36 Accelerator Pump

[pont35cpe]

9 hours ago, Rock10 said:

No, #31 is right up against the venturi.

I might have to buy a bucket of carb cleaner and let it soak.

The power valve is out and I've tried to pack the well a blow compressed air in. It just blows the packing out.

I wouldn't think there would be any major constriction there so I guess it must be clogged with something.

There was some grainy like substance around the power valve and in the well when I took it apart.

The car had sat for 3-4 weeks this summer while we changed the torque ball seal. I wonder if there was water in the carb that evaporated and left the crud.

I don't know.

My experience, Ethanol gas turns to goo, stops everything up.

[Rock10]

1 hour ago, carbking said:

The pump discharge tubes CAN be removed, but you have maybe a 90 % probability of ruining the tubes in removal; so ......................last resort only.

 

DO NOT GET TRICKED INTO BUYING THE REPROS AVAILABLE FOR THE EE-1 FORD CARBS, AS THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE WITH BUICK.

 

More than likely, there is a clog of fuel residue in each tube. The I.D. of the tube is roughly a number 60 drill, pretty small.

 

Jon

I won't remove them. I think I'll try a soak in carb cleaner first.

[EmTee]

Do you have an ultrasonic cleaner?  (I think I need to put one to my Christmas list...  )

[Rock10]

No. I may have to look up a price.

[Oldtech]

Sometimes you can push a small wire down small tubes to sort of feel what is in them and with luck maybe push it out. The wire off a parts tag works for that.

[Rock10]

I have a small wire, just can't get it in anywhere.

[Rock10]

Well, I soaked it in carb dip twice, soaked it in solvent, soaked it in hot soapy water, used a shop vac to try to suck the blockage out

and I still only have a small trickle out on one side under pressure.My guess is the blockage is in the little copper/brass tubes.

Would an ultrasonic cleaner dislodge stuff stuck in there?

[Bloo]

13 minutes ago, Rock10 said:

Well, I soaked it in carb dip twice, soaked it in solvent, soaked it in hot soapy water, used a shop vac to try to suck the blockage out

and I still only have a small trickle out on one side under pressure.My guess is the blockage is in the little copper/brass tubes.

Would an ultrasonic cleaner dislodge stuff stuck in there?

Maybe. I don't have enough experience with them to guess. Lacking one of those, I'd probably soak it in Methyl Ethyl Ketone for about a week and hope the goo turns to powder. Then try the hot soapy water and or the solvent again. Trouble is, MEK is getting really hard to find. So far, I am not impressed with substitutes. Its also extremely volatile, so you need something like a metal paint can with a lid to put it in or it will just evaporate. I don't know if it would work, but you have already tried the obvious things.

[Rock10]

Would that hurt the carb?

I was tempted to leave it in the carb dip overnight, but it warns that some carbs may be damaged.

Don't want to destroy it just yet.

[Bloo]

MEK won't do anything to metal. It's just a solvent, although a really effective one. Remove anything that isn't metal. It leaches oil out of everything. ALL the oil. Don't get it on your skin, it will crack afterward. Often oil based carbon deposits, even ones that defy chiseling, will turn to brittle powdery crud resembling dry dirt, which will then clean up with something else. I don't know what it would do to gasoline based varnish, but I'll bet it would utterly destroy it. It might take a good long soak, being way up inside a little tube.

 

I've not had one of those carb dip cans for over 20 years. They still make those? I do remember we were cautious with it. If there's any caustic soda involved you wouldn't want to leave non-ferrous in very long at all. I doubt there is, but whatever they did use was quite aggressive.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

MEK won't do anything to metal. It's just a solvent, although a really effective one. Remove anything that isn't metal. It leaches oil out of everything. ALL the oil. Don't get it on your skin, it will crack afterward. Often oil based carbon deposits, even ones that defy chiseling, will turn to brittle powdery crud resembling dry dirt, which will then clean up with something else. I don't know what it would do to gasoline based varnish, but I'll bet it would utterly destroy it. It might take a good long soak, being way up inside a little tube.

 

I've not had one of those carb dip cans for over 20 years. They still make those? I do remember we were cautious with it. If there's any caustic soda involved you wouldn't want to leave non-ferrous in very long at all. I doubt there is, but whatever they did use was quite aggressive.

 

MEK is my go-to for cleaning vacuum tanks but still requires mechanical abrasion to remove "varnish."  I've been reluctant to soak a vac tank or components so I put the vac tank outer reservoir on the bench sideways, apply MEK with a paint brush several times, and use a wire wheel on a hand-held drill.  I have not used it on carbs.

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

MEK is my go-to for cleaning vacuum tanks but still requires mechanical abrasion to remove "varnish."  I've been reluctant to soak a vac tank or components so I put the vac tank outer reservoir on the bench sideways, apply MEK with a paint brush several times, and use a wire wheel on a hand-held drill.  I have not used it on carbs.

I am impelled to add:  WEAR FACE PROTECTION AND GLOVES WHEN USING MEK.

[Rock10]

6 minutes ago, Grimy said:

I am impelled to add:  WEAR FACE PROTECTION AND GLOVES WHEN USING MEK.

Back in the day we would just pour it on a rag and wipe down the car after wet sanding.

 

[Rock10]

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Jasco-128-fl-oz-Fast-to-Dissolve-Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone-MEK/1000508687

 

Well Lowes has this. It ain't cheap.

[Rock10]

I don't think the problem is varnish.

I think the crud left by the ethanol and possibly the assembly stuff left in our new fuel pump ended up stuck in there when the fuel evaporated.

Maybe throw in a few tiny rust particles.

Then I tried to blow it out with compressed air and jammed it in those little tubes.

[Grimy]

10 minutes ago, Rock10 said:

Back in the day we would just pour it on a rag and wipe down the car after wet sanding.

 

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din!  (apologies to R. Kipling)

[Oldtech]

MEK is used by aircraft people for fabric planes, if you know any of those guys. But... What about just trying Lacquer thinner. It's a pretty good carb cleaner.

[Rock10]

I've used some paint thinner, but lacquer thinner is a bit stronger.

[Rock10]

3 hours ago, Grimy said:

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din!  (apologies to R. Kipling)

It was decades ago.

The stupidity of youth.

 

[Bloo]

4 hours ago, Rock10 said:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Jasco-128-fl-oz-Fast-to-Dissolve-Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone-MEK/1000508687

 

Well Lowes has this. It ain't cheap.

When you get there, or to any of the other big boxes, you will find it is "MEK Substitute", and the label says "use wherever MEK would be used" or something like that. Finding the SDS will most likely confirm it is Ethyl Acetate, a cheaper chemical. They have also raised the price. I tried some out of desperation a couple months ago. I wasn't impressed. Your mileage may vary.

 

A boating supply that handles professional epoxy systems (West System, etc.) may have the real thing. Unfortunately the price is through the roof. I wasn't kidding when I said it has become hard to source.

 

4 hours ago, Rock10 said:

Back in the day we would just pour it on a rag and wipe down the car after wet sanding.

 

When the tips of your fingers split open you probably won't do that again.....

 

3 hours ago, Oldtech said:

MEK is used by aircraft people for fabric planes, if you know any of those guys. But... What about just trying Lacquer thinner. It's a pretty good carb cleaner.

It couldn't hurt. Lacquer thinner isn't what it was though. It used to be mostly MEK and Acetone I think. Read the SDS. It's mostly alcohol now. Alcohol might work, but it is far less aggressive as a solvent.

 

4 hours ago, Rock10 said:

I don't think the problem is varnish.

I think the crud left by the ethanol and possibly the assembly stuff left in our new fuel pump ended up stuck in there when the fuel evaporated.

Maybe throw in a few tiny rust particles.

Then I tried to blow it out with compressed air and jammed it in those little tubes.

I was calling it varnish, thinking it might be about like the 2 year old E-10 that went bad and glued all the valves solid in my 390 Ford. They came loose eventually with a lot of penetrating oil, brake cleaner, and hammering. I don't know whether the penetrating oil or the brake clean was more effective. Neither did anything very quickly.

 

 

 

[Rock10]

Would vinegar hurt the carb?

[EmTee]

What about Muriatic acid?  Carefully...

Edited November 29, 2022 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Rock10]

Not worth the risk.

[EmTee]

Is it possible to get monofilament fishing line in there to loosen the crud?

[pont35cpe]

Rock, it`s been awhile since i actually rebuilt my `36 EE-1. It`s all coming back to me, and by reading some of the postings, i did something that`s not suppose to be able to be done. I used needle nose pliers to get ahold of the brass tube, and pried/pulled the squirt end out of the nozzle. I thought i might be able to pull the other end out of it`s hole, but realized, not happening. Now you`ve got to be careful to not collapse, or dent the tube, when grabbing with the needle nose pliers. The tube would not come out of the carb body hole, but it would pivot/twist in the hole. I was able to turn my tubes enough to give access to the squirt end of the tube, then you can poke a wire into the squirt end, where the blockage is. I used a wire, from a wire brush as a poker, flushed the tube to make sure it was clean, then pivot/twist tube back in place, and put the squirt end back in the nozzle. I was too stupid to know, it couldn`t be done, and guess i stood a good chance of destroying my EE-1, but didn`t.

Edited November 30, 2022 by pont35cpe (see edit history)

[Rock10]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

Is it possible to get monofilament fishing line in there to loosen the crud?

I have a small wire that seems to fit the hole, but there is almost no access as the tube is right up against the venturi and the wire isn't stiff enough to push against anything. It just folds up.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Rock10 (see edit history)

[Rock10]

1 hour ago, pont35cpe said:

Rock, it`s been awhile since i actually rebuilt my `36 EE-1. It`s all coming back to me, and by reading some of the postings, i did something that`s not suppose to be able to be done. I used needle nose pliers to get ahold of the brass tube, and pried/pulled the squirt end out of the nozzle. I thought i might be able to pull the other end out of it`s hole, but realized, not happening. Now you`ve got to be careful to not collapse, or dent the tube, when grabbing with the needle nose pliers. The tube would not come out of the carb body hole, but it would pivot/twist in the hole. I was able to turn my tubes enough to give access to the squirt end of the tube, then you can poke a wire into the squirt end, where the blockage is. I used a wire, from a wire brush as a poker, flushed the tube to make sure it was clean, then pivot/twist tube back in place, and put the squirt end back in the nozzle. I was too stupid to know, it couldn`t be done, and guess i stood a good chance of destroying my EE-1, but didn`t.

I'm just really scared to try that. If I damage the tubes, there are no replacements.

The only thing I've found is a guy selling rebuilt carbs for over $600 and at last check, he didn't have any in stock.

I was wondering about a short soak in vinegar but I don't want to damage anything.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Rock10 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

We have manufactured the tubes for some of the Strombergs in the past. The tooling was terribly difficult to make and use;  and mostly it was a hand made component. 2/3’s of them go to the trash. We never sold them on the open market and only offered it as a rebuilding service. It is VERY expensive. And my old shop is two or more years backed up. It probably would only be partially economically feasible if there was an order for ten of them. I have photos of the ones we made in the past on my shop computer. 2k for a rebuild with new tubes would be in the neighborhood. And that’s at the “ten” number. 
 

PS- they can often be impossible to clear out.  Once removed, heating them to 250 degrees will usually burn out the crud in them 80 percent of the time. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Rock10]

Do you think vinegar would hurt the tubes?

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, Rock10 said:

Do you think vinegar would hurt the tubes?

No…..but the tubes are so thin and fragile when new, that they seldom come out without damage from the swelling of the pot metal. 

[pont35cpe]

8 hours ago, Rock10 said:

I have a small wire that seems to fit the hole, but there is almost no access as the tube is right up against the venturi and the wire isn't stiff enough to push against anything. It just folds up.

You might try plucking a wire from a wire brush to use as a poker, it`s a small gauge rigid piece of wire, doubt it will fold up. Possible carb alternative, AACA members Gary W and Pete Phillips switched out the stock `37 248 carb to a Carter WCD(3bolt). The WCD may work just fine in place of the EE-1 on the 233, maybe CarbKing could advise. Linkage would have to be modified from inboard side of carb to out board side. WCDs are easy to find, compared to an EE-1.

Edited November 30, 2022 by pont35cpe (see edit history)

[Bloo]

At this point I am throwing ideas at the wall and hoping something sticks.

 

I'd still try a long soak in MEK if you can get it but I doubt you can. It took me about a year to source a gallon if it, cost 50 bucks, and I'm still bitter LOL. Two years ago every hardware store had it, and for less than 20 bucks.

 

Failing that, I think I would submerse it boiling or almost boiling water, with just a little dishwashing soap, enough to break the surface tension in the water. I'd probably leave it in at least an hour, enough to get it really saturated with heat, and then attempt to blast the passages clean with brake cleaner while the casting is still hot. If it's goo of some kind that might melt it enough to help.

 

Rust was mentioned in the thread earlier. If you think it might be rust, try evaporust. It's kind of thick out of the bottle and those passages are small. You probably need to dilute it. Morgan Wright diluted a similar chemical in another thread, and it still sort of worked to remove rust, so I think you could dilute it to reduce it's viscosity. I would try about 5 parts water to one part evaporust, and heat it to about 110-120F, and completely submerge it at that temperature for at least 24 hours. 48 might be better. Be sure to orient the casting so any air in the passages has to come out, and cannot prevent the evaporust from reaching the clog. You might have to rotate the casting under the surface to get all the bubbles out. Be sure to keep a lid of some sort over it, you will lose too much water to evaporation otherwise.

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

As Bloo suggested, a cold shot of brake cleaner into the hot tubes two or three times might help break the logjam...

[Rock10]

I will try the Evapo-rust and some heat today.

I've included some bad pictures trying to show the tubes.

They are angle cut on the ends and are right next to holes in the venturis were the gas would shoot through.

I don't know if they were supposed to actually be inserted into those holes.

But as you can see there is no room the squirt fluid or stick a wire in there.

The pic from the bottom shows the holes in the venturis if you look closely.

[pont35cpe]

Tapered end of the tubes should be inserted in the holes, to where the squirt is inside the nozzle, end of tube protrudes approx 1/8" inside the nozzle.. Is that a crack in the side of the nozzle? That could be a problem.

Edited November 30, 2022 by pont35cpe (see edit history)

[Rock10]

I don't see a crack.

How do I get those back into the venturis?

Will the function just spraying down the side?

The car seemed to drive fine before this happened.

[pont35cpe]

33 minutes ago, Rock10 said:

I don't see a crack.

How do I get those back into the venturis?

Will the function just spraying down the side?

The car seemed to drive fine before this happened.

"Crack" may just be a shadow, just to the left of the lower brass tube, picture #3.  Picture #2, notice the "ring" where the tube decreases in diameter, smaller end should be into the hole, to the "ring". I used the needle nose to get it started into the hole, then work/push it in, down to the "ring". It may function OK not being in the hole, i don`t know, but originally it`s in the hole, where the squirt is aimed toward center of the throat, must have something to do with air and gas mixing. What you are calling the venturi, i`m calling the nozzle. I think the venturi is the part of the throat where it gets smaller in diameter, air flow creates a drop in air pressure, which lets the gas flow from the bowl to the nozzle.

[Rock10]

I think if it was a crack, I would have seen water leaking through when I blow on it. I can get a small drip on both sides.

You are right on the terminology. The venturi is supposed to be 1 1/32".

I plan to soak in in a mixture of Evapo-Rust and water in a crock pot heated overnight to see what happens.

The idea of messing with trying to insert the tubes in the nozzles scares me.

[EmTee]

Wow - I can see where that 90* bend that the tube makes to point up the venturi could be a problem.  It seems crazy the way those tubes bend around to squirt into the venturi, given that more modern carburetors simply shoot a stream of gas at the throttle valve to accomplish the same thing!  If you can't clear the jam, I would seriously consider cutting the tube ahead of the point where it enters the venturi and is just pointing down into the throttle body.  Then fill the empty holes in the venturis with epoxy...

[Rock10]

I hope it doesn't come to that.