Help on Packard Twelve alignment issue

[ramair]

I have a strange dilemma on my 1939 Packard Twelve. When I bought it there was a worn left kingpin.  Of course we can’t just change that and after all we are there anyway ! so several thousand dollars in parts and it is all to new specs.  We had rebuilt shocks, upper bushing, new pins, bushings, lower control shaft hard chromed, new lower needle bearings, inner lower control arm bushings, new rubber thrust balls, all new stabilizer bushing, redid all the tie rod ends and new bearing in the steering pivot.

  So what can possibly have gone wrong?

well we did a rough front end alignment using the old fashioned magnetic caster camber tool .  We ended up making camber shims and adjust the front end to factory specs, drove the car 5 miles, drove well for awhile then started to have touchy steering, when we got back and clamped on the alignment tool it indicated that the positive camber went to 0.  So the shop could not find anything loose in the front end so it was disassembled again and everything double checked, put back together and adjusted to 1 degree positive camber.  I just drove it and the same thing happened again.  You can stand in front of the car and see both tires tipped inward at the top.  One Packard owner said that he had some bad bushings from the major supplier but he could not tell me what, when, where and how it affected his steering.  No one in a hundred miles of me has an alignment shop willing , so I found a shop 125 miles away and I have an appointment in a few days.  His family has had the business since 1947 and the owner has experience with a lot of early cars all though he admits he can’t remember doing a Packard Twelve with IFS.  So any ideas or past experiences would be appreciated 

[tom_in_nh]

Greetings my friend, 

One thing stands out to me:

"lower control shaft hard chromed". What exactly was the process? Was it ground to the final dimension? Measured for verification?

"Friction lag" is a procedure outlined in the Packard manuals. Has that been done?

I suspect a binding issue somewhere. 

I wish I was there to add another pair of eyes on this interesting problem. 

Bye for now,

Tom

[BlueDevil]

Ramair,

 

The fact that your tires exhibit negative camber visually is disconcerting. I have the front sheet metal off my ‘38 Twelve. Let me know if I can check anything out for you.

[BlueDevil]

Any evidence of an accident? There usually a reason for uneven wear.

[ramair]

12 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

Greetings my friend, 

One thing stands out to me:

"lower control shaft hard chromed". What exactly was the process? Was it ground to the final dimension? Measured for verification?

"Friction lag" is a procedure outlined in the Packard manuals. Has that been done?

I suspect a binding issue somewhere. 

I wish I was there to add another pair of eyes on this interesting problem. 

Bye for now,

Tom

Tom, good to from you, after over 250 views I was thinking that no one would respond. 
Oackard went kind of crazy with the twelves and needle bearings , the front suspension has 66 individual rollers which is crazy as the limited movement that these parts travel it really destroys the shafts.  I use a shop that I trust and these shafts are right on and move with little resistance and no slop. I will enclude some pictures of the problem that we discovered after driving it less than 100 miles from rebuild.  When we first noticed the disturbing handling problems and took everything apart these upper bushing seems fine, but since have totally delaminated , the photo on left is the old original to the car bushing, the one on the right is after rebuilt shocks and suspension was installed 

[kar3516]

Ok I’ll ask the obvious question because I’m ignorant of the 39 Packard IFS and have never looked at my 37 Packard IFS closely.  It looks like the replacement bushing is a polyurethane item not at all similar to the original.  Where are the two extensions of the bushing that keep it centered like the original?  Are these two extensions delaminated and worn away?  Is the (now) completely off center set and/or unrestrained movement along the bolt shaft the source of free play which causes the problem?

[ramair]

10 hours ago, BlueDevil said:

Any evidence of an accident? There usually a reason for uneven wear.

BlueDevil, I was pretty careful when I bought the car as a few years back I bought another Packard that had been hit hard on the right front, of course I did not notice it until I saw the inside of the fender wells, the X frame is pretty stout on the twelves being 8 1/4” tall and I believe 5/32” thick.  This car has 30,000 miles on it and was sold in the west and stayed here the whole time.  When I bought it I had it on a lift and the frame had most of its original chassis black and no rust.

body is straight and no bondo. I appreciate you offering to look at your car for comparison and if you do look at yours see if your eyelet on top of the knuckle lines up with centerline of shock arms. All I can say from what I have seen in its handling I feel that as the rubber failed it effected camber and then it became a castor situation, which no doubt changed toe in.  Hard to believe what less than 100 miles of driving can do, below is a picture from the alignment shop when they found the problem, this is taken from the passenger side 

[ramair]

1 hour ago, kar3516 said:

Ok I’ll ask the obvious question because I’m ignorant of the 39 Packard IFS and have never looked at my 37 Packard IFS closely.  It looks like the replacement bushing is a polyurethane item not at all similar to the original.  Where are the two extensions of the bushing that keep it centered like the original?  Are these two extensions delaminated and worn away?  Is the (now) completely off center set and/or unrestrained movement along the bolt shaft the source of free play which causes the problem?

Kar3516, I was wondering which series is your 37? I know in principle all series share the same system except for size and camber adjustments.

to answer your question, there is only one rubber company that makes that rubber/steel encapsulated bushing, to their credit within minutes of my call to them they worked with another well known Packard parts supplier and they sent part out overnight shipping.  I expect to see it by noon on Monday. I am pushed for time as I want to go on the Earl C Anthony Packard tour at Hearst Castle and my alignment guy that is excellent is heading for a vacation in France this coming Friday, hard to believe he is the only guy in the Bay Area here in California that would even look at it and he is 125 miles from me!

the unit has a steel bushing slightly bigger than the bolt and that is pinched between the shock arms and has not moved, then there is a steel shell that requires a special tool to push out or pull into the top of the knuckle as the OD is slightly larger than the bore, so it crushes slightly. Then between the 2 is a rubber that is some how bonded to the two or in this case did not. Below I am including a chart I copied out of the shop manual, I inked in what I thought could be the only reasons why our inexpensive castor camber gauges were giving us erratic readings every time we drove it for a few miles. Of course now we know the answer is B! As soon as new inserts come in I will take a picture and post.

thank you for responding to my post

 

[kar3516]

1 hour ago, ramair said:

Kar3516, I was wondering which series is your 37? I know in principle all series share the same system except for size and camber adjustments.

to answer your question, there is only one rubber company that makes that rubber/steel encapsulated bushing, to their credit within minutes of my call to them they worked with another well known Packard parts supplier and they sent part out overnight shipping.  I expect to see it by noon on Monday. I am pushed for time as I want to go on the Earl C Anthony Packard tour at Hearst Castle and my alignment guy that is excellent is heading for a vacation in France this coming Friday, hard to believe he is the only guy in the Bay Area here in California that would even look at it and he is 125 miles from me!

the unit has a steel bushing slightly bigger than the bolt and that is pinched between the shock arms and has not moved, then there is a steel shell that requires a special tool to push out or pull into the top of the knuckle as the OD is slightly larger than the bore, so it crushes slightly. Then between the 2 is a rubber that is some how bonded to the two or in this case did not. Below I am including a chart I copied out of the shop manual, I inked in what I thought could be the only reasons why our inexpensive castor camber gauges were giving us erratic readings every time we drove it for a few miles. Of course now we know the answer is B! As soon as new inserts come in I will take a picture and post.

thank you for responding to my post

 

I hope your new bushings solve the problem!  I have two 37 Super Eight drivers; one touring sedan and one club sedan.  I also have also have a non-running complete 37 Twelve touring sedan.  If it comes to it I could investigate and compare but a look through an original parts book would be my first step to identify whether the parts are the same for the 37, 38 & 39 Super Eight and Twelve.

Kent

[ramair]

1 hour ago, kar3516 said:

I hope your new bushings solve the problem!  I have two 37 Super Eight drivers; one touring sedan and one club sedan.  I also have also have a non-running complete 37 Twelve touring sedan.  If it comes to it I could investigate and compare but a look through an original parts book would be my first step to identify whether the parts are the same for the 37, 38 & 39 Super Eight and Twelve.

Kent

Kent, I have found 2 different pictures of what the bushings looked like in the past, these could be early Packard or someone’s replacement part, as I am sure you know the Packard Parts book is not only difficult to figure out the names they used for parts, but also there are darn few pictures of anything.  I did spend a few minutes looking at parts book and my 39 twelve shares these same bushings with 1507 and 1607, so your twelve is the same.  I also have a super eight 1603 touring sedan that I drive, it has a few small issues also. I have another 1939 Packard 1707 club sedan that is also non running! What is happening with your twelve?

[BlueDevil]

Here is the 38 front with a new bush on top of the shock.

[edinmass]

Poorly made front end bushings are a huge problem today. Many people have stuff made and have no clue what they are doing. I just did a Caddy front end that when the bushings didn't fit correctly, the SHOP replaced them with cut up heater hose, and gave it to the customer. That is the state of the world today. I find almost no shop that services modern cars had people who are qualified to do an actual alignment. Most .........set the toe and go.........A proper alignment on a 39 12 would take many hours..........and almost no one wants to pay a shop rate of 150-300 per hour to have a truly correct alignment. Making shims and adjustments could easily take 6-12 hours of time. Also, spring sag, ride height, air pressure, worn parts, and loading the seats with weight are all part of properly aligning the car. As to how you set it up, I don't use specifications from back in the day........I set them up like modern trucks from the 60's. I would also be suspect of the equipment you are using. I don't like the magnetic units most people use........I work off the rims..........Ed

[ramair]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Poorly made front end bushings are a huge problem today. Many people have stuff made and have no clue what they are doing. I just did a Caddy front end that when the bushings didn't fit correctly, the SHOP replaced them with cut up heater hose, and gave it to the customer. That is the state of the world today. I find almost no shop that services modern cars had people who are qualified to do an actual alignment. Most .........set the toe and go.........A proper alignment on a 39 12 would take many hours..........and almost no one wants to pay a shop rate of 150-300 per hour to have a truly correct alignment. Making shims and adjustments could easily take 6-12 hours of time. Also, spring sag, ride height, air pressure, worn parts, and loading the seats with weight are all part of properly aligning the car. As to how you set it up, I don't use specifications from back in the day........I set them up like modern trucks from the 60's. I would also be suspect of the equipment you are using. I don't like the magnetic units most people use........I work off the rims..........Ed

 

2 hours ago, BlueDevil said:

Here is the 38 front with a new bush on top of the shock.

BlueDevil, thank you for taking the picture, I see your original bushing failed and the knuckle is no longer in the center of the shock arms, I am jealous as yours probably took many decades to slide forward that 1/2”, mine did it in three days

[kar3516]

Ramair,

I bought the 37 twelve as a source of parts for a future twelve purchase that I envisioned down the road.  Wood is bad but the sheetmetal is decent.  I don’t think the car or the engine has ever been apart and the engine rolls.  
Kent

 

 

[ramair]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Poorly made front end bushings are a huge problem today. Many people have stuff made and have no clue what they are doing. I just did a Caddy front end that when the bushings didn't fit correctly, the SHOP replaced them with cut up heater hose, and gave it to the customer. That is the state of the world today. I find almost no shop that services modern cars had people who are qualified to do an actual alignment. Most .........set the toe and go.........A proper alignment on a 39 12 would take many hours..........and almost no one wants to pay a shop rate of 150-300 per hour to have a truly correct alignment. Making shims and adjustments could easily take 6-12 hours of time. Also, spring sag, ride height, air pressure, worn parts, and loading the seats with weight are all part of properly aligning the car. As to how you set it up, I don't use specifications from back in the day........I set them up like modern trucks from the 60's. I would also be suspect of the equipment you are using. I don't like the magnetic units most people use........I work off the rims..........Ed

Ed,  I have taken notes on some of your threads on prewar classic front alignment. We  spent a lot of time trying to find a competent shop by talking to other prewar classic car owners and other restoration shops, surprise - surprise all the phone numbers I got were either disconnected or the shop specializes in resto- mods . So we used magnetic instrument off the spindles only for the down and dirty check to make sure we could test drive it while we continued looking for a competent shop. I believe I found a competent shop in Pleasanton Calif which is a 125 miles from me.  The shop is family owned, multigenerational it is a medium size shop with multiple employees, the owner is on site and he takes the exotic jobs and personally does them on Thursday as he feels that is the day with less distractions. He told me upfront that the car could take a full day and that he will charge for time and materials. 
I brought him the Shop manual, owners manual, parts manual and my notes on what was done to the car, my suspensions and my expectations. I was happy to pay his time to sit down and read it.

He drove the car, put it on the rack using the alignment system that grabs the rims he then discovered the bushing failure .

  Ed i have heard of this failure before on the Twelve , one old time collector said that he had his shop cut shims to put on either side of the bushing to keep it centered. I would think that once it is chewed up inside that would not hold an alignment and would be dangerous.  My thought was if one started with new one and then made some thin spacers out of polyurethane with a appropriate amount of gap?

 I am also interested in what type of sixties truck do you pattern your numbers off of. The reason I ask is most large pickups and trucks still had straight axles in the early sixties. It would be helpful to know your experience with IFS and how do you balance what seems to be a trade off of road holding, cornering, steering wheel center return and low speed steerability. I do know that these cars are extremely front heavy, perhaps the heaviest. I know you can’t have all four characteristics , so I put it in order of my preference. Packard seemed to go with 1 degree positive camber and zero caster , do you like to keep both side the same or do you shoot for an offset for road crown.  Sorry for all these questions but the bushings will be here tonight and my alignment appointment is Thursday morning. Below is a picture of the shim selection that I had Scott machine up so that the alignment shop does not have to. The second pictures are my John Deere 50# suitcase weights for ballast for ride height.  Ed if it’s easier to call me please do, thanks

  Michael

[ramair]

52 minutes ago, kar3516 said:

Ramair,

I bought the 37 twelve as a source of parts for a future twelve purchase that I envisioned down the road.  Wood is bad but the sheetmetal is decent.  I don’t think the car or the engine has ever been apart and the engine rolls.  
Kent

 

 

Kent is this twelve a 1506 or 1507 touring sedan? This is my 1938 1603 super eight touring sedan and a picture of my 39 non running 1707 club sedan

( if I was Ed I would call it a parts car) hard to believe it was a running driving car 9 years ago

[edinmass]

 

UNDERSTANDING STEERING WHEEL RETURNABILITY

To get an idea of how the steering wheel returns to the centre while driving, we have to understand the contact patch area of the wheels and the pivot point.

Patch area is basically the area of the wheel in contact with the road. The area is the only link between road and wheel. The pivot point is the meeting point of the steering axis with the road.

This is where the physics of caster angle comes into play. Without the caster angle, the contact patch area will be aligned with the pivot point. When the steering axis is at a caster angle, depending on the positive or negative caster angle, the pivot point will be away from the pivot point.

The positive caster refers to the angle with the steering axis tilted towards the driver. When you tilt the axis away from the driver, it is referred to as a negative caster.

The physics of the caster angle plays an important role in determining the steering wheel returnability

With an understanding of contact patch area and pivot point with respect to caster angle, we can now take a look at the exertion of different forces leading to the returnability of steering wheels.

IMPACT OF FORCES ON CASTER ANGLE

When you rotate the steering wheel on a turn, it generates reactive forces at the wheel. These frictional forces at the wheel contact patch area provide the centripetal force required to make the turn or a circular motion. At a positive caster angle, the patch area is behind the pivot point. When we release the steering wheel, a restoring torque helps align the wheel automatically.

To understand better, consider the zero caster angle where the pivot point aligns with the patch area. Since the centripetal force is acting on the pivot point, there won’t be any restoring torque and your steering wheel will not return automatically.

CASTER ANGLE IN WHEEL ALIGNMENT

During the wheel alignment of a vehicle, a positive caster angle allows the steering wheel to self-centre and increases the directional stability of the vehicle. On average a caster angle can vary between 2 to 8 degrees, depending on the manufacturer requirement.

For wheel alignment, adjustments might be needed for camber and toe angle as well

Apart from the caster angle, when we talk about steering wheel alignment, adjustments might be needed for camber and toe angle as well.

Camber angle is usually visible from the front of the car and impacts the cornering performance by adjusting friction and traction of wheels. The toe angle impacts the sensitivity of the steering wheel for safety concerns.

You don’t have to dwell much on the science behind the caster angle. All you need to understand is that the steering wheel does not return to the centre through external means but just due to a difference in angle. This results due to the manipulating reactive forces on the wheels. Also, find out all the signs of a failing steering system to take timely action. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Follow us

[ramair]

11 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

UNDERSTANDING STEERING WHEEL RETURNABILITY

To get an idea of how the steering wheel returns to the centre while driving, we have to understand the contact patch area of the wheels and the pivot point.

Patch area is basically the area of the wheel in contact with the road. The area is the only link between road and wheel. The pivot point is the meeting point of the steering axis with the road.

This is where the physics of caster angle comes into play. Without the caster angle, the contact patch area will be aligned with the pivot point. When the steering axis is at a caster angle, depending on the positive or negative caster angle, the pivot point will be away from the pivot point.

The positive caster refers to the angle with the steering axis tilted towards the driver. When you tilt the axis away from the driver, it is referred to as a negative caster.

The physics of the caster angle plays an important role in determining the steering wheel returnability

With an understanding of contact patch area and pivot point with respect to caster angle, we can now take a look at the exertion of different forces leading to the returnability of steering wheels.

IMPACT OF FORCES ON CASTER ANGLE

When you rotate the steering wheel on a turn, it generates reactive forces at the wheel. These frictional forces at the wheel contact patch area provide the centripetal force required to make the turn or a circular motion. At a positive caster angle, the patch area is behind the pivot point. When we release the steering wheel, a restoring torque helps align the wheel automatically.

To understand better, consider the zero caster angle where the pivot point aligns with the patch area. Since the centripetal force is acting on the pivot point, there won’t be any restoring torque and your steering wheel will not return automatically.

CASTER ANGLE IN WHEEL ALIGNMENT

During the wheel alignment of a vehicle, a positive caster angle allows the steering wheel to self-centre and increases the directional stability of the vehicle. On average a caster angle can vary between 2 to 8 degrees, depending on the manufacturer requirement.

For wheel alignment, adjustments might be needed for camber and toe angle as well

Apart from the caster angle, when we talk about steering wheel alignment, adjustments might be needed for camber and toe angle as well.

Camber angle is usually visible from the front of the car and impacts the cornering performance by adjusting friction and traction of wheels. The toe angle impacts the sensitivity of the steering wheel for safety concerns.

You don’t have to dwell much on the science behind the caster angle. All you need to understand is that the steering wheel does not return to the centre through external means but just due to a difference in angle. This results due to the manipulating reactive forces on the wheels. Also, find out all the signs of a failing steering system to take timely action. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Follow us

What do you suppose Packard was saying about castor when they say “castor is zero, but reverse caster of 1/2 a degree is permissible is that a convoluted way of saying positive?

the million dollar question, which way would you go?

Edited May 6 by ramair
Forgot photo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

Having the car set up to return the wheel is generally what I try and do on the mid 30's and later cars............makes driving the "Big Iron" much more user friendly if one is taught to take advantage of the wheel return. Having set up our late series V-16 to  1 1/2 degrees it returns well. You can get death wobble from too much positive castor, espicially on the solid axel cars. To be honest....I usually experiment a bit when doing our collection cars.....but time isn't an issue and I will often spend a few days playing around with them to get the best driving experience I can find. On your Packard:

 

 

[edinmass]

[edinmass]

I would set Castor at 1 degree positive, and see if you get a wobble. The instructions say to "keep the V-12 tight to the specs." But with todays roads, pitch, and speeds, playing around with it is worth the effort. I would go 1/8 toe in as well. Be sure all air pressures are at 45 in front, 40 in rear. Check your ride heights..........

[ramair]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

I would set Castor at 1 degree positive, and see if you get a wobble. The instructions say to "keep the V-12 tight to the specs." But with todays roads, pitch, and speeds, playing around with it is worth the effort. I would go 1/8 toe in as well. Be sure all air pressures are at 45 in front, 40 in rear. Check your ride heights..........

Thank you I will use that as a starting point, 

What Say You on camber?

[edinmass]

Positive 1 degree.........

[edinmass]

Here is my set up I use on all our pre war cars.......works great, not expensive, and there are YouTube videos showing how to use it. photo is a JN Duesenberg.

[nsbrassnut]

I think Ed has covered the issues.

 

 

Here is some additional information that may help as back ground reference. Please accept this as information and suggestions. I have no first hand experience with the senior Packards unfortunately. But I have been running and maintaining my ’36 120 for over 40 years so I’m not completely naive on the smaller Packards. The 120 models were the first with the Packard Safe-T-Flex front suspension which was the basis for all of the Packard models from ’37 up to ’41 or ’42.

 

 

When I first got mine, I found out shortly after getting it running and on the road in an unrestored state and nearly running off the road during high speed run when it hit a rough spot and started to shake hard. Later when I inspected it closer the front end was seriously worn out after 70,000 miles of use.

 

 

The lower outer pin with the roller bearings wore the roller bearings square and the hardened pins looked like splines. And the shocks were empty and the control arms wobbled sideways from worn out bushings. I did a full front end rebuilt on it back in 1980. So, some of these notes may be out of date by now.

 

 

Anyway, more important comparison notes. The upper outer rubber bushing and bolt was actually two pieces of rubber, each with a flange and washer on the end between the upper arm and the vertical arm. At that time the reproduction parts kit consisted of two rubber half sections, center steel tube, washers and the center clamp bolt. It was challenging to get the new rubber compressed between the washers and into the shock arm to get the bolt in place. And then it had to be done more than once when the alignment was off and the early model required special metal offset bushings in the end of the outer upper arm to relocate the bolt and hinge point. Once set up though, it doesn’t move. Here is a picture of the upper outer on my ’36 120 after 40 years and several thousand miles of service for comparison.

 

The replacement bottom outer pin was made from a shortened king pin from something else wearing out 3 power hack saw blades to cut through the case hardening. Now days there are cut off discs that would slice right through it. The original loose needle bearings were replaced with the later semi caged version of Torrington needle bearing matched through a local bearing supplier. These are a big improvement; the needles are all held in the shell with the ends rolled over to hold the needles in place. No need to deal with loose individual rollers like the original.

 

The lower inner arm mounts are also rubber compressed in steel on a pin that is bolted to the frame. Those fail with time as well and allow the lower inner arm to move out of position. It was a while before replacements were available. I suspect that the twelve has similar lower inner rubber bushings also. If you haven’t already changed them as well, you may want to inspect them to ensure that they aren’t contributing to the problem. Mine had started to fail and one was moving off center by the time it finally got replaced.

 

About 6 years ago one shock failed and needed to be replaced. While it was apart I decided to check and change the Torrington needle bearings and lower pin again. The old ones were still in good shape visually. I was able to get new bearings from the bearing supplier quiet easily. But when I ordered a new lower outer rebuild kit from one of the major Packard parts suppliers, they had changed to using a pin and bronze bushing replacement design instead. This made the lower outer joint similar to the usual king pin and bushing design. I ended up changing mine over with the idea that it might last longer with the bronze bushings instead of needle roller bearings since there isn’t much movement and the same roller bearings end up taking the load essentially all the time. But you need to remember to grease them regularly too.

 

I looked through a copy of the junior Packard parts book and found an illustration of the upper outer connection on the shock arm. The picture below may help show the shape of the rubber bushing and pin design of this joint.

 

Then looked at two suppliers’ websites to see what is listed for Packards of this period. The major Packard parts supplier site information is a bit confusing. Rubber bushings similar to the original design are listed and pictured but only labeled with a part number, not what they are thought to fit or where. Then they also list other upper outer kits with different parts, some with two piece rubber bushing kits some with the compressed rubber with a steel outside, but no side rubber bushing (like the one pictured earlier here).

 

Then checking the Steele rubber site, they list the two part rubber bushings for Packard for this period. Way back the first time I rebuild mine I used Steele rubber suspension parts. I found a listing showing similar two piece rubber bushings that were listed to fit everything in ’39 except for the Twelve. With the same part for the 110 up to the Super Eight upper outer rubber. Perhaps someone may have copy of the Senior model parts book that lists the Super Eight front end parts and Twelve parts to see what if anything is interchangeable. The design and look are so similar I would have expected Packard to have some interchangeability between the Senior models.

 

https://www.steelerubber.com/suspension-bushing-30-0341-36

 

The rubber bushings look right but I can’t match the number to the parts book. Later models I believed also used similar rubber bushings at the back end of the lower control arm where it meets the frame as well as at the upper outer control arm. The ’35-’37 120 lower rear arm has a ball joint with a hollow rubber ball over the end of the arm. The rubber balls are available, when they weren’t, tennis balls were the right size in a pinch.

 

I would suggest considering the idea mentioned earlier of adding some form of spacer on the sides of the upper outer rubber joints. I do think that some amount of rubber on the sides to help absorb shock would be good vs only a solid metal spacer/washer.

Edited May 7 by nsbrassnut (see edit history)

[ramair]

On 5/6/2024 at 6:00 PM, nsbrassnut said:

I think Ed has covered the issues.

 

 

Here is some additional information that may help as back ground reference. Please accept this as information and suggestions. I have no first hand experience with the senior Packards unfortunately. But I have been running and maintaining my ’36 120 for over 40 years so I’m not completely naive on the smaller Packards. The 120 models were the first with the Packard Safe-T-Flex front suspension which was the basis for all of the Packard models from ’37 up to ’41 or ’42.

 

 

When I first got mine, I found out shortly after getting it running and on the road in an unrestored state and nearly running off the road during high speed run when it hit a rough spot and started to shake hard. Later when I inspected it closer the front end was seriously worn out after 70,000 miles of use.

 

 

The lower outer pin with the roller bearings wore the roller bearings square and the hardened pins looked like splines. And the shocks were empty and the control arms wobbled sideways from worn out bushings. I did a full front end rebuilt on it back in 1980. So, some of these notes may be out of date by now.

 

 

Anyway, more important comparison notes. The upper outer rubber bushing and bolt was actually two pieces of rubber, each with a flange and washer on the end between the upper arm and the vertical arm. At that time the reproduction parts kit consisted of two rubber half sections, center steel tube, washers and the center clamp bolt. It was challenging to get the new rubber compressed between the washers and into the shock arm to get the bolt in place. And then it had to be done more than once when the alignment was off and the early model required special metal offset bushings in the end of the outer upper arm to relocate the bolt and hinge point. Once set up though, it doesn’t move. Here is a picture of the upper outer on my ’36 120 after 40 years and several thousand miles of service for comparison.

 

The replacement bottom outer pin was made from a shortened king pin from something else wearing out 3 power hack saw blades to cut through the case hardening. Now days there are cut off discs that would slice right through it. The original loose needle bearings were replaced with the later semi caged version of Torrington needle bearing matched through a local bearing supplier. These are a big improvement; the needles are all held in the shell with the ends rolled over to hold the needles in place. No need to deal with loose individual rollers like the original.

 

 

 

The lower inner arm mounts are also rubber compressed in steel on a pin that is bolted to the frame. Those fail with time as well and allow the lower inner arm to move out of position. It was a while before replacements were available. I suspect that the twelve has similar lower inner rubber bushings also. If you haven’t already changed them as well, you may want to inspect them to ensure that they aren’t contributing to the problem. Mine had started to fail and one was moving off center by the time it finally got replaced.

 

 

 

About 6 years ago one shock failed and needed to be replaced. While it was apart I decided to check and change the Torrington needle bearings and lower pin again. The old ones were still in good shape visually. I was able to get new bearings from the bearing supplier quiet easily. But when I ordered a new lower outer rebuild kit from one of the major Packard parts suppliers, they had changed to using a pin and bronze bushing replacement design instead. This made the lower outer joint similar to the usual king pin and bushing design. I ended up changing mine over with the idea that it might last longer with the bronze bushings instead of needle roller bearings since there isn’t much movement and the same roller bearings end up taking the load essentially all the time. But you need to remember to grease them regularly too.

 

 

 

I looked through a copy of the junior Packard parts book and found an illustration of the upper outer connection on the shock arm. The picture below may help show the shape of the rubber bushing and pin design of this joint.

 

 

 

Then looked at two suppliers’ websites to see what is listed for Packards of this period. The major Packard parts supplier site information is a bit confusing. Rubber bushings similar to the original design are listed and pictured but only labeled with a part number, not what they are thought to fit or where. Then they also list other upper outer kits with different parts, some with two piece rubber bushing kits some with the compressed rubber with a steel outside, but no side rubber bushing (like the one pictured earlier here).

 

 

 

Then checking the Steele rubber site, they list the two part rubber bushings for Packard for this period. Way back the first time I rebuild mine I used Steele rubber suspension parts. I found a listing showing similar two piece rubber bushings that were listed to fit everything in ’39 except for the Twelve. With the same part for the 110 up to the Super Eight upper outer rubber. Perhaps someone may have copy of the Senior model parts book that lists the Super Eight front end parts and Twelve parts to see what if anything is interchangeable. The design and look are so similar I would have expected Packard to have some interchangeability between the Senior models.

 

 

 

https://www.steelerubber.com/suspension-bushing-30-0341-36

 

 

 

The rubber bushings look right but I can’t match the number to the parts book. Later models I believed also used similar rubber bushings at the back end of the lower control arm where it meets the frame as well as at the upper outer control arm. The ’35-’37 120 lower rear arm has a ball joint with a hollow rubber ball over the end of the arm. The rubber balls are available, when they weren’t, tennis balls were the right size in a pinch.

 

 

 

I would suggest considering the idea mentioned earlier of adding some form of spacer on the sides of the upper outer rubber joints. I do think that some amount of rubber on the sides to help absorb shock would be good vs only a solid metal spacer/washer.

 

nsbrassnut,  thank you for taking the time to explain what you did over the years to keep it driving straight down the road, pretty much none of the front end parts interchange with anything other than the 1507-8,1607-8 and 1707-8. I have 2 comparison photos, the one in the bottom is the original bushing and even though it is beat up it longs up pretty straight.  The upper picture is the completely rebuilt front end, every shaft , bearing and bushing replaced less than 100 miles ago with the destroyed encapsulated rubber/ metal bushing.  I am playing with different ways of using shims, the best might be a hybrid approach by using a thin metal washer next to the sharp edge of the outer body or shell then use some sort of polyurethane chassis bushing cut to fit for cushioning.  A few twelve guys said they have just filled the gap with washers, but I worry about road shock

[ramair]

I found something interesting today that I did not notice before. The modern upper bushing replacement has slightly more exposed steel bushing on one side, granted it’s only a 1/16” longer . So as I go to install I think I will put the longer side towards the front which should help me achieve positive castor without a bunch of castor shims, not to mention it will give me a little more gap between front fender leading edge lip. Here are pictures of new bushings, I have been experimenting with different shims, still not happy  with all metal, hope to find something to cushion it.

[edinmass]

It’s crazy issues like these altered replacement parts that can turn a simple three hour job into a 10-20 hour job, per side. Unfortunately sometimes the only answer is to slog and do the job several times till you get it correct. I had a similar type issue on a Duesenberg years ago……….we spent over two weeks getting it to align……….in the end, it was perfect and worth every minute of time. During the process we were miserable. It’s the 10,000 things like this that crop up on every total restoration you do that in the end drives you insane. At least, that’s my excuse for being nuts.

[TAKerry]

I agree completely with your above statement Ed. I have been struggling with a simple brake fitting for 2 weeks now. I mostly enjoy working on cars but there are times when something like this alignment issue pops up that one has to do a sanity check. 

 

Good Luck Ramair, I hope things get worked out for you soon.

[alsancle]

I just went through this with the brake shoes on our Cord.   It took an extra 10 hours to figure out and fix something that should have been fine from the beginning.

[ramair]

Does anyone have any ideas for a rubber, synthetic, polyurethane sheet? that is about 1/4” thick that I could make a washer 1 1/16” ID and about 2 1/4” OD, I would still have to use a thin metal washer next to the bushing as it has a thin sharp shell that might be a cookie cutter on the rubber

[ramair]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

I just went through this with the brake shoes on our Cord.   It took an extra 10 hours to figure out and fix something that should have been fine from the beginning.

💸💰💸💰💸 = 😡😡 = 🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷

[ramair]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

It’s crazy issues like these altered replacement parts that can turn a simple three hour job into a 10-20 hour job, per side. Unfortunately sometimes the only answer is to slog and do the job several times till you get it correct. I had a similar type issue on a Duesenberg years ago……….we spent over two weeks getting it to align……….in the end, it was perfect and worth every minute of time. During the process we were miserable. It’s the 10,000 things like this that crop up on every total restoration you do that in the end drives you insane. At least, that’s my excuse for being nuts.

💸💰💸💰💸 =. 😡😡 = 🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃

[ramair]

I decided to go with metal shims for now, I picked up different types of rubber sheeting, soft plastic, hard plastic and canvas backed rubber conveyor belting, the only one that looks like it won’t distort and mush out was the hard plastic and it was not going to give at all so the only feature would be prevention of squeak in the future over metal.  I have the measurements of the thickness I need and I am open to suggestions of what I should try, not a horrible amount of time to relieve a small amount of pressure to remove bolt.

 On another note my lug bolts have a very small head and are worn and the wheels on the car which are thick and heavy have a slight amount of wear in the countersink area, not Wollowed out, question was anyone ever traded out the small headed lug bolts for the modern replacement which is one wrench size bigger and the head has the same angle beveled as original, but there is more surface ?

Edited May 9 by ramair (see edit history)

[edinmass]

You need to use correct lug nuts…….we made a run of them in the past. Installing oversize nuts with the wrong taper is a disaster waiting to happen. They can come loose or crack the rim.

[ramair]

Ed, Good to know, I was concerned about one wheel seems to have the wheel bolts recessed maybe a 1/8” farther in than the other three, I have a rim that served as a spare tire for my “parts car”, I will have that repainted Indian maroon and get it pinstriped, that should solve the issue. My son in law is leaving in a few minutes with our enclosed trailer and the Packard to deal with Bay Area traffic for its front end alignment. It’s going back to the shop that quickly found the problem last Thursday. I printed out the shop manual pages that you sent me as they explain about the castor shims that are tapered and how you rotate the thick side for more or less castor. I for the life of me can’t wrap my head around that as I would think just any increase would tip the bottom part of the wheel forward which would increase castor. Thank you again for your help and advice.

[edinmass]

Please put photos up of the car on the rack....I'm interested to see what they are going to use.........I also understand, many shops don't want photos taken of work in progress. With luck, we can see something. Ask for before and after measurements. I usually do two swings before and after just to be sure of results. I also do two swings when I am done adjusting the first side........Looking forward to your results. A test drive up to top speed you drive your car should be done BEFORE you load it to take it home......if you get death wobble, you want to find it ASAP.

[ramair]

15 hours ago, edinmass said:

Please put photos up of the car on the rack....I'm interested to see what they are going to use.........I also understand, many shops don't want photos taken of work in progress. With luck, we can see something. Ask for before and after measurements. I usually do two swings before and after just to be sure of results. I also do two swings when I am done adjusting the first side........Looking forward to your results. A test drive up to top speed you drive your car should be done BEFORE you load it to take it home......if you get death wobble, you want to find it ASAP.

Ed, a good idea, but unfortunately my son in law had other errands to run and when he got back the Packard was already down off the rack. He did take a few pictures of a modern car on the same rack. He also put 300# in front and 350# in rear which stayed in car for the whole alignment, note front height was down 7/16” and back was down 1 1/16” from factory specs.
  Good news/ bad news on today’s alignment check, we solved the major issue with the bushings that were torn loose, however the shop owner was not happy with the rebound or reset of the suspension, he suggested rechecking after the newly rebuilt suspension wears in, he said he was speculating that it would get better, although he obviously has not done dozens of Packard twelves. Now that I have studied how this suspension works I believe that the tight suspension was what was responsible for giving me a different camber, castor and toe in after each test drive last week. The shop owner explained that when the car won’t go back to it’s standard riding height he has a trick to get the numbers close, he pushes the car and rolls it forward and back several times as far as he can on the rack this will relieve the pressure that could be forcing the tires against each other, then  he attaches his instruments and takes the reading, basically we are pretty close to .06 positive camber, 1/8” toe in and unfortunately we ended up with .05 negative castor with 1 shim 1 degree in both sides. The question I was asked is if it is allowable to put in a extra shim as the manuals do not talk about that, the alignment guy was concerned that maybe the centering pin on the thrust brace may not allow for it and my concern is the tight distance between front tires and their to leading edge of front fender. 

  So now I will go back over all pivot points and shock alignment to see if I can find the problem. In his opinion both sides are reacting the same. A list of things rebuilt or replaced is front shocks professionally rebuilt , lower arms, new bearings, shafts done set and shined for proper drag, king pins, bushings shined for proper drag,  new center bearing, set for proper drag and all new stabilizer bushings. Car was test driven on various roads at 55 mph and it handled well and did not have any Death Wobble. Only negative is it only mildly wants to go back to center after a turn and I think we can detect the slow rebound of suspension which appears when you are driving straight and you hit a big chuckhole as it will want to drift for a couple of seconds and then as soon as it settles do it feels glued to the road

[edinmass]

Interesting…….especially the ride height. Hunter Alignment company owner is a world class pre war car collector and a judge at Pebble. Overall the car is reacting like it should…….with almost no wheel return. At least you know you’re in the ballpark and the car has no bad habits. I would expect that if the suspension is tight it will loosen up in less than 100 miles. 

[ramair]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

Interesting…….especially the ride height. Hunter Alignment company owner is a world class pre war car collector and a judge at Pebble. Overall the car is reacting like it should…….with almost no wheel return. At least you know you’re in the ballpark and the car has no bad habits. I would expect that if the suspension is tight it will loosen up in less than 100 miles. 

With some luck I expect to have some more miles on this weekend. If I think it is safe I will be taking it on the Earl C Anthony tour down on Highway 1 to Hearst Castle the following week.  I will report back here and thank you Ed and everyone for suggestions and advice.  Once again I learned more about the pre war era classic’s , how overly complex they are and over built, who would have “thunk” to use needle bearings in the front suspension? Of course the most valuable lesson I never seem to learn is 💸💸💸💸💸💸💸💸

even though Ed has been trying to teach me that there is no way to avoid it!