Constant loss lubrication

[Akstraw]

I have a 1909 Maxwell A with a “constant loss” engine lubrication system. As such, it constantly leaks oil when running.  Though I have taken some measures to mitigate the loss, it seems it is just the way it is.  I think that other pre-1910 cars have the same  setup.  Lately, in reading about the one-cylinder Cadillacs, I learned that they have constant-loss systems as well.  I guess that back in the day, the leaking oil was a form of dust control on dirt roads. 

 

My question is, in these environmentally conscious days, how do you deal with this on the one-and-two-cylinder tours?  Do participants just let them drip, or do they use drip pans, or are there other methods to control the loss?  My solution has a combination of catch pans and strap-on ‘diapers’ made with replaceable absorbent linings.  I am just curious what other owners are doing.

[Steven Meixner]

I have a Buick with total loss oiling. I have participated in the New London, New Brighton run for 15 years. I've never seen a diaper on any cars, let her drip.

[ABear]

If it isn't dripping, you are out of oil..

 

I own a 1901 car with a total loss oiling system, they were never designed or intended to capture and hold the oil from the drip oilers. Basically no oil retaining seals to hold in the oil. Straight babbit bearings, oil has to go somewhere. If oil isn't coming from the shaft and bearing, you are in danger of running it too dry on the oilers.

 

Generally when driving, the drips are not all that much spread out but when I park it, it does mark it's territory.

 

When at a open air car show, I don't bother trying to catch the drips. I figure it is no worse than most vehicles which had an crankcase breather system that was open to the air that used a tube that sent all the crank case oil vapors on to the road surface.. That breather tube would dribble and drip condensed oil, leaving oil slicks on the road at stop signs, stop lights, parking spots and garage floors..

 

At home, to keep from oil staining the cement floor, I do have a 1/8" thick sheet of plastic that I park the car over. I add a layer of card board over that plastic and change the cardboard when the oil drops area gets bigger..

[mechanician]

Total loss is a bit of a misnomer.  Continuous addition is more like it, with the new oil usually going to the mains and sometimes elsewhere.  The rest is lubricated by splash (generally), so that oil gets reused and losses are replaced by the oil added to the mains.  It shouldn't blow oil out everywhere.  If it is you are operating it incorrectly (or very badly worn).  Many/most of these have draincocks with standpipes that require occasional opening to drain off excess.  They should leak most right after the engine is stopped and less while running, especially if it has a slinger.  Leakage should be similar to later prewar cars with recirculating systems and no proper seals even including model A Fords etc.

 

Until and unless they give up on petroleum based asphalt, leakage from a properly running car is trivial.

[nsbrassnut]

Some additional points to ponder.

 

What is the current rate of oil loss/consumption in your Maxwell? Based on my single cylinder Cadillac experiences the cars in this period are designed for an oil make up / loss rate of about 1 quart per 50 - 60 miles. If the loss rate is higher, then something else is wrong. If less, you may not be adding enough oil.

 

The manual should specify a recommended rate for oil drip feeds for make up oil to the engine. These engines should also have some form of crankcase vent and should never be sealed "up tight". Some gas and air will creep by the rings and will pressurize the crankcase. It needs to vent this pressure at a controlled point, otherwise the result is the oil being forced out from around crankshaft bearings and other places at rates well above target.

 

The early Cadillacs have a ball check valve on the top of the crankcase. It lets air out, but prevents air from being sucked in. Ideally it allows the crankcase to operate at either no pressure or even a slight vacuum. This way the oil leakage is controlled in the Cadillac by where it will run out the exhaust push rod hole, the lowest opening in the crankcase that doesn't have a bearing. This also maintains a minimum oil level in the crankcase which provides a pool of oil for the camshaft gear to pick up and splash around the inside of the engine.

 

In other engines as others mentioned, there may be a plug or valve to occasionally drain off excess oil. Draining from the bottom of the crankcase is less common as in some cases this could starve the rods if they don't have oil to splash around inside the engine until enough oil has been added to fill any dipper troughs in the bottom.

 

I have seen at least one Cadillac engine where the vent had a plug installed. It blew oil out the main bearings fast it wasn't funny and created a very big mess in a hurry.

 

And its typical with these cars to spend a lot of time underneath wiping off the used oil after an extended run.

[ABear]

3 hours ago, mechanician said:

Total loss is a bit of a misnomer.  Continuous addition is more like it, with the new oil usually going to the mains and sometimes elsewhere.  The rest is lubricated by splash (generally), so that oil gets reused and losses are replaced by the oil added to the mains.  It shouldn't blow oil out everywhere.  If it is you are operating it incorrectly (or very badly worn).  Many/most of these have draincocks with standpipes that require occasional opening to drain off excess.  They should leak most right after the engine is stopped and less while running, especially if it has a slinger.  Leakage should be similar to later prewar cars with recirculating systems and no proper seals even including model A Fords etc.

 

Until and unless they give up on petroleum based asphalt, leakage from a properly running car is trivial.

This highly depends on the engine crankcase whether it is a open crankcase or fully enclosed crankcase as not all engines of this time period actually have a 100% fully enclosed crank case.

 

If crank case is fully enclosed then you are correct that "much" of the oil will be recovered in the crank case and will be splashed around inside the case to help lubricate the cylinder walls.

 

However, a lot of oil is not recovered even in a fully enclosed crank case, some is burned in the cylinder and a lot seeps/weeps out from between the babbit bearing and the shaft going through the bearing. Enclosed crank cases tend to get pressurized when operating. The pressure in the crankcase will push excess oil and oil vapors right out the crankcase through the bearing/shaft area.. It is amazing just how much oil gets through there.

 

This action actually helps clear out old dirty oil in the process leaving a bit of space for the new drops of oil to take the old oils place.

 

If you were to take a look at a typical babbit bearing of that time period, you would see that there is typically a couple of small reliefs cut into the bearing surface. Those are there to spread out the oil drops over the shaft surface and gives a small oil reservoir for the new drops to sit in and as the shaft turns the oil spreads over the shaft surface. That oil which goes to the outside of the crankcase will eventually make its' way out of the bearing and on to the outside of the crankcase.

 

Many total loss oiling systems will have multiple drip oilers or a central oiler system with tank that sits higher than the engine bearings plus separate oil lines and feeds, no attempt is made to pump used oil back into the drip oilers or tank (wouldn't want to do that as the used oil would foul up the needle and seat of the oilers). Both of these are considered as a total loss oil system as a lot of the oil is not recovered and never reused in the process..

 

Mine is fully enclosed crankcase, uses multiple drip oilers (one for each side of the crank shaft, one for connecting rod and piston pin, one for the cylinder and one on the output shaft side of the open air planetary gear transmission).

 

Mine sort of resembles a Hit and Miss engine but is throttle governed unlike a Hit and Miss and as such, it just leaks..

[Akstraw]

Thanks for your thoughts nsbrassnut.  I think that a major difference between the two is that the Maxwell uses crankcase pressure to drive the lubrication system, while the Cadillac, I believe, uses an external oil pump.

Edited August 25 by Akstraw (see edit history)

[nsbrassnut]

These are the type of things that make early car research interesting and also challenging.

 

For example, here is how the oil system of the single cylinder Cadillac evolved over their production.

 

1903 early models

 

A single sight glass drip oiler that feeds oil to the connecting rod big end bearing. The drip oiler is a simple gravity oiler similar to those on stationary engines. Oil then can also pool in the engine and be thrown around by the camshaft gear to splash lubricate the inside. The two main bearings are lubricated using grease cups. Later excess oil can be drained from a drain plug. Overall, very stationary engine practice.

 

1904 and 1905 models

 

Changed to a four-drip oiler system The feeds are to the two main bearings, the cylinder wall and to the connecting rod big end bearing. Again, additional splash lubrication from the camshaft gear.

 

The oil box holds about 1 quart of oil. It also has an air pressure feed line from the crankcase to the oil box with a check valve inside the oil box to prevent sucking oil back into the crankcase. It also happens to have a second line from the exhaust system to a chamber in the bottom of the oil box so that the oil can be preheated during cold weather operation. Old single weight oil needed the heat to help get it to drip consistently in operation.

 

1906 to 1908

 

Changed again, to variations of a mechanically driven force feed oil system. Four feed oil from a mechanical force feed lubrication. But still set the same few drips per minute equivalent flow rates. So more of a mechanical make up system than regular “oil pump”.

 

In all the years, the crankcase also has ball check valve air vent on the crankcase as well to prevent pressure from building up in the crankcase. In the parts book its listed as a “air valve for engine frame” and used in all the years.

 

As for oil make up rate. There are four oil feeds, with an average recommended feed rate of 4-6 drops per minute (10-12 for the connecting rod). All of which goes into the crankcase. And that much is not being burned either, it would make blue smoke if it did. This is the amount of oil that is expected to mostly exit the engine and end up either on the underside of the car or down on the road.

 

Another reason to avoid truly sealed crankcases. Pressure in the crankcase works again the piston and will rob the engine of power. The only engine design that likes a pressurized crankcase is two stroke that uses crankcase pressure to blow the fuel/oil mixture into the cylinders.

 

I suspect that Maxwell went through some similar processes during their production run also. Where there is a crankcase air pressure line to the oiler there likely should also be a check valve of some sort to prevent air being sucked backward when the pistons move the other way which would then change the pressure in the oil feed tank.  I did go through some old pictures of Maxwell engines and they do show the pressure line from the crankcase to the to the oil tank. Then the oil has to move “up hill” to the drip oil sight glass on the dash before it drips back down to the engine. This process would need a bit more pressure to move the oil through the drip feed than the Cadillac system which is gravity feed with air assist.

 

I still suspect that there should be something in the engine design has a vent system of some kind on the engine to prevent it building up positive crankcase pressure of any amount.

 

I can’t remember off hand if the Maxwell 2 cylinder is the “boxer” style engine or not where the two pistons move in and out at the same time. If it is, then it will want to pump a lot of air out of the crankcase whenever the two pistons come on the down stroke to the center. It would need somewhere for all that air to go or would want to pump both the air and the oil out every crevice in the engine.

 

If the car is going through more than a quart per 50 miles by dripping it out, then something is not set right.

 

Here is an older picture of a Maxwell where the air line to the oil tank and the oil lines out of the back of the dash drip oiler can be seen.

[Akstraw]

Thank you nsbrassnut.  I have to admit that I don’t drive my Maxwell enough to know the rate of oil loss.  When I bought it a few years ago, the concept of constant-loss was new to me.  I have shown the car a couple of times, and have been self-conscious about the drips (don’t want to give the hobby a bad rep).  I would like to take it on a tour someday, and I was just wondering about how people deal with the oil loss on tours.  Constant loss seems to be a “dirty little secret”, or maybe more kindly, a “fact of life” that is not discussed very much in early brass car writings.  Meanwhile, I have been considering buying a 1906/7 Cadillac, and in reading about them, have found that it would exhibit the same characteristic.  I found your posts very insightful, and I appreciate you taking the time to provide all the information.

[nsbrassnut]

I have only made it to two 1 & 2 Cylinder tours so far with my Cadillac. The tours are a lot of fun. But watch for one that is on flatter land. One tour I was on was on very hilly terrain and it took a lot of fun out of the drive worrying on the way up and down some of those hills with limited hill climbing power and very marginal brakes on the way back down.

 

There were a few 2 cylinder Maxwells on those tours. They ran great and went everywhere, just not in any great hurry, but very reliably. But then none of these cars are fast. Once you get it tuned in right you can have a lot of fun on tour with the Maxwell.

 

I certainly wouldn't turn one away if it wanted to hang out in my garage for a while. 😉

[wayne sheldon]

A bit of history?

While researching my early unknown maker gasoline carriage, I read most of the Horseless Age issues from the first one (1895) into the first half of 1901. Fascinating reading for anyone interested in really early automotive development.

We tend to read history, and judge the past by our modern standards. With my limited as it might be background in engineering and the cutting edge communications systems I worked with for three decades, coupled with my lifelong personal interest in history, I tend to view things a bit differently.

In the 1890s and first decade of the twentieth century, most of what we take for granted knowing about had not yet been fully figured out. Articles, updates, and debates over basic designs, metallurgy and chemistry were ongoing for more than a decade! Debates over whether cast iron or steel was better for cylinders, whether intake valves should be atmospheric or mechanically activated, went on for years.

Another debate that showed up occasionally as well as written about in later years historic articles, was whether oil was suitable for extended use? Or should it be used essentially once going through the bearings and then would it break down somehow and be best lost onto the endless dirt roadways? In other words, what we now consider to be a "total loss lubrication system" for gasoline engines. In all fairness, it needs to be remembered that significant refinement of oil was still years in the future in those final decades of the nineteenth century. In those days, most available machine oil was little more than filtered directly from some form of crude oil. 

People's personal machinery was a new idea in the first years of the twentieth century. For more than a hundred years, most machinery was requiring servicing of its lubrication had been steam trains, steam ships, and factories. Most people servicing such equipment were considered to be "engineers". Gasoline powered engines had been around well over half a century by then, but were mostly limited to industrial uses. As automobiles were being developed, it was natural to follow the examples of what had been in use for years before. Hence, various forms of drip oilers and oiling cups mounted on bearings seemed natural.

Total loss oiling was simply the natural early steps of a new technology.

 

As for driving such cars on our modern roads? Frankly, it hasn't been very long since I often complained about my "Detroit designed to leak" daily drivers dumping about a quart a month in my driveway because the automakers didn't want to spend an extra five cents to provide a gasket interface that would actually hold oil in for more than fifty thousand miles. (Typical valve cover gaskets were in effect long skinny funnels literally pouring oil onto the outside.)

Modern automobiles of the recent thirty years (finally!) don't leak nearly so badly. But they still leak some. And being driven tens of thousands of miles most years they will drop as much or more oil onto the roads as my model T will most years. Some tour stops I sometimes carry some sort of cardboard or other pad to put under the worst area of the car, out of respect for the places we sometimes visit.  Sometimes I choose a parking space over dirt or gravel. Depending on location and other circumstances, sometimes I don't bother.

[oldford]

The previous owner of the 1 cylinder Reo I once owned had connected a small oil pump on the side of the engine and was driven by a sprocket off the end of the cam shaft. The drain petcock was replaced with a flare elbow which fed the small pump, then driven to a small reservoir under the seat. The oil was then sent to the drippers via gravity. I never had to drain the sump and  all was well. No runs, no drips, no errors...

 

Frank

[Mark Shaw]

My Model F Buick had what is commonly called a "Total Loss Oil System".  The positive displacement oiler provided 7 drippers that were adjusted to various oiling points.  The oil that ended up in the crankcase overflowed a dip tube to maintain oil level in the bottom of the crankcase.  I added a soup can under the overflow to catch excess oil that could be recycled into an oil can for other applications.  Some of the oil did not end up in the can & sprayed all over the underside of the car when driving at higher speeds.  So, I attached a plastic tube to the overflow that ran to the rear where I attached the can.  

[ABear]

On 9/1/2024 at 7:22 AM, wayne sheldon said:

A bit of history?

While researching my early unknown maker gasoline carriage, I read most of the Horseless Age issues from the first one (1895) into the first half of 1901. Fascinating reading for anyone interested in really early automotive development.

Horseless Age is an great resource for early Automobile history!

 

It is available at a website called HathiTrust.org

 

But I find that HathiTrust search engine to be more miss than hit.. So, I will give a direct link to Horseless Age here..

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000543204

 

Additionally I have stumbled on other periodicals hosted by HathiTrust by accident that also may be of interest..

 

"The Hub" periodical which starts out mainly for Horse Buggies and eventually added Automobiles..

 

Found here..

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100695733

 

Cycle and Automobile Trade Journal is also a great peek into the past

 

Can be found here..

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/012306676

 

There most likely is more, but finding them has proven to be difficult at times..

[wayne sheldon]

3 hours ago, ABear said:

 

Can be found here.

 

Than you ABear for those links. I will try check some of them out a bit later.

[ABear]

On 9/12/2024 at 7:37 PM, wayne sheldon said:

 

Than you ABear for those links. I will try check some of them out a bit later.

Your welcome!

 

Found a couple more interesting periodicals on Hathitrust that might be of help/interest..

 

The Motor World

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/012508477

 

Chilton Automobile Directory

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/012306415

 

Makes me think perhaps I might need to start a thread on old automotive periodicals to make it easier for folks doing research to find the links..

 

One hint I can give to find things on Hathitrust is to use an search engine outside of Hathitrust , enter your key search words and at the end of your keywords add hathitrust.org.