1925 ER Oil capacity

[kiwitony]

Hi I am in the final stages of restoring a 1925 Standard 6 ER Duplex. I can can get the correct grades of oil in New Zealand but can not find any oil capacity information in any of the technical information or handbook that I have for it can anyone help with this information. 

Thanks Tony

Edited May 9, 2023 by kiwitony (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

If I didn't know the capacity I would consult the dip-stick or gauge.

[studeboy]

If it is like the later GE models plan on at least 2 gallons.

[kiwitony]

Thanks for the information on the GE models. I need this information for the gearbox and rear axel as well as the engine. As the oils are not readerly available at a local supplier I need to know the amount of oil so they can get them in for me. Modern types of oils are not suitable for this age of car.

[Gary_Ash]

13 hours ago, kiwitony said:

Modern types of oils are not suitable for this age of car.

Please tell us why you feel that way.  Generally, modern oils are vastly superior to those of 1925.  My 1925-1928 Studebaker service book merely says use "a standard grade of oil from a reputable company", lighter oil in winter, heavier in summer.  In the U.S., SAE established standards for grades 10-50 in 1911, added 60 weight in 1926, 10W and 20W in 1934.  A modern 10W-30 (or straight 30) oil should be fine for the engine.  There are many suppliers of oil made for synchromesh transmissions with brass or bronze parts for your transmission.  The 1925 service manual says to "use a very heavy transmission oil or light transmission grease in warm weather", and fill to the height of the filler plug hole.  The rear axle should be fine with standard 90, 90W, or 80W-90 gear oil.

 

Other opinions welcome. 

[Stude Light]

For my 1923 Light Six, I use:

 

SAE 30 in the engine - whatever is on the shelf as no special oil is needed. 10w-30 would be fine too but I like the straight weight oil better during the hot summer days.

 

90w GL-1 in my transmission. It seems to be easiest to shift with this weight. You could also use GL-4 if desired but not necessary. I tried the same stuff I used in the axle below but didn’t like the shifts as well (gear slowed too fast).

 

600w SPO 299 lube in the rear axle. This is a GL-1 which is fine for your spiral bevel axle.

 

This is a good choice for the rear axle also…about the same weight as the SPO 299 above but GL-4 (has more EP qualities)

 

The heavier gear lube in the rear helps keep the lube from traveling down the axle tubes and the lack of lip seals may allow some leakage with the lighter lubes.

 

You don’t want GL-5 gear lubes as your trans and axle may both have brass/bronze and the friction modifiers in GL-5 with oxidize yellow metals.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

Remember, too, that gear oils and engine oils are rated on a different SAE viscosity scale.  Here's a chart from the Amsoil web site:

 

[8E45E]

On 5/9/2023 at 4:09 PM, Gary_Ash said:

Please tell us why you feel that way.  Generally, modern oils are vastly superior to those of 1925.  My 1925-1928 Studebaker service book merely says use "a standard grade of oil from a reputable company", lighter oil in winter, heavier in summer.  In the U.S., SAE established standards for grades 10-50 in 1911, added 60 weight in 1926, 10W and 20W in 1934.  A modern 10W-30 (or straight 30) oil should be fine for the engine.  There are many suppliers of oil made for synchromesh transmissions with brass or bronze parts for your transmission.  The 1925 service manual says to "use a very heavy transmission oil or light transmission grease in warm weather", and fill to the height of the filler plug hole.  The rear axle should be fine with standard 90, 90W, or 80W-90 gear oil.

 

Other opinions welcome. 

I do know there has been issues with lack of ZDDP additive that vintage cars require:  ZDDP levels for classic cars | Mobil™

 

Craig

[Stude Light]

2 hours ago, 8E45E said:

I do know there has been issues with lack of ZDDP additive that vintage cars require:  ZDDP levels for classic cars | Mobil™

 

Craig

Yep. Written by the people that want to sell you something. Not one prewar car needs ZDDP and most post war cars are fine with current levels that are in the latest oils.

 

I just posted about this in another thread

 

 

 

[kiwitony]

Gary I am not against modern oils and was offered an oil by a local parts shop that was the correct grade but was a modern type of oil that was not the one recommended by Penrite Australia that I have used for other cars of this age in New Zealand. I contacted Penrite about this and the reply was that the oil for modern engines has an additive that keeps the dirt in suspension so it can be removed by a full flow filter. The oil they recommend for engines without full flow filters has an additive that does not hold the dirt in suspension so it drops out into the sump. The only different between the oil for modern engines and the one recommended is these additives.

There can be a problem in using oils designed for modern gear boxes and axels in older vehicles, one of them is that EP oils have an additive that attacks one of the metals in bronze at high temperatures and bearings and gears made of bronze wear very quickly or crumble into small pieces. Years ago I worked for an engineering firm the sold worm drive boxes for industrial drive systems 3 of the oil companies I contacted to see what oil our customers could use said to use EP oils as the temperature in the box was not high enough to affect the bronze the forth one put me in touch with their chemist who agreed me about EP oil for this use,  the problem with the first 3 they were only checking the temp of the oil in the box not at the gear contact point which is much higher.

Modern oils are very good for what they  are designed for but they can cause problems when used as a substitute for other oils

Tony  

[JFranklin]

Bypass filtration works well with modern oils, as does full flow filtration.

[Grimy]

31 minutes ago, kiwitony said:

contacted Penrite about this and the reply was that the oil for modern engines has an additive that keeps the dirt in suspension so it can be removed by a full flow filter. The oil they recommend for engines without full flow filters has an additive that does not hold the dirt in suspension so it drops out into the sump. The only different between the oil for modern engines and the one recommended is these additives.

Oil with "suspension" additives is commonly called "detergent," but that's a misnomer--"dispersant" is more accurate.  However, "dirt" does not only drop into the sump--it remains in the oil galleries/galleys and within bearings, and becomes more solidified over time and resistant to removal. See attached photos of "crank turds" being pushed out of crankshaft oil passages from a 1919 Pierce-Arrow. "Dispersant" oils which hold particulate matter in suspension help the debris to go out with the old oil when drained, and the minor amount in the bearings, galleries, etc. will go out next time or the time after.

 

I run Shell Rotella 15W-40 T4 (all dino oil) in my fleet (see signature) which have either a partial flow filter or no filter at all.  I make a point of changing oil HOT, preferably before their winter nap.  And remember that not all contaminants are particulates to be removed by filters--acids and moisture are contaminants as well.

 

In my non-hypoid diffs, I run 600W steam cylinder oil, Lubriplate SPO-299 (I think) or when I could get it Texaco Thuban SAE 250.

 

In hypoid diffs (visual clue is that the pinion enters at bottom of the ring gear), I need EP and select GL-4 but look at the MSDS of a brand for I-A results on the copper corrosion test.

 

Fully 25 years ago I was about to drive my 1936 Pierce (hypoid diff) cross country and back, and GL-6 full synthetic sounded good, so I called the S__L____ (brand) lab in Los Angeles and spoke with a Ph.D. chemist, asking whether that product might be harmful to yellow-metal components.  When he assured me that no harm could befall my yellow metal, I did a change to their GL-6.  In Wyoming, 1000 miles from home, I crawled under the rear of the car to fill a leaky shock and found excessive heat radiating from the diff.  I quickly found a parts store and purchased a quantity of GL-4 and a drain pan.  I was horrified to see the Dreaded Golden Sparkles in the draining GL-6.  When I reached Des Moines in another 1000 miles, I changed the diff oil again and found virtually no golden sparkles.  Fortunately, I caught it in time, as I've never had further trouble.

[commander Dave]

So now all of a sudden we don't need to use oil with zddp. What about all the pictures of destroyed parts? So, flat tappet engines can use regular oil ? I think I'll keep using oil with zddp because next youse guys might say to use the stuff. Who the heck do we believe. Sounds like the government saying certain foods are to be avoided and next they say they should be eaten in mass quantities. Come on now!

[Stude Light]

On 5/22/2023 at 10:12 PM, commander Dave said:

So now all of a sudden we don't need to use oil with zddp. What about all the pictures of destroyed parts? So, flat tappet engines can use regular oil ? I think I'll keep using oil with zddp because next youse guys might say to use the stuff. Who the heck do we believe. Sounds like the government saying certain foods are to be avoided and next they say they should be eaten in mass quantities. Come on now!

Not all of a sudden. Never have needed zddp in pre-war cars. It was never added to oils until the need arose with higher cylinder pressures, higher lift cams, stronger valve springs, tec. - basically more modern post-war engines. AND it is still added to oils to protect flat tappet cams in appropriate levels. Only very high performance engines need a little more zinc and phosphate for protection.

 

I have no problem if you want to spend more money on oils with higher levels of zddp, I just caution folks not to add any zddp additives to oils already containing zddp as too high a level will also cause increase wear and pitting. 

 

I try to educate those asking for advice as I read all the SAE reports and spoke to the oil experts at General Motors (during my 30 year employment as an engineer there) regarding the reduction in zddp levels to protect catalytic convertors and the testing performed to ensure the current levels  still provide adequate protection for all but race engines. The whole zddp snake oil sales popped up from the industry that is trying to sell it to you using a bunch of anecdotal stories. I trust the work done by the Society of Automotive Engineers and OEMs vs the stories from oil supplement industry telling me why I have to buy their product. Sorry, I'm an engineer.....I follow the data.

 

BTW, this discussion on zinc dialkyldithiophosphates has no bearing on this particular post as the ER has roller cam followers.

 

 

[commander Dave]

Gotchya.  Just when I thought I was doing something right, oh well, what the hay.

[kiwitony]

Hi it's interesting the amount of posts about oil but my original post was a request for the volumes of oil I needed for this car. That is for engine, gearbox and rear axel relying on the dip stick for the engine is not a good idea as I have 3 different dip sticks with different markings and can not rely on the one that came with the engine as what was supposed to be a recondition engine had a lot of things wrong. Such as crack between 2 valve seats and a large rust pit under the meshing point of the oil pump gears plus other things wrong. 

Also the gearbox and axel only have level plugs not dip sticks

Can any one help me with the these volumes

Tony

[nzcarnerd]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:09 PM, kiwitony said:

Hi I am in the final stages of restoring a 1925 Standard 6 ER Duplex. I can can get the correct grades of oil in New Zealand but can not find any oil capacity information in any of the technical information or handbook that I have for it can anyone help with this information. 

Thanks Tony

Barry Barnes in Timaru has had one of these for more than 50 years. I don't have his contact details but if you are on facebook look for Carla Barnes - I think he uses his wife's page. I have sent him a facebook message with a link to this page.

[Stude Light]

6 quarts for the engine. To the edge of the fill plug holes on the transmission and axle. I have never seen actual specifications on how much the transmission and axle hold but based on experience, it is about 1.5 - 2 quarts for each.

[nzcarnerd]

On 5/7/2023 at 4:09 PM, kiwitony said:

Hi I am in the final stages of restoring a 1925 Standard 6 ER Duplex. I can can get the correct grades of oil in New Zealand but can not find any oil capacity information in any of the technical information or handbook that I have for it can anyone help with this information. 

Thanks Tony

From Barry - "My Studebaker Owners manual says, " one and one quarter Imperial gallons or 5 and 3 quarter liters are required to fill the reservoir."

 

 

[kiwitony]

Thanks Guys Now I can be certain   that I am now running the engine over or under full its great to get a good quick response to my last post. Also thanks to Barry for his reaction to the Facebook post. I will upload a photo when I have finished the car.

Tony