1928 Chrysler 62 Touring - Brakes

[Edgar Larsen]

I've been trying to get the brakes working better on a Chrysler 1928 62 Touring. It has 4 wheel external hydraulic brakes. 
In the beginning, the brakes worked "okay", but you had to pump the pedal several times to make the car stop. We went over all four wheels, and bled the system. Additinonally I changed the leather seal in the filling tank in the engine bay for a thicker seal. After this, the brakes worked very well; the pedal still had to be pumped one time, and i would prefer it being harder, but the car stopped well.
After driving a few days with it like this, the brakes suddenly almost didn't work at all. The pedal went all the way in without even getting a little hard. I also looked at the brake bands, and there was suddenly very much clearance between the band and the drum.
I am by no means a mechanic, but I would love to get some information if someone has any tips/tricks regarding this. Could it simply be that we need to "tighten" the brake bands again? Would this also maybe solve the free play on the pedal and the fact that it doesn't get hard?
I can also add that the car is built in Canada and is right hand driven!
E. Larsen 

[keiser31]

If you have to pump them, it sounds like the system needs to be bled better. Start by readjusting the brake bands so that they rub VERY SLIGHTLY on the drums. Next, bleed the cylinders starting with the farthest from the master cylinder and work your way to the closest one. Be certain you keep up the fluid level as you bleed each wheel cylinder.

Edited May 18 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[pre1939chrysler]

Kaiser is right on. Do you screw the pump tight when the are working and the re

servoir is filled.what does the pump point look like where it seats at the bottom of the can? If it has any pitting you may either make it seat better or replace it.

Are you using synthetic or 3 DOT break fluid. The 3 DOT seems to hold better.

All early Chryslers had a tendency to leak and loose pressure,that's why they used a resivour.

[Edgar Larsen]

9 minutes ago, pre1939chrysler said:

Kaiser is right on. Do you screw the pump tight when the are working and the re

servoir is filled.what does the pump point look like where it seats at the bottom of the can? If it has any pitting you may either make it seat better or replace it.

Are you using synthetic or 3 DOT break fluid. The 3 DOT seems to hold better.

All early Chryslers had a tendency to leak and loose pressure,that's why they used a resivour.

I'll try to take it out and take a picture of the pump tomorrow. How could you eventually make it seat better? I changed the washer to a much thicker sela, and then the brakes suddenly got better. Before there was a leather seal about 1mm thick. There are no visual leaks at all. No fluid is being lost. 

I tried to take off the lid on the reservoir and press the brake pedal to see if i saw any bubbles in the reservoir, but I couldn't see that either.

[DFeeney]

I never quite understood why Chrysler  cars still used the band brakes while the cheaper Plymouth in 1928  used internal expanding shoes.

[maok]

Some of the threads (or nuts) on the bands may have given way, go through make sure they are all good. Another challenging factor is the bands can lose their shape and don't conform to the drum, so you need to make allowance for this.

 

Bleeding the brakes is not like the usual process, ie, pumping the pedal, you need gravity bleed them.

 

When adjusted correctly, they work well in the dry, don't need to be pumped, not so great in the wet. 

Edited May 19 by maok (see edit history)

[viv w]

Start by putting the car on stands and adjusting the brake bands. You first adjust the anchor point this is half way down the back of the brake band, remove the lock wire and screw it in until there is a very slight drag, then back it off so that it is just free, refit the locking wire. Next do the top of the bands, start with the longer side and adjust the band until there is a slight resistance, then do the shorter side. Repeat on all 4 wheels.

 To bleed the brakes you cannot do them like a modern car. First remove the T handle and cap from the reservoir and make sure there is lots of fluid. Next go to a rear cylinder and remove the short bolt from the bleed screw, then open the bleed screw and let the fluid gravity feed to expel the air. once the air is gone and fluid is coming out the bleed screw, fit the short bolt into the bleed screw just enough to slow the fluid, this will allow the fluid to expel any air, lock the bleed screw and refit the short bolt. Do the same on all 4 wheel cylinders and keep the reservoir about 3/4 full.

 Next slowly push the brake pedal up and down with your hand, this will expel any air in the master cylinder.

 Now refit the top on the reservoir and pump the T handle up and down a few times before finally pushing it down , screwing it into place and make sure it is tight. If the pedal is still spongy, let it sit overnight and repeat bleed the system.

 This has worked for me over many years with my Chryslers.

 Also make sure the T handle bottom point is in good condition and seat properly into the reservoir bottom union, as this is the non return valve.

 I have done several cars over the years and have NOT seen any trace of a seal of any kind on the bottom of the T handle, it has 2 steel washers, one with 3 small holes and one without, this acts as a valve when pumping the handle up and down. 

Some final advice, the brakes do lose pressure with use, I had to stop now and again, loosen the T handle and do the bit from pushing the pedal up and down with my hand etc, this quickly restored my pedal pressure. Also be warned these brakes work reasonably well when set up, but in wet weather drive with extreme caution, the bands get wet and brakes are terrible.

 

[Edgar Larsen]

I've now adjusted the brake bands as good as I can get them. They're a little bit off, by means that they do not completely follow the drums shape.

However, after adjusting these, the car is now breaking very well. I've not yet bled the system, i'll have to try that tomorrow.

Adding some pictures of the handle in the tank.

[Edgar Larsen]

I've now tried all lf the above. The brake bands are as I said very hard to adjust evenly. They're a little out of shape. First time the car stopped very well, but they got pretty warm. Think they might have been in touch with the drums at some points. Loosened them a little bit, didn't get that warm, but braking reduced a bit. Still stops pretty well.

Also tried bleeding the brakes. Came out a bunch of air bubbles in the hose i connected. It was hard getting them out by gravity tho. Tried to suck a bit on the hose; that helped getting it out. The pedal is still loose, and I have to press it all the way in. It does get a little bit resistance all the way in, but not "hard" at all.

I also think i need to adjust the screw under the pedal, for free play. Adjusted it a bit, so there is no free play at the pedal anymore, but does anyone have any tips of how to adjust this correctly? I suppose this screw also decides where the piston in the master cylinder engages(?)

After all, I am satisfied with the brakes as they are now. It's no problem stopping and braking in normal traffic. It would just be very fun to get them "perfect" or at least even better if that's possible

[keiser31]

Have you looked on YouTube for any tips? There are a couple of 1928 Chrysler brake videos on there. Do you have the instruction book that has the brake adjustment setup in it?

Edited May 23 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Edgar Larsen]

5 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Have you looked on YouTube for any tips? There are a couple of 1928 Chrysler brake videos on there. Do you have the instruction book that has the brake adjustment setup in it?

I have watched that video, several times 😂

I do have the instruction book. I also found a instruction on this side about adjusting the Lockheed brakes.

The brakes are a lot better now, but i think they're supposed to be better. We have a collection in our town of about 20 old cars, and the other cars with hydraulic brakes from that period do have hard pedals.

I think a lot of the problem might be that the bands are a little out of shape. They do not follow the drum all the way around. No way i am able to have the same clearance all the way around. If i tighten them too much, they get warm. If i loosen them so that the lowest point is 0.010" they don't grip all the way around.

Also, the adjustment screw for the free play and for when the piston engages, is not set up correctly i think

[maok]

I found that the ends of the friction material is what makes contact to the drum when you adjust the bands near enough to spec. What I did to overcome the non-conforming bands was to chamfer (or smooth out) each ends of the friction material in the band.

 

 

[Vintageben]

Just a thought on bleeding the brakes, in amongst some of the literature I have photocopy of Special Service Tools for servicing Chrysler Cars. 
Any way there is this for helping bleed the brakes

[Edgar Larsen]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:40 AM, maok said:

I found that the ends of the friction material is what makes contact to the drum when you adjust the bands near enough to spec. What I did to overcome the non-conforming bands was to chamfer (or smooth out) each ends of the friction material in the band.

 

 

I have now again tried readjusting them. They're non-conforming now as well. Some places i can't get the seeker in between, but the drums also have a small "dip" in the middle due to wear.

After adjusting them now, the wheels turn nicely around, and the car rolls very well on flat surface, indicating that the brakes are not contacting the drums when not breaking, at least not that much.

One thing that does worry me, is that the brakes do get hot. Took a trip without braking at all, just using the hand brake, and the brakes do got hot. It's not like they're super super hot, but enough that it's uncomfortable touching them.

Is that a concern i should do something about?

I tried loosening the bands so that they made no contact at all, but then due to the non-conforming bands, the car didn't brake at all.

It seems that they do have to be slightly in touch with the drums to get braking.

[maok]

9 hours ago, Edgar Larsen said:

I have now again tried readjusting them. They're non-conforming now as well. Some places i can't get the seeker in between, but the drums also have a small "dip" in the middle due to wear.

After adjusting them now, the wheels turn nicely around, and the car rolls very well on flat surface, indicating that the brakes are not contacting the drums when not breaking, at least not that much.

One thing that does worry me, is that the brakes do get hot. Took a trip without braking at all, just using the hand brake, and the brakes do got hot. It's not like they're super super hot, but enough that it's uncomfortable touching them.

Is that a concern i should do something about?

I tried loosening the bands so that they made no contact at all, but then due to the non-conforming bands, the car didn't brake at all.

It seems that they do have to be slightly in touch with the drums to get braking.

The method I used to determine where it is making contact with the drum is by shining a light from the inside, even though the wooden spokes get in

the way somewhat, you can turn the wheel to see all around the drum and brake band between the spokes.

 

You NEED to have as little, if not none, contact with the drum, or do what I did, make modifications to the friction material so does not. It's a compromise.

 

Heat generated will be a combination of how much contact there is and speed at which you travel if there is contact. Remember, more heat more the drum will warp.