425 Engine Rebuild 1964 LeSabre Estate Wagon

[Sonny Butler]

I want to have my 425  rebuilt and I'm hoping some of you may have recommendations on a shop you know that has experience with this engine.

The shop I use in Virginia Beach has a wealth of Buick knowledge, but isn't set up to rebuild engines on 60 year old cars. They'll pull my engine, I'll take it to the shop for rebuilding, then I'll go pick it up.

I'm looking for someone within 300 miles of Virginia Beach, VA.

There are several shops around here, but none with any knowledge or experience necessary.

So, If you know someone that you'd trust your Buick engine with, please let me know. 

 

Thanks,

Sonny Butler

BCA# 50336

 

757-749-3843

sonnybutler54@gmail.com

The best way to reach me is through the forum or email. Feel free to text or call, but sometimes my spam blocker won't let calls through. Thanks again.

 

[tenugent]

I had a longtime shop here in my home town rebuild mine about 8 years ago.I bought all the new parts from centerville auto (russ martin).The mechanic here talked to russ for tips on rebuild,he has a list on his web site on the dos and don'ts of the nailhead.Have about 10,000 miles on it with no problems.Mines a 63 425.

[Sonny Butler]

Thanks. Appreciate the info. 

 

Sonny

[JohnD1956]

 Not that it answers your question directly but,  may we ask what causes the need for rebuilding the engine? 

[Sonny Butler]

Thanks. Appreciate the info. 

 

Sonny

 

It has developed some major oil leaks. I intend on using it as my retirement travelling car and since it's numbers matching and solid, I don't want to take a chance on ruining the motor. I'm also having the transmission rebuilt. I'm not restoring it, just trying to maintain it and preserve what's there. 

[JohnD1956]

17 hours ago, Sonny Butler said:

Thanks. Appreciate the info. 

 

Sonny

 

It has developed some major oil leaks. I intend on using it as my retirement travelling car and since it's numbers matching and solid, I don't want to take a chance on ruining the motor. I'm also having the transmission rebuilt. I'm not restoring it, just trying to maintain it and preserve what's there. 

Another question if I may, have you had a compression test done? 

[Sonny Butler]

I have not

[EmTee]

How many miles on the engine?  Has the oil pressure been measured?  A compression test -- or better yet a leakdown test would be a very good thing to do first.  It will give a good indication of the engine's condition.  Even if you still proceed with the rebuild, the result would be useful to the rebuilder in that it would provide a 'heads-up' regarding things to look for when the engine is disassembled.

 

If those tests show the engine is still operating within specification, it will save a lot of time, effort and expense.  If it's good, you could still pull the motor and just clean and reseal it.  Clean oil pan, maybe check a couple of rod and main bearings.  Install new crank seals, oil pump and timing chain w/ sprockets.  Rebuild carburetor and distributor.  While the engine is out, detail the engine compartment.

 

The Hippocratic Oath applies here - "first, do no harm"...

[Sonny Butler]

Thanks. That makes perfect sense. I appreciate the advice. 

[JohnD1956]

Emtees advice is spot on.  If it ain't broke, leave the happy engine family pieces be.  If the oil leak appears at the rear passengers side, i believe you will find the sender for the oil pressure light there. It may just be that sender needs to be replaced. 

[drhach]

I would add inspect the timing chain gears to that list. 

[NTX5467]

A while back, there was a "what should I do" thread on fixing something in an engine.  There were the "do the minimum to get it fixed" comments and also the "ONE thing leads to another, ending with a full re-machined rebuild" situation.  Doing valve cover gaskets and the oil pressure sending unit are "top side" operations, but a leaking oil pan gasket can be worse.  IF the engine is still idling smooth, then you can probably presume that the compression is still good, with no burnt valves or similar.

 

What is the oil consumption?  That can be a few things, namely wear on the oil rings around the pistons AND the valve guides/seals in the cyl heads.  Disassembly required to do those things.  IF you do bronze heli-coil valve guies and updated valve seals, along with a good valve job, then they will be good for longer than you might drive the car.  To address the oil "coming up from the bottom", that can mean new pistons and rings, usually.  With a good deck-plate bore/hone job and new rings gapped to the cyl size, with modern oils, that should put ultimate durability a good bit past the 100K mile mark, I suspect.

 

Now, for the INSURANCE part of things, a Cloyes roller timing chain can last past 450K miles, from my experiences.  Oil pump?  Just make sure it pumps oil, no high-press or high-volume variations, just OEM stock will be fine.  At normal pressures.

 

In order to get the pistons out for the re-bore and hone operations, the crankshaft will need to be removed.  Which means getting it polished/cleaned/vatted and new OEM-spec bearings.  Just normal OEM-spec stuff, for what you're going to be doing.

 

If the block is going to be disassembled, might as well get it vatted, cleaned. and re-painted.  Knocking out the freeze plugs so that all of the accumulation in the rear cyls' area can be cleaned out.  Better coolant circulation will usually result.  All brass freeze plugs, too.

 

With due respect, doing all of the diagnostic tests can be good, so that ultimately you (the customer) might have a better idea of what is needed, BUT when the engine is disassembled, it will be obvious to an experienced engine builder what IS needed and why it got that way.  Even if the engine was well-maintained, that will be obvious, but so will normal wear.  Even if the drive belts were maintained "too tight", too!

 

As to rubberized-cork gaskets, they will ALL eventually leak.  No matter how much weatherstrip adhesive is or is not used on them.  With time, the lighter factions of the motor oil will seep through the cork.  Wicking action.  When that starts, it cannot be stopped, so new gaskets will be needed.  TO PREVENT THE WICKING . . . coat the OEM-spec gaskets with a skin-coat of black high-heat sealer, on ALL sides, letting it cure for 24 hours prior to installation.  This seals the gasket from the oil in the first place, so NO leaks/seeps, from my experiences.  Makes things come apart cleaner, should disassembly be needed later, too!!!  Do any paper gaskets this way too.  Otherwise, the wicking which caused the earlier leaks will happen again, even with flat valve cover sealing surfaces.

 

There should be a modern lip-seal rear main seal to replace the OEM rope seal, too.

 

As @Old-Tank discovered many years ago, finding an engine shop that will build the Buick Nailhead "as a Buick" is built, things will work better in the long run.  Hopefully, there is somebody in your region that might meet that criteria!

 

At the very least, the "top-side" items (valve cover gaskets and oil pressure sender, etc.) can be done individually.  There might be a procedure to do the oil pan gasket without pulling the motor, which would also be a good time to do the motor mounts.  Maybe even a new rear main seal, too?  If the oil pressure is still good, you can probably presume the crank bearings are still good, too.  But DO change the timing chain!!!

 

Then, if the oil consumption gets to be an issue, as variable as that might be, THEN start looking around for getting a quality rebuild on the motor.  As a last resort, of sorts.

 

So . . . one thing can lead to another, unfortunately.  Just be ready for where ever things might end up.

 

But when done, DO enjoy where ever your Buick might take you AND "the ride" getting there!

 

Sorry for the length,

NTX5467

Edited November 24, 2022 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Sonny Butler]

Thanks to everyone for all the great feedback. You've given me a lot to think about, and provided a lot of first hand knowledge.

 

A little about the car:

I've had it since 2019. It was originally out of Texas, found it's way to South Carolina then to me after about 2 months in SC. I had been following it for about 2 years. My dad had one identical to it when I was a kid that he bought new. Unfortunately, someone in Texas thought it would be a good idea to add "patina" to a fairly good paint job....with all due respect to those who like fake patina. Went to SC, checked it out and bought it. The car was straight, all there, original,  numbers matching and solid. Currently has 116,829 miles on it. Based on the overall condition I feel comfortable with the mileage. It had a 1998 Texas inspection on it so I'm going to assume it sat inside for about 20 years. As far as I can tell, there was 1 owner before the patina lovers, then it passed through two dealers then to me.

 

I had it shipped, drove it to the shop, they tuned it up, did all the maintenance and any repair to make sure it could be driven without doing any damage to it. In VA if you have antique tags you don't need a yearly state inspection, but I don't drive any of my classics without one. So it was safety inspected.

 

Anyway, drove the Buick some in 2019 and ordered the correct interior from SMS. I pulled carpets and door panels and did repairs and refurbished floors and door mechanicals as needed. Covid arrived, so my opportunity to have any paint work was put on hold. I was in line at my upholstery shop for almost a year so when the interior arrived from SMS I took the opportunity to take my spot or I'd lose it.  A totally backwards choice as far as the process should go, but I was also tired of sitting on pillows so I could see over the steering wheel. 

 

Fast forward.......The interior is incredible. Continued stripping all the stainless and chrome and doing prep work for a repaint. Replaced all the weather stripping and trying to locate someone who can pull the windshield and long 1/4 side glass and replace gaskets. Regular glass shops don't want to touch it because of the age. And at 70 years old and with limited use of my left arm, I'm not even going to attempt it.

 

So, I've been driving it around town some for about a year and loving it. I have to allow extra time to talk to people who approach me in parking lots, stoplights, the gym etc. Everyone has a memory and and it rally intrigues kids who grew up with mini vans and suv's.  

 

That brings us to the current time with the leaks. All the information from you guys is really appreciated. Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge to follow up with your suggestions, but I'll give them to the shop to do and go from there. As I said earlier, they're a high volume shop with a lot of commercial contracts and insurance work, but they'll work on my cars as time permits. I've known the family for over 50 years and trust them with my cars.

 

The Buick will be an ongoing project and I plan on keeping it as original as possible and stock. Like I said earlier, I'm going to drive it and enjoy it. When the time comes, I've left instructions that all my cars only go to verified collectors. 

My goal for 2023 is to drive it to Hershey in October. If its ready, I'll show it in the driver participation class. It won't be a show car or historic preservation, so it will fit in DPC.

 

I also have an original 63 Cadillac Sedan de Ville 4 window  (Mom had one) and a 90 Lincoln Mark VII with 35000 miles that I show in AACA and Lincoln National meets. It has an AACA first junior badge and was best touring Lincoln at the Lincoln eastern national meet in 2021. Going for AACA senior in 2023. BTW, I drive it to shows and compete with restored, trailered cars. So far, the shortest distance to a show has been 6 hours. I think the journey is as good, if not better as the award.

 

I've attached a few pictures. The engine pic I attached to the original post is how it was when it arrived. Sorry for being so long winded. I'll keep you posted.

 

Thanks again,

Sonny

[60FlatTop]

19 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

There might be a procedure to do the oil pan gasket without pulling the motor,

 

My first thought is to get under there with a 1/4" drive socket and tighten the pan bolts.  You can even reach the four above the cross member that way.

 

The thorough testing for condition on a running engine can save you a lot of unnecessary effort and expense.

 

And consider something I learned when I was in my 20's. For every $1,000 more that I am willing to spend on a car I can buy about $4,000 of the previous owner's work. That math has been working for decades.

 

[EmTee]

That interior is spectacular!  116K mi is about the point where you may start to think about rebuilding the engine, however, as I said before some quantitative checks should be done to see whether a rebuild is really needed yet.  How does it run?  Are the leaks your only complaint?  Redirect the engine rebuild funds to make the outside look as nice as the inside...?

[JohnD1956]

What a beauty!  A SUPER car!  Here I would digress from EmTee.  116K is basically nothing on a Buick engine. If it has been sitting for 20 years then you cannot go wrong trying new valve cover and oil pan gaskets first. 

We can also talk about that transmission too.  If you have not had it pulled yet, let's talk about what you sense is wrong with that, as the Dynaflow from that era suffers mostly from an undeserved reputation. 

[EmTee]

It looks like CARS has your brake pedal pad.

 

https://oldbuickparts.com/