1990 too and we should have invested in certain stocks.

If there are potential classics from the 1980s-90s around then let's buy them and store them for 20 more years. Come on, let's put our money where our mouths are and gamble that some nerd in 2025 is turned on by that 1986 Dodge Omni decaying in your garage since 2005.

There will always be an interest in pure, unmodified American classics and hot rods. I respectfully disagree with the idea that hot rods will die with baby boomers. They existed in another form before us and our kids and grandkids will understand their unique-ness and investment value as well. These cars have been changing hands for decades being re-modified by subsequent new owners.

Certainly the thread starter pondering the question of whether his group should allow a controlled amount of hot rods into a club or show was interested fundamentally in an injection of dollars via dues etc. from participants and the general public. There obviously is a finite number of stocker owners that can carry any organization financially. What other niche category of cars should be entertained as worthy to inject financial resources into a dead gene pool of original cars? 1980 K-Cars, Mavericks, Biscaynes? How about exotica imports? Hmm? Standard econo-cars from the 70s- Vegas, Coronas, Datsun 510s?

In my neighborhood of about 8 square blocks I have counted well over 30 vehicles 25-years-old+ going back to 1941. This doesn't include several pick ups. One new car just showed up- a 98% stock 47 Chevy. In the 50s in St. Louis there was no 8 square block grid with 30+ cars from the 20s-30s lurking around. I don't care who you are or where, it is unparalleled that in an urban 1957 area you saw the amount you see relatively today. That doesn't mean there weren't some but it wasn't a cool thing to have an old car as it is now.

Classic Car is right- in 1962 a 25-year-old car was just an old car. I just can't see defying personal memory either to say that there was a huge classic car grass roots movement when there wasn't until the late 1980s.

I won't agree with hot rodding a 100% stock 1937 Ford in 2005 but considering neary a million were made I won't condem someone that did it in 1962. Besides I could build a new old one with modern repro parts. As Classic Car mentions the snobs of that time didn't even consider it worthy of status.

[michel88]

I have to disagree about rodders not tearing up and rodding nice original cars. I have a '51 Ford Country Squire (woodie) wagon which I bought from the original owners family. It has original paint and wood in very good condition. It was always garaged and I was very lucky to find it. I bought it about 15 years ago and joined the National Woodie Club. At that time most of the '49-'51 Ford woodies that were for sale were stock. Lately about 75%-80% are modified with 350 Chevy engines (what else?) and subframed. This has all happened recently, not 40 years ago. I have a feeling that my car will end up this way unfortunately.

Woody Michel

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> [color:\\"red\\"]<span style="font-style: italic">Almost</span> every rodder replied that they would NOT tear up a restored or original classic to make a rod TODAY. </div></div>

Twitch: The five guys I've seen chopping up restored cars on <span style="font-style: italic">Spike TV</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">The <span style="font-weight: bold">Learning</span> Channel</span> in the last year told me not to bother reading the rest of your post. People <span style="font-style: italic">today</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">do</span> cut up nice cars and previously restored classics to make rods. Even Full Classics. It's done <span style="font-weight: bold">commonly</span>, and it's being done with <span style="font-weight: bold">increasing frequency</span> every year. Move on.

Nobody's condemning the buyers/restorers/drivers of cars that were chopped in 1961. Nobody. Nobody's condemning the rodding of true junkers that'd otherwise be crushed. Nobody. Your defense of (what I would call) "legitimate rodders" here is pointless. You <span style="font-style: italic">can't</span> deny the problem by redefining it.

The next time you see a truly rare car that has been rodded, look under the hood. It's a certain bet that the engine you'll find was bought and put there within the last 5 years.

Hot rodding is, and always was, about individuality. So's tattooing a snake on your face, <span style="font-style: italic">until everyone else has one!</span> Individuality is good, but...When every shop teacher and letter carrier in the U.S. decided that they wanted to be just like "Tim the Tool Man" and drive a hot rod too, the game was on! It's now very hard to be "different" behind the wheel of a street rod, <span style="font-style: italic">unless you cut up Old Man Wilson's useless Huppmobile to do it!</span>

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's now very hard to be "different" behind the wheel of a street rod, <span style="font-style: italic">unless you cut up Old Man Wilson's useless Huppmobile to do it!</span> </div></div>

The fact that starting with a solid/restored car saves you a few bucks in your rod creation is just gravy.

The fact that with a restored car with high parts demand (especially a really rare one) you can sell off unwanted bits and build a hot rod at very low cost or even a profit makes it [color:\\"red\\"]<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">just dandy!</span></span>

[Twitch]

The question remains- If most of the modified cars came about in the past few years what were all the alleged 100% true to stock organizations of restorers doing to keep the originals out of rodders' hands if, as mentioned, you're afraid of a car you OWN NOW being modified? Just how is it possible to have conserved the MILLIONS of potential classics that have graced the roads? What could anyone have done? Who was doing what in 1990 about any of the ramifications of any of it? How does any organization or individual block the free trade of a party selling a vehicle to someone that may someday modify it?

Another factor people will notice if they actually look at the modifieds is that with very little work, if it was desired, they could be returned to 100% stock condition. It is certainly easier and less costly to accomplish than to take a decaying derelict and pour untold money into it. The modifieds are mostly not radically altered with major body changes at all. Why aren't the good '100% stock' folks doing that? That's the REAL question.

To say that the "every man" can't pursue his desire if he has the money, be it for stock or modified old car is elitist. Simply because me and a scant few folks like me believe old cars now running should stay the way they are is futile. Blaming TV isn't going to help either since the truth is that Americans have acquired more disposable income. Beyond hobby cars there are jet skis, boats, ultralight aircraft, ATVs, motorcycles and hordes other things to squander leisure time money on. We've go more money than we know what to do with.

Most of the guys I talk to at cruises with modified cars made them from garage junk over the last 50 years. Only a few were actually running when they got them and almost none were in anywhere near stock condition. Most all had many missing, wrecked or defective parts. At the Long Beach Swap Meet last month there were about 100 cars for sale. Almost all were stock or nearly stock. No rad customs. There were basket cases and seedy looking project cars that could become anything. In Southern California that's the reality of the situation. Believe what you all want. I have no idea about anywhere else.

So how do we emphasize that a 1988 Fiero may become a classic someday and the guy shouldn't crush it or part it out today?

T I again return to the initial comment of this thread about how to bolster the bottom line of the club- hot rods or something else? What would get an auto organization into the black sooner, the participation of street rods or economy sedans from the 70s/80s? Pre- 1970 imports? Seriously.

[Guest imported_Fiesta]

Ira,

I've been to quiet a few of your car shows and I found them very boring. The show you had on Sunset Plaza had only a few cars. The cars were nice but there were only a few, same at the other event you had in Kendall, horrible location. Why don't you organize a show in Miami Beach? Ft Lauderdale in my opinion is way better than Miami for car shows but if you want to have a show in Miami don't have it in Kendall. Go to the Towers Shop in Ft Lauderdale on friday and see what a good show that is. It's loose and way better than yours. I do not attend your shows anymore unless I really have nothing to do on that day.

[michel88]

A car is only original once is a statement we have all heard many times and is very true. The fact that my '51 Ford woodie has survived for 54 years with it's original paint and wood is very unusual. Yes I am concerned about what will happen to it when I am too old to maintain and drive it. Will it fall into the hands of a rodder? Will he care about its originality? I doubt that he will give it much thought as he torches off the front of the frame to "improve" it by subframing it. (everyone knows these cars can't really be driven without disk brakes!) Then after the 350 Chevy engine is put in and the driveline is replaced, it has to be lowered and 20" wheels added. It's odd that with this quest for individuality, all modified cars seem to have the same things done to them! To bring a car back after these modifications would be a hard and expensive task.

Woody Michel

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> To bring a car back after these modifications would be a hard and expensive task. </div></div>

Understatement of the year. What fun it must be trying to re-attach severed frames! Could you imagine having to <span style="font-style: italic">unchop</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">unchannel</span> a woodie, or any other car?

[1937hd45]

I've got the 4 inch pieces from a 1928-29 Ford Tudor top chop if anyone needs them.

[Guest BillP]

Too bad, I was looking for some three inch pieces.

Bob, it would be more efficient if you listed the stuff you DON't have.

[Twitch]

I have a stock 1950 Packard in original condition right down to the 1950 headliner. The daughter and son in law that will inherit it are all for keeping the 100% originality. They have an "old car" passion. You know, you could put the stipulation in your will that the woodie stays stock. I can't imagine your kids making a rod out of it if they have any respect or love for you.

BTW the vast majority of "modified" or "rods" are so close to original it's scary. Most have no chassis work beyond wheels, tires, shocks and a sway bar. The bodies may be shaved- door handles and stock chrome removed. The original engine and/or tranny may be gone but often resides in the garage. The slicing and dicing is mostly done on TV shows not in Joe Average's home workshop. I'd rather reverse engineer one of these than start with the virtual nothing of a hulk that's sat outside for 50 years in rain and snow. I've heard people around here tell these guys that find an "all there" ancient car to restore it rather than part it out. That's well and good until you need replacement parts. Most of these heaps are rusted through and through and would need a Boyd Codington caliber of talent with huge amounts of new metal spliced in at the attendant high cost.

Like MrJamo said he's been disappointed at the few in number cars at a "show." That could typify the general public's feeling as well. When I see a cruise or swap meet sale with 100+ of all kinds of cars- stock-restored, modified, original stock and all the people that own them getting along and the public viewing them equally with interest I know there is something wrong with a picture being painted of rivalry, hate, boredom, distain or whatever sentiment someone is rationalizing. In So. Cal. people appreciate all cars for the talent involved in personalizing a low rider or doing a perfect resto on a 39 Buick. People here just don't see these cars as good and bad. They simply see them as diverse expressions of automotive culture.

I'm sorry if the rest of the country is allegedly different and some love/hate thing is at work depending on the particular auto discipline being shown.

MrJamo- come to most any cruise event in Southern California and you'll see 100-150 cars lined up side-by-side. An actual show might bring out 300. There'll be 1939 Fords mildly modified, absolutely original 1948 Desotos, 1929-32 Fords/Chevies both stock and rodded, AMC Matadors, Dodge Chargers, Camaros, Mustangs and tons more. You will not be bored!

[Guest imported_PWN]

Turning a solid old car of even moderate rareness or uniqeness into a rod is a sin and the rodder should be hung from his balls and have needles inserted under his nails before being shot.

Sure people like rods but people also voted for gw bush. Does that make them right, wrong or just idiots??????

Cheers

[Twitch]

Being prejudiced does the club guy in Florida no good at all. If hot rods should be excluded just WHAT category of cars/owners should be encouraged to participate that would be a profitable entity to the club?

How about if we said "Sure some folks like NASCAR but some folks voted for Ross Perot. Does that make them them right, wrong or just idiots?!" Instead of NASCAR insert: brass-era cars, bonneville cars, exotics, imports, showroom stockers, restored pre-war cars, trucks or whatever and see how prejudiced and tunnel vision it sounds as the statement offends anyone and everyone depending on the key word.

Again, we don't see any new ideas on how to keep original cars that way so owners do not modify them, just sillyness. Why not condem the NASCAR folks since they destroy a perfectly good stock automobile and make a yucky racing car out of it. Why that car might have become a classic one day....

If a club is self described as having a continuity problem in the mix of cars and their appeal to participants and the public why would fixating on one narrow type of auto class be benificial to the profit margins and the public interest? Maybe with an open mind and careful orchestration of a variety of car types someone that came to see one kind of car might develop an interest in another. Or is that giving Floridian car buffs too much credit for itelligence and open-mindedness?

[Guest imported_PWN]

Quote from someone on the Chandler Cleveland forumn regarding a Ebay sale the other day.

"People who bought that 1929 chandler on ebay are going to Cut it up (major rod project) and sell the rest of the parts they do not use. I know this for a FACT. "

We are talking about a car that is in restorable condition. A complete car. Fewer than 300 chandlers survive and the 29 is the last year they were made.

I stand by my earlier statements about dumbasses who take solid old rare cars and rod them out - only a moron, a fool, a completely selfish idiot would cut up this car to satisfy their disgusting need to create something unique.

Wasteing time on rods is stupid - but what this fool is going to do is criminal.

I hope they buy cheap jack stands.....

[1937hd45]

What a shame you lacked the funds to save that jewel.

[Dave@Moon]

So Peter, how do you really feel?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> "People who bought that 1929 chandler on ebay are going to Cut it up (major rod project) and sell the rest of the parts they do not use. I know this for a FACT. "

....- but what this fool is going to do is criminal.

</div></div>

..and unfortunately dirt common. I documented dozens of similar rods in the Lost Souls thread. I could've listed hundreds. Anyone could. At this point I'm convinced that there are many more former Huppmobile street rods (for instance) then there are restored Huppmobiles. There certainly are more rodded examples to be found online than authentic cars. It appears to me there is a small cadre within the hot rod scene that are specifically targeting rare cars.

And snide comments about not "saving" the car yourself are to be expected next, if the pattern holds true. It seems that some feel that because the market pressure is in the direction of destroying antique cars then it must be a good thing. It's a pure capitalist approach to the problem that is a popular catch-all for most problems these days.

It nicely absolves everyone involved of ethical responsibility and the burden of using their own judgement. Easy is always popular.

[1937hd45]

Sorry if the truth hurts Dave. If that car was worth restoring a restorer would have bought it. The next question is if the unwanted original parts are offered in the open market will anyone buy them?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry if the truth hurts Dave. If that car was worth restoring a restorer would have bought it. The next question is if the unwanted original parts are offered in the open market will anyone buy them? </div></div>

I was typing my response when your's was posted, Bob. I didn't know it was there, but I knew one like it was coming. <span style="font-style: italic">"Truth"</span> has a way doing that.

[R W Burgess]

PWN, You're preaching to the choir here. And, how can you be sure every rodder is a criminal if you don't personally know them? Wayne

[Guest imported_PWN]

Whoever is destroying the Chandler may not have been a criminal but what he is doing to the Chandler most definately IS criminal.

I can not find the pics of the car that were on ebay, but it was a SOLID car and nearly complete.

Crying shame.

[Twitch]

Like 1937hd45 mentioned- too bad you couldn't buy the car. If it was listed in a public auction it seems that if a person wanting to restore it didn't want it bad enough to bid higher. At any rate those cars that have been modified make the remaining originals worth more.

I haven't heard any feedback here about what any individual or organization has done to get the word out about saving original cars to the masses. It's great to lament the fact and put on an indignant air and curse the perpetrators to a social crime but it doesn't go very far in addressing the dilema. These people are "criminals" only in the very narrow, perceived sense of a handful of cloistered individuals since no legal statute exists regarding who is allowed to purchase what with their own money.

When a WW2 fighter crashes beyond repair it's one less that the public will ever see fly. There are many examples of aircraft that are not airworthy. They reside in museums. Some reside on airfields rotting just like the many specialty cars that exist in this country. I suppose I should endite those involved in flying these rare birds. Far fewer fighter planes graced the sky than autos of any vintage. Isn't it "criminal" too that if there are 7 flying P-38s left and one is destroyed that the pilot that did it should be hung- if he survived the crash? Know what? When the last flying example of any plane has landed or crashed for the last time we move on. I know a long list of planes of which there are no longer flying examples. There's a bunch in museums all around the country though.

Most of the collector cars are viewed at shows by people while sitting at rest with other vehicles 99% of the time anyway- just like a museum! Trailered cars that never drive and rarely run are nothing more than museum pieces anyway! We talk about 300 or 60 examples of a certain car remaining. What about when 2 remain out of only 5 that ever existed in the first place? And those 2 that are left race at speeds over 150MPH? Well folks, vintage racing involves just that. People that have spend several millions on a Maserati prototype GT car from the 60s or a one-off Formula 1 car from the 50s actually dare to do that! How dare they risk destroying the last example of a Tipo 61 Birdcage Maserati!!! That car belongs to the ages, to history, to the masses! Let's attack the millionaires that squander huge sums doing that.

For all the lamenting and indignant posturing I see here I still haven't heard anyone mention a possible solution to save original cars or educate anyone in their rarity or future value. And no one has offered any ideas to the thread starter about what class of cars would be a profitable draw more so than dreaded hot rods. I see now why younger people shun outfits full of fanatics possessing points of view as narrow as a laser beam not seeing anything outside its focus.

[Guest imported_PWN]

Your point is well taken but what can anyone do? Idiots will be idiots and ignorance is not always fatal. That is why our country is being destroyed by a lying, AWOL, daddy's boy, ignorant fool.

I would have bought the car IF I had even an inkling of it's fate. To be honest, in my wildest dreams (how naive am I?) I would have NEVER thought that someone would have rodded out that old Chandler.

Can you educate someone like that - in all reality they are probably just as fanatical about rodding as I am about preservation or rare and unique old cars.

Your race car analogy is lame. You really think that someone is going to hit those speeds without ensuring that their rare and valuable car is not capable of it?, and do you think that those "races" are really races? Anyway what does that have to do with the DELIBERATE destruction of a rare old car by a nut?

I have not a clue as to what can be done, some folks are beyond help and beyond reason. After all, with our population as large as it is, the ineviatability of mutations that render people dumb idiotic fools beyond help is a given.

Cheers and just say NO to rodding out rare old cars!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> For all the lamenting and indignant posturing I see here I still haven't heard anyone mention a possible solution to save original cars or educate anyone in their rarity or future value. </div></div>

See So Now What? to get an idea where that thought takes you. The only thing people take to less around here than complaints about what is done with cars is suggestions about what isn't done with cars. That thread says it all. It isn't pretty.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would have bought the car IF I had even an inkling of it's fate. </div></div>

Peter, out of curiosity what did the car go for, and do you have a link for it?

[Guest imported_PWN]

ebay item #454485152

I tried to find some pics and the old ebay site, but I guess once the auction is done it is not accessible.

I think the car went for around 3,500$ but I could be mistaken. There is a thread on the Chandler/Cleveland forum about the car.

I remember that the ONLY rust on the car was on the passenger floorboard. The car was in VERY restorable shape. It appeared as if a Chandler owner had the high bid but lost out at the final showdown. Multiple Chandler club member bid on the car. I guess we learned something.

http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/showflat....;o=&fpart=1

[Dave@Moon]

That number's not right. I think I found it:

1929 Other Makes : All Models Chandler Item number: 4544851520

If this is it it sold for $5100. Aren't you glad street rods are only built out of worthless junk!

[Guest Skyking]

Around 1966 my younger brother bought a 1930 Model A Ford 2 door sedan. He was 17 at the time and it was his first car. His goal was to restore it to it's original condition. The car was rust free and in nice shape. He spent a few years doing a complete restoration. Now he's a guy that can do most anything, and when it's done, it's perfect, that being in body work, painting, welding, electrical, remolding a home, you name it and he could always do it.

When he had this car finished it would take first place in every show he entered, but he was very unhappy with the way it drove. In 1985 he decided to rod it. He made alot of old timers angry, but it was his car to do with what he pleased. He ended up selling the complete chassis & running gear to someone who was restoring a roadster. The guy who bought it was thrilled because he didn't have to do anything with it, but lay it under his car.

He spent a year fabricating a new chassis to support a 400 small block, a Corvette rearend and a new Cruger (sp) front end. He chopped it and did some other modifications and used the car to enjoy.

Today, he still owns this car and has driven it all over the country. If he had kept it original he would have never used it.........and believe me, he gets more compliments on this car now as a rod! Is he wrong in doing this? I don't think so.............

[Guest Skyking]

Dave, let's be honest here, what would you do with this car restored, drive it around the neighborhood?

[nearchoclatetown]

PWN, please explain the logic that "multiple club members" would use to watch a rare care be sold for $3500, obviously not knowing who the high bidder was. Why wouldn't they have bid what the car is really worth. That is if it was worth more then $3500.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, let's be honest here, what would you do with this car restored, drive it around the neighborhood? </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What would <span style="font-style: italic">possibly</span> be the point of membership in the ACAA for someone who <span style="font-style: italic">wouldn't</span> enjoy that? Why would you even be on this site if you have to ask the question?</span>

Our cars are doomed.

[Twitch]

PWN- I'm naive too, I guess, cause how do we KNOW the buyer is going to not restore it? Just because some schmoo that calls himself ebay states this in his 1st post on these forums. Sounds like someone baiting the hounds here.

The car pictured is NOT nearly done, ie., almost ready for the street. On the non-do-it-yourself market there's 20 grand of work to cherry it out.

Believe me the vintage racers do go all out in races. Of course they are in excellent shape. Those rich people can afford it but I maintain then that we poor slobs should create anarchy and take those valuable, historical cars away from them so we can....sit and look at them. Those are the rarest of all cars as they never were in production. Yet even if someone owns one of only 2 existing Ferrari prototypes, he races it. Same with the veteran fighter planes. They will fly till the last one lands forever then we can look at then in museums.

If we want to talk esoterica, the only surviving example of the Horton brothers jet powered flying wing, the GO 229, that took to the air in WW2 was almost scrapped in Chicago after the war. And even now it sits in pieces in the Smithsonian. Northrup engineers came to see it while they were designing the B-2. Yes, this plane is that important yet it sits in disrepair. Goes without saying it will never fly and at 60 years and counting since the end of WW2 my grandkids won't be able to see it either.

Sad thing is there are many dozens of rare aircraft like this in this condition. And the same factor has been at work as with this car= object is deteriorating due to lack of care yet owner will not part with object. This is also a big part of the overall problem. Maybe 35 years ago someone interested in actually restoring the thing could have without a major dollar investment. Now they shy away.

Dave- your old post is valid. At least you, as one guy, had a couple ideas. No one else seems to. All the hobby seems to be geared toward is museum-type cars so let's put 'em all in museums. What's the difference if there are 200 1922 Oaklands sitting in private garages or only 4 in museums at equa-distant points around the country? So what is the difference if I see one sitting static at an offical auto organization event in Sheboygan or gathering dust at Harrah's museum in Reno?

Perhaps today's "collector/restorers" are so jaded that an example such as the Ebay one is just too poor to bother with considering the atendant expense involved to bring it back to new condition so the jamoke can haul it around behind his F-150 going to shows and collecting a bunch of hardware.

In 1972 only 2,572 Z-28s were made due to a long factory strike. How many remain? I don't know either. These are very rare cars, right? Where do we stop? How rare is rare? It's in each persons' point of view. I have a Z-28 and I have no intention of gnsahing my teeth when I see one modified.

Cars have been modified since the beginning. Guys pulled the fenders off to save weight and hopped up engines long before the characters on the recent TV shows. We need to be pizzed off at those fellows in 1922 or whatnot as well as some guy building a hot rod.

So here is this car that has been sitting in dilapadated condition for 50 years. It's basically a piece of rusty crap. But now we should get worked up because it is in play again and the right kind of person may or may not be buying it. What if the guy didn't sell it and in another 50 years his grandkid has a pile of rusty parts?

Even if this particular car WAS slated for primo restoration I'll never see it when it's finished. It's tantamount to knowing that there are 200 rare 1 inch long fish in a huge lake. How does it either diminish me or hearten me if I never see them?

When all is said and done, these old cars aren't ours collectively as a nation as special, historical aircraft are. By their very nature they were tools of individualism that spurred roadways to be built across this vast country. They gave every man the choice of mass transit or driving their own vehicle. They gave us liberties that no other nation possessed. They stood for Americans doing things they way they wanted to do them.

But in the end they are just cars. If there's nothing one can personally do about deciding who buys what car we need to just get over it and let it go. Getting all stressed about things we have no control over does us no good.

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

To me it would be spending alot of money on something that isn't practicle.

[Twitch]

I have one oldie as a driver- my Packard. The Z-28 I bought new and don't consider it a rare classic. I'm giving it to my daughter. My Nova is not running but I will put it together this year. Son in law will probably get that. Point is I can only drive one at a time and don't want anything too rare or irreplaceable if I am going to expose it to traffic. Anything too rare takes all the fun out of it as an automobile. It becomes an investment and show piece and ceases being what it was made to be- a driveable car.

I CAN afford it but it is frivilous to acquire a dilapidated old rare rust bucket and pour 50 Gs into it to what..mostly sit? Go to a few shows a year? None of us are in the Jay Leno class so having a car just to have it is not practicle, you're right.

[A. Woolf]

Hey Twitch,

Is my 1917 Stanley too rare to drive in traffic?? I promise you that I am not in the same league as Jay Leno but I do drive my cars (we do both share a passion for steam). The Stanley has been toured all over the Eastern US and in some pretty heavy traffic so I have to be careful because most other drivers will not respect your right to be on the road. But I am not going to let a few idiots completely ruin my fun. Just because a car is rare doesn't mean it needs to be a show/trailer queen.

The problem with too many old car owners that I see is that they don't ever learn how to drive their car and what makes it tick. It just gets hauled around on a trailer and polished to death. None of my old cars are fast but I guarantee you that I have just as much or more fun at 35mph as the guy in the rodded Deuce coupe does at 80mph. And the other thing is that the challenge of running and driving an old car well is a lot more satisfying than going down the interstate with the A/C blasting and the stereo cranked up loud in a car that looks old but lost its soul with the billeted transplants that are the modern rod. I can go fast and ride in comfort in any 2005 rice rocket or whatever Detroit is offering at the showroom down the street. And I don't have to cut up an old car in the process.

Alan

[Dan Marx]

Just to add my two cents worth. While I don't have the Ol' Hupmobile to hot rod, I am working on a rough '28 Essex. BTW, the engine and front axle are going to Florida for a rare '28 Phaeton, the seats went to Quebec City, Canada, the horn and steering wheel went to Saskechewan, Canada, the steering gear box and brake parts are in a car in California, and I still have some wood wheels if you might be interested. The car was not woth restoring back to original. However, every one of the people mentioned are real happy!! At 6'1" and 250+ pounds, I will feel safe and comfotable driveing my '28 Essex, that is not quite stock. As far as an AACA meet goes, well, I really joined to get my spaces at Hershey.

[Dave@Moon]

I'm sorry, did somebody say something? I was pointlessly wasting time scouring the world for a "practical hobby" that isn't just a synonym for "chore".

Our cars are doomed.

[nearchoclatetown]

Bob, I took your advise last weekend and went to a vintage race, the Hershey Hillclimb. There was a real Allard and Aston Martin DBR2 that seemed to be having as much fun as you described. I'm sure pics can be found on the hillclimb site. One would think pics would be on the benefit sponsor's site but they aren't.

[Twitch]

Alan- I'd love to have your vehicle but I'd personally be scared to death to drive it in traffic in the environs of Los Angeles. A 1950 Packard can be replaced pretty easily but not a 1917 Steamer! But as I said, having multiple old drivers presents a problem to me for attention divided amongst them. Look, the 1917 IS worth having as it is extremely rare and secondarily, valuable. The folks out here driving "hot rods" of any kind are very slow, careful, drivers to the point of being old ladies about it. You should see the exist after a cruise of 100 cars. Look like Boca Raton on bingo night.

Dave- thinking about what else could be done to keep original cars original. It mostly comes down to the owner. Let's say you have a house to sell. You've lived in your neighborhood a long time and like your neighbors. You tell the real estate person "please don't show it to people with a horde of kids as everyone around here is retired." Or conversely "a retired couple would not find this neighborhood soothing with all the children- please don't sell to them." OK in days gone by it was a color thing but realtors generally went with the seller's wishes. You get the picture. IF the owner of a Chandler or any car desires to sell it HE needs to screen his buyers not the car community watching auctions. If the car was kept stock, even though deteriorating for decades, I would figure the seller had the feeling that it should be restored to stock condition. Yeah, maybe with Ebay this isn't practical but in the face to face world of buyer and seller it is. You can refuse to sell anything to anyone. While you can't refuse to sell your house to someone anymore due to the laws you can refuse to sell your car!

So it begins with the seller IF he has any dedication at all to preserving original examples of cars. Or if he just has the need for greed, all bets are off. I sure wouldn't sell my Packard to some dope who commented, "this will look cool with the top chopped." So why would someone else? The answer is they are worse than the hot rodder that so many people here distain. They're like a father selling his daughter into prostitution! Why keep a car 80+ years and then sell it to a rodder? There's your culprit. Look around. It's a fellow club member.

The vast majority of modified cars done in the past were done from pretty rough example most of the time. As everyone can agree with cars modified 30+ years ago it is silly to hold the modifier responsible as some kind of war criminal for fixing up "old cars." Dave if you are sure that today rodders are plundering good condition examples of rare classic cars i still need to ask what the hell is wrong with the sellers? They must be prostitutes in it for the money involved.

Frankly the whole idea of building a hot rod has always been to buy the basics cheap and go from there. It does not make any sense for someone to purchase a running classic at $20,000 and then put $40,000 into completely modifying it thereby using only a fraction of the original parts! I really can't believe people are that foolish.

The rodders I talk to at cruises most all got their cars parts in derelict condition. A 33 Ford with fenders rusted through in huge sections, all the instruments pilfered, engine gone or frozen, rusted out floors, cowls and chassis in so-so shape. Many old cars were stripped to keep others running half a century ago and you couldn't even call the remains a real "parts car."

One guy is going to sell his chassis, which was pretty good, to a collector and spent about $7000 to upgrade to a modern one. A 39 Ford found all there but engine frozen. Guy spent beaucoup bucks bringing it back to life but the half way through he was offered free a modern V8 and tranny. A replcement instrument insert with modern gauges, custom upholstery, paint and nice wheels is all that make this car non stock. He still has the original flathead that he was going to use retro style with 3 dueces if hes sells the car.

A 1957 Chevy 4 dr sedan outwardly 100% stock has an undetectable to most, 350 engine mated to the powerglide. Why? Cost of rebuilding the 283 vs. installing a ubiquitous and cheap 350. The 283 is in the garage if he ever sells the car. It's a daily driver too.

1937hd45- truly when I'm gone my cares about possessions of this world will be over. My kids says she'll keep the Packard as is. If she doesn't i ain't gonna effect me none! Worrying about what's going to happen after you die is only relevant in insurance discussions. How many times have you heard someone say "I'll get $100,000 when I die." Really?

I'm STILL wondering what other class of car will boost participation and viewers in Florida better that hot rods.