How many Packard Twelves do not exist

[ramair]

Now that I caught the right audience for my question.  I am the roster keeper for 1938 and

1939 Packard Twelves and I have big shoes to fill as my predecessors collected records going back to the fifties. I feel that there is a need to fill in the blanks so to speak, with some cars I only have a body serial number and the body type, this means we do not even know if it is still with us, could have been turned into a parts car or burnt in a fire. I must say that so far I am impressed with the survival rate of the Twelves in general, as they have a bit of a reputation for making wealthy people poorer when they need engine repairs (see my green car below, might never be back on the road again) I am well into counting and updating 1939 Data and out of 446 twelves produced we have 126 cars on our list or 25%, I know that out of the 1,100 Dusenberg’s made 400 are still with us, Ghost’s also have a impressive survival rate and i would quote the Pierce Arrow survival rate, but I will leave that to others.

So what am I asking? A couple things, one, if you are a twelve owner of 1938 and 1939 can you reach out to me with some details on your car even if you are not a member of the Packard Club, if you want the ownership to remain anonymous that’s ok.

 Number 2, I am looking for past membership/roster books from the Packard club, Packard International and Classic Car Club.

i have a few going back to 2017 and this has helped me with my Sherlock Holmes investigation. So if you have older issues and would like to scan the sections I need or better yet if you could send them to me I would be glad to pay shipping and handling.

[Ozstatman]

56 minutes ago, ramair said:

........Number 2, I am looking for past membership/roster books from the Packard club, Packard International and Classic Car Club.

i have a few going back to 2017 and this has helped me with my Sherlock Holmes investigation. So if you have older issues and would like to scan the sections I need or better yet if you could send them to me I would be glad to pay shipping and handling.

To expand your search a little further also have a look at the Registry entries for Packard Twelves for 1938 and 1939 on the packardinfo.com Website. 

 

Here a couple of links to the PackardInfo Registry entries for '38 and '39. Not many, but some. 

1938 Registry entries

1939 Registry entries

The entries for the Twelves are near or at the bottom end of each listing.

Another area to expand your search would be to countries other than the US.

Example - One of our members, of the Packard Automobile Club of  Australia, has a 1938 Twelve 1608 Bohman and Schwartz Limo. Initially custom built for and owned by Lionel Barrymore. There were more Twelves, but that is the only one remaining in the clubs Registry.

[ramair]

Thank you, I will continue looking in other countries, I have discovered a 38 twelve in the UK , that was a lot of fun for me as I was able to help the owner discover his serial number for his car. For those that do not know, Packard for some reason chose to put the serial number of the car on the firewall using a sticker instead of a metal plate. I suppose they felt it would last the life of the car, pretty sure the management at Packard did not expect or maybe even wanted their cars surviving 80 or more years and of course now we have many 1938 Packards that are registered with their engine serial number as Packard did not stamp the frame or anything else.  However Dave Mitchell told me that on the senior series car, the upholstery crew at the factory would use some of the body serial number and apply it to the inside of door or kick panels with a grease pencil so that the pieces would go to the right car during assembly . The owner in the UK found the panel with the number on it, so mystery solved, I also found a Canadian built twelve, which dispels an old tale that they did not build twelves up there. Currently I am working with a restoration shop in India on another 38 with a very unique brass plate that looks like either a luxury sale company or a custom body shop applied with no state or country to help.  Internet is not coming up with anything, yet! “the games a foot, Watson”

[Ozstatman]

Ramair, Send me a Private Message with your email address and I'll forward you a couple of stories I did about a couple of 38/39 Twelves when they arrived in Australia. The stories contain  bit of background on the cars and their ownership.

[edinmass]

The survival rate for the late 12's is very simple. No gas during the war. Most were parked as they were too new to scrap. After the war it was hard to get cars till 1950. The hobby started full swing by then. We see high survival rates in the late series Pierce Arrow's as well. 

[BlueDevil]

Ramair, I have a 1608 that is listed in the packardinfo site.

[BlueDevil]

Mine has been off the road since the '70's due to aluminum erosion in the heads and timing chain covers. I think that is also a reason they got parked.

[K8096]

New timing covers are available at about $3000 each.  New aluminum heads were available at $5000 a pair.   I don’t know if the heads are still available.   

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, K8096 said:

New timing covers are available at about $3000 each.  New aluminum heads were available at $5000 a pair.   I don’t know if the heads are still available.   

 

 

Yes, and yes.......covers were 3500 last time I checked and installed one three years ago.....

[Walt G]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

The survival rate for the late 12's is very simple. No gas during the war. Most were parked as they were too new to scrap. After the war it was hard to get cars till 1950. The hobby started full swing by then. We see high survival rates in the late series Pierce Arrow's as well. 

What Ed says it fact, the whole truth. Many collectors do not take in the economic, social and political history of an era when looking at the cars we now preserve and wonder "what happen, why this or that?"  I wear two hats - car historian and state /local historian so research and write about the broader picture of what was taking place. Some friends say I think out of the box - way out. The great depression started with the stock market crash in late 1929 - BUT most businesses did not feel that affect until late in 1930 or early 1931 - sales kept declining and the car companies thought they would pick up again - NOT.

Going back earlier - WWI happened, the production of vehicles in Europe dropped due to "war work" in factories, but the USA didn't get into the "Great War' until it was going on for years. The USA vehicle companies made a fortune on truck sales - Packard especially as they had a direct train route from Detroit to NY City and a major dealership network in Manhattan - PLUS the deep port of NY along the west side of Manhattan ( Hudson River) could accommodate steam ships to transport the USA made vehicles to Europe. All pieces of the bigger/whole history puzzle. Once taken into account or known about it all makes sense.

[ramair]

In a way I am going to do a deep dive on documentation on the 38 and 39 twelves.  This is not to knock the previous roster keepers as I have the upmost respect and admiration of what they did and also taking in consideration that past owners would not provide all the information, example they would join the Packard club in 1970 and only say is was a 1938 sedan with the body serial of 20xx.  Then in 2005 a new owner registers the car as a 1938 sedan with engine serial number A600xxx as the firewall decal has been painted over or the local DMV will not except that number, now the question how many 38 sedans do we have?

so what I have come up with is chart for each of the body styles for the 38 and 39 production that is subdivided between short and long wheelbase. The chart lists for each car serial tag, theft proof#, engine#, original color if known, current color, pinstripe color, interior color, if 39 is it column shift or cane, car condition, radio?, Heater?, defroster?, banjo?, side mounts?, mouton rug?, luggage rack?, front seat leather or cloth?, if firewall tag is filled out what was the delivery date?, delivery dealer?, delivery state? Last date confirmed to exist?, last owners name and contact which if given will not be shared unless they are Packard club members at their option, notes which would be for documentation of past owners, repairs or modifications. I am making up a nice chart on excel, correction, my daughter is making up a nice chart and I am hoping that this will give each Packard a

“ Permanent Record”

  I also have come to the realization that I will not find and speak with all the owners that I have in the registry for several reasons, number 1 is that I have some car records give the model and serial number and that’s it, so we’re do you start in that? Another reason is the owner says they will help and then all you hear is crickets 🦗.

the up side is I have found two cars that we did not know exist and another one that was known but did not have a serial number now it has it back due to some records research

below I have a picture of location of engine serial number along with a incorrectly filled out reproduction serial tag, note above the tag you can make out a few numbers of the unique to Packard, theft proof firewall numbers.  Each body had its on serial number that was embossed into the metal, I am not sure if a lot of people stole Packards in those days, but if you did and the owner had his theft proof number written down he could identify his car even if serial tag was defaced. I doubt it was utilized.

  So my plea for help and some old membership books would be great

[Tph479]

Posting for a friend.

 

Newly manufactured  1932-1938 Packard twelve timing chain covers for sale. Both styles are ready to ship, the 1932-1934 and 1935-1939. 

 

If you have an original timing chain cover on your Packard twelve you should really consider buying a new timing chain cover. It's only a matter of time before you will need one. 

 

Mike Gregory (630) 743-3130 or email grog1950@netzero.net

[arcticbuicks]

theres a few packard twelves in canada of LHD.......RHD were exported to commonwealth countries that were manufactured in canada as to avoid tarifs ,instead of manufacturing them in US with tarifs ,i posted some pics a while back of collector place and 50 or so parts cars he also had outside,and he had one 12 engine and parts in building........have very rarely seen any other 12s over the decades and im always eager to see if the car has the canadian firewall plate......the other packard models are actually around canada but not in big numbers........i only now know of one unrestored .......i have a couple pics of Canadian firewall plates i could send 

[ramair]

Articbuicks, I am curious about the Canadian built twelves. The one that i am referring to is a 1939 coupe with rumble seat, it was bought new by an industrialist in Canada and it is suppose to have the plate.  I have been helping the owner sort out a fuel sending unit and I am anxious to get more data on the car, but unfortunately the car has been up on a lift with another car under it so the owner can’t send me serial, engine number ect. I would like to see the plate as I am unsure if I will ever see the one in the coupe.  A interesting point about right hand drive twelves, there is a twelve guy that is on different Internet forums that owns a 38 twelve and he claims that Packard never made a right hand drive twelve as the parts book has never showed the steering box for one, not sure if he was referring to later chassis with IFS or maybe all since they have that huge double insulated exhaust header in front of the passenger’s side firewall where the steering column would go. Even though it will never affect me one way or the other I would like to know if this can be substantiated .  I have been following twelve since I was twelve years old , now I am 65 and I learn something new about them continually.  

[arcticbuicks]

i will have to dig deeper when i am back ........i did have some info saved a couple years ago and was asking some on here to decode the saved data plates i had pics of.....a couple were saved from cars no more......i was really quite interested in the 1932-1936 Packards.....and 8 and twelves.....and especially Canadian Packards......i have yet to find solid Canada production info .....as for what you say about not being able to find steering box part number/ info on RHD 12 ......are you searching Canadian parts books ....there were some other differences in the cars and materials used etc even the style and totally different parts in the Canadian models,example headlight style on a few senior models ....Canada parts books are so very rare to find ....you can contact the monstrous Reynolds museum library in Alberta .....they will pull up all Canada Packard info for you and send what you want as Reynolds is a public owned museum....the library is not just books archived but also documents,papers,even down to single page .info so well sorted they can pull files up for you in minutes on any year and model  ,they will also give you contact for Packard archives in Ontario and I think you might be surprised to find some good original information .....the place i posted pics of with a huge pile of Packard  cars a while back.......sadly i think he has passed,the place was auctioned off several years ago,my friends bought a  huge amount at the auction and i will ask about the dealership books etc to see what Canada info i can find ,example rhd steering box parts listing etc...... .it is still amazing what is around in Canada.......but the cars i find are usually rather remote........not in the heart of a city.....there are a lot extremely rare expensive cars in private stashes here and there  ,i guess some of these would be considered cars that no longer exist as most ppl do not know of them

Edited January 31 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)