Guest Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 Well - some of you guys warned me.<P>I removed my water pump today, but one of the small bolts snapped off. Luckily, once the head was gone it did not hold the pump in place and I was able to get the pump out.<P>So now I have a stud sticking out of the block with about 1/2 inch on it. It seems like there is enough of the stud so that I can remove it by a method other than drilling. Do they sell anything that works for cases like this ??? In truth, I can probably install the new pump and just ignore that missing bolt (maybe put some extra perma-tex there !) but I'd like to get it out and do it right! Any suggestions ??<P>On another note - my car is not factory A/C.<BR>I ordered the non-ac pump from Napa and the impeller is different than the one that just came out of my car. The new one from Napa has a "three arm star" and my old one has a "five arm star". The part number stamped into the old one is 30473. Can someone tell me if that is the p/n for an a/c or non-a/c pump. The car is a 1963 LeSabre - 401 - 2bbl - High Compression.<P>Thanks in Advance<P>Ira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Guy Posted January 26, 2002 Share Posted January 26, 2002 If you soak the stud sticking out with a good penetrating oil for a day or two, then every time you walk by the car ,you tap on the end of it with a small hammer , it will loosen up and come out with channel lock pliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 Thanks.<P>I bought a can of PB Blaster and sprayed last night. It's not loose yet but I'll keep trying.<P>Do you think I can JB Weld the head back on and get it out with a wrench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I guess everybody has their own remedy. It has happened to me a few times. Soak it with the PB Blaster as stated in the prior post, wait a day, then put vice-grips on it and try to move it back and forth. While I never tried it, I don't tnink the JB Weld will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I haven't gotten it off yet.<BR>The guy in Pep Boys (I know - Chain - but the guy at my local one is an old cars kind of guy and it makes a big difference) had a great idea.<P>He said that if there is enough stud sticking out that I can put two nuts on and then lock the inner one against the outer one and twist it off with an open end wrench. Sounds like it should work. I just tried but I cannot get two std size 1/4" nuts on .. esp since the threads are a bit stripped from the vise grips. I am going to go to home depot to see if they sell thinner 1/4 inch nuts.<P>Wish me luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 I specific tool, a stud extractor, can be purchased from a good tool store.<BR>They grip the remaining stud and use a 1/2 drive.<P>The stub broke because its rusted or the bit sticking out was rusted and weakened.<P>What ever method you use, WD40 or similar, over several days is needed (like the old guy suggested) Otherwise you will break it flush with the block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86 2dr.ltd Posted January 27, 2002 Share Posted January 27, 2002 Keep taping on it. Then use heat. Even if its a propane torch. Heat the casing around the stud. Determine the depth the stud is left in casing by one of the bolts that didnt break. Heat, heat, heat. Its the only thing that that corrosion will surrender to. You'll be surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 I'm gonna keep tapping - as suggested - and keep spraying with pb blaster.<P>I did get thinner nuts at home depot and have two of them on the stud now. I'm going to give the oil more time to work - then I need a 7/16 ignition wrench to get the back bolt only (unbelievable - I have every size around 7/16 but not 7/16 - Murphy strikes again). I think it will work with the 2 nuts. I had never thought about that !!! It's brilliant!<P>Hoping in NY !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest COMPACTBC Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 When you get the wrench on the stud, DON'T USE BRUTE FORCE on the wrench, tap it with a hammer many times (like an impact wrench would do)you will find this method will work a lot better. Try going both ways if it doesn't start to move when you go to the left. <p>[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: COMPACTBC ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 the previous ideas are ok but, the heat works the best on aluminum. as you heat the aluminum work the bolt back and forth, use the two nuts as you have them set up now and work the bolt. take your time don not rysh it.good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 If your two nut method does not work, you can weld the next size nut to the stud.<BR>Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSMAG Posted January 28, 2002 Share Posted January 28, 2002 Don't use heat! You may melt the aluminum timing cover and then you are hosed. Unless you are very skilled in aluminum work, you may overheat the cover. Keep using PB Blaster and tapping on it. If it doesn't work, try an easy out. Several heads broke off of mine and I ended up using a different cover. With only one broken, the water pump probably will not leak. Good lick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86 2dr.ltd Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 When using heat always use common sense. Aluminum expands with heat also. It melts with extreme heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest COMPACTBC Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 What is all this talk about aluminum? The man said the bolt broke off in the block. Last time I checked the '63 Buick 401 engine had a cast IRON block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Don't use an easy-out. If it breaks, and it does not take to much torque to make it break, you will never get the remains out. It's a hardened steel, harder than a drill bit. I'm not familiar with the 401 on a 63 but you can apply as much heat as you want to the block, but if the stud is aluminum you should be safe applying a little heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Sorry - It's not the block - I'm learning as I go here! It's broken off in the front cover which is Aluminum.<P>I've been spraying the pb and tapping.<BR>No Luck.<BR>The 2 bolts thing didn't work because the threads are a bit stripped now from all the tapping jiggling with the vise grips.<P>If it doesn't free up I may try and install the pump with the 11 remaining bolts and see if I get lucky! Unfortunately (Murphy again) the one that is broken looks like it is in a particular place on the pump that is relatively far from the other bolts so this may be an issue.<P>Meanwhile I'll be spraying PB and tapping. Unfortunately the weather in NY is going to turn cold again soon and I'll be freezing - oh well !<BR> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Riviera Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 Put the thing back together and seal with permatex if you cant break it loose. One of two things will happen. #1 If will be fine and end of story. #2 It will leak and you will need to pull the pump - next pull the timing gear cover and bring the cover to a machine shop and have them drill and tap. While they are removing the remains of the bolt you can check the timing gear and chain and replace if needed. You will need a big socket for the balancer bolt 1 Inch? and a long bar or pipe to get it loose. You will need to get a gear cover gasket set. Any other questions - rivsrus1@cox.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2002 Share Posted January 29, 2002 This is better than Survivor!<BR>I don't mean to make light of your problem, Ira, but I have to say this is really interesting - thanks for keeping us informed. (Reminds me of all the times I was under, over or inside an engine room doing something to undo something I shouldn't have done in the first place). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUICK RACER Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 Ira, if the broken bolt is on top, you can probably get away with leaving it, if it's on the bottom, it will more likely leak some time. Remember when you put it back together, some thoughts of maybe replacing the old bolts with new or clean the old one up really good, and use lots of anti-seize so you don't have this problem again. <BR>If you are careful with the torch, the heat will not melt the aluminum, but it will accelerate the penatrating oil. Heard some really good things about KROIL, works much faster than WD-40, I don't know about PB Blaster haven't ever tried it. <BR>Good Luck and stay warm! Roberta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86 2dr.ltd Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I'm not there standing over the engine compartment looking at the problem, so I am just going on problems I've had. I have broke a few easy outs, I did not let that stop me. They were removed and so was the stub and the problem was resolved. I have had success many more times with easy outs than the 2 times I have broke them. The 2 times I broke them was my own dumb fault,why? Because I did not use heat to expand the metal or aluminum that had caused the bolt to break in the first place. If a 5/16ths grade 5 bolt breaks while being removed how could one expect a 3/16ths easy out to withstand the torque that broke the 5/16ths bolt. Add heat, expand the molecules, which releases the grip the corrosion has on the bolt.<P>I have made many things out of aluminum and they have been taped and bolted together. One piece I made was two items bolted together with 10-32 machine screws. I could not locate stainless machine screws so I setteled for brass. Big mistake. They get the white corrosion also. I had to take it apart and the slotted brass screws were not going to budge. Before I went and destroyed the slotted head I grabed my little propane torch, licked it a few times with heat and presto out they came and I moved on.<P>The problem your having is a 5 minute problem not a five day. Add a little heat and try very tight and sharp vice grips(after some use the teeth get rounded, a small triangle file can cure this) If the vice grips start to slip stop and add a little more heat and so on. Keep the flame moving and heat the housing evenly. You'll be suprised! Really! When I finally figured out to use heat I stopped wasting my money on miracles in a can.<P>You may want to try your local hardware stores for stainless replacement bolts especially in that aluminum caseing. All my thermostat housings have stainless now. Yes I broke the bolts, yes I used an easyout with heat.<P>YOU'LL BE SURPRISED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I had a similar experience - thats why I say don't use the easy-out. I did, and it broke and the remains are still there. What I did, and it worked, was get another w/p gasket and cut it so there were two gaskets on either side of the broken bolt all the way to the next set of bolts on either side. The bolt that I broke was on the top of the water pump. I had problems with the smaller ones at the bottom, but I jiggled them out with vice-grips. The engine was a 430. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickNut Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I tried both PB Blaster and Kroil...Kroil is great, but PB Blaster is still better. Keep on soaking it and hammering/tapping it. Another method : try drilling and tapping the old bolt out yourself...just make sure you don't go deeper than the shortest bolt that you took out as you wouldn't want to drill through the timing cover. I agree about not applying heat ...I tried it on a aluminum part before and did melt the aluminum...and I was going to be SO careful about not melting it ....oops ! I wound up having to take it to a welder to get the bolt boss built up with more aluminum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSMAG Posted January 30, 2002 Share Posted January 30, 2002 I did the same thing as 86 2dr ltd. I went to the hardware store and bought stainless bolts when I put the water pump on the last time. As far as heating goes, and you read my post above, I'm too chicken to pretend to know when alunminum will melt. For guys that have a good feel for it, great, it just isn't for me. You may cut the bolt off flush and drill and retap yourself. If you do end up breaking an easy out off in it, this will no longer be an option for you. You'll have to remove the entire cover and have it worked on. If it was me, I'd put the WP back on and see if it leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 If you have access and know how, I would heat the BOLT ONLY with a welding torch (not a big cutting torch. This should be possible since you say it is sticking out. Heat it up, then let it cool down on its own a few times. I have done this on wrung off exhaust manifold bolts, and it does work. Obviously, you don't want to aim the torch at the aluminum housing when doing this, but aim from the side. Expansion and contraction of the bolt in the hole should loosen it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Ira did you get it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmartens Posted January 31, 2002 Share Posted January 31, 2002 Seems like the jury is divided on heat. What about this combination--weld another bolt on to the stub that is left--giving you a bolt head to turn--and heat the length of the added bolt. I'm guessing enough heat would get through to loosen the corrosion but not cause damage to the housing.<P>I have not--repeat--have not done this myself--just an idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86 2dr.ltd Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 The welding might work, but welding is red hot at the point of weld and that would be close to the aluminum. I could do that safely but I assume that Ira doesnt have a welder.<P>If someone used a acetylene and oxygen brazing or cutting tip on aluminum they would have to be ever so careful. However if one were to use the hand held propane bottle that would be used to melt lead for sweating copper pipes they would have to hold the flame still in one spot for a extended period of time to melt aluminum.<P>Even when bending red hot steel the flame is always kept moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 I have seen at Home Depot , I believe by Benzo-Matic, a mini torch of sorts. Its maybe 10 inches in length, cylindric bottom and produces a small, but what looks like very hot flame. Anyone know what I am talking about? I've been thinking of getting one to have for occasions like this subject thread. It seems that it would be perfect for heating bolt heads and small enough to get into tight spaces and manipulate. What do you all think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickNut Posted February 1, 2002 Share Posted February 1, 2002 ..going to add ANOTHER 2 cents to the discussion........I would agree about heating the bolt sticking out...heat it (don't get it hot enough to turn color...) and cool it quickly with water, then hit it with the PB Blaster - do this a number of times and include a hammer somewhere in the equation too..... The heating and cooling cycles may give just enough room for the PB Blaster to get into the thread joint and do its work. But I would again be careful NOT to heat the aluminum, just the bolt - and maybe use a propane torch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Guy Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 When you reassemble the unit, tap the holes out and use neverseize or it's equivilent on the bolts and you will never have to worry again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 To Borrow a quote ...<BR>Said the bolt:<BR>"Free At Last, Free At Last. God Almighty I'm Free At Last".<P>It came out this morning. A friend of mine came over. We hammered some, tapped some, sprayed some (both PB Blaster & WD-40) and then with a vise grips ... It began to turn.<P>I will be heading to the auto parts store for new bolts for all holes. No way I'm putting those rusty ones back in. I should have this reinstalled in a day or so! I'm waiting for another warm spell!<P>Thank you all for your interest and wonderful suggestions. This truly is a great fourum!<P>Ira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSMAG Posted February 3, 2002 Share Posted February 3, 2002 Way to go Ira!!!! Great news. Patience and persistance paid off for you. A good lesson was learned here (especially by me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuickNut Posted February 4, 2002 Share Posted February 4, 2002 I agree about using anti-sieze when going into aluminum. Just another note though - when you have parts that need extra "umph" and you can't use anti-sieze to keep the bolts from freezing into the female thread - you can use loc-tite as it performs 2 roles......helps keep the bolt from backing out and it also acts as a barrier between the bolt and the thread and keeps it from rusting together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 You know this stuff can never be easy!<BR>I have been looking for new bolts to replace the old rusty ones.<P>The five short ones (NOT HARDENED FROM THE FACTORY - This is the one that broke) are 7/8" in Length - 20 Coarse Thread. Guess what, they don't make 7/8" bolts - only 3/4 & 1". Some of the other ones I want to replace are 3 3/4 & 4 1/4. Guess again .. no 1/4" increments past 3" or so !!<P>Not that this is a huge problem - just something else to worry about. I'm going with the larger size & some lock washers to absorb the excess length. I just thought some of you might find some humor in this!<P>Argh!!! <P>By the way - why do you suppose Buick would use non-hardened (no three marks on the head) bolts? Seems like a miserable way to save 25 cents.<P>Ira<P>[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Ira ]<p>[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Ira ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 Grind the bolts to length with a bench grinder and bevel the end using same, dress with rat tail file to remove burr and voila', custom bolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 5, 2002 Share Posted February 5, 2002 They are Cap Screws (The long ones anyway). If I grind them, then the threaded part would be a bit short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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