Rust in the gas tank

[Rock10]

Can you install those without splitting?

[1937McBuick]

3 minutes ago, Rock10 said:

Can you install those without splitting?

Rocky...  I honestly don't know,  without trying.   Are you asking about the bullet casings or those other inserts from the fittings for airbrakes  and water lines.

 

Any thoughts and opinions will be considered.   Considered to confuse me more.  Lol,  just kidding.

It's good to hear what other people have to say or what worked for them.

[Bloo]

Heat em up to dull red with a torch. Either quench them or let them cool. Despite common wisdom, it doesn't matter which. Brass turns into a wet noodle when you do that. That will solve most of the splitting problem. Get 2 or 3 different size ball bearings to beat on to help form the rivet heads. You can't have huge rivet heads, or yeah they will split, but as big as they were before is very doable. You may have to experiment with how much brass you let poke through the holes. 

[1937McBuick]

I don't have a hollow rivet setter and really don't want to buy one to install three rivets.

 

I was also wondering if inserting a bolt through the hollow rivet that fit snuggly,  holding the head in the vice and using the tightening action of the nut to crush/peen the rivet tight.

 

Did you just use ball bearings Bloo?   I think I remember you said you made your own rivets.  What did you use or start with?

 

[Rock10]

1 hour ago, 1937McBuick said:

Rocky...  I honestly don't know,  without trying.   Are you asking about the bullet casings or those other inserts from the fittings for airbrakes  and water lines.

 

Any thoughts and opinions will be considered.   Considered to confuse me more.  Lol,  just kidding.

It's good to hear what other people have to say or what worked for them.

I meant the bullet casings.

[Bloo]

I used ball bearings, both to make the rivets and to put them in. I doubt anything else homebrew would work. I think anything with a bolt would just sort of squish and make a mess. One caveat is that there is just barely room for the rivet. It would be really easy to wind up with a hole too small if the brass was too thick. I formed the heads with ball bearings and then did the last hit with a pin punch. Then, because the rivets were a little tight around the screws, I forced in a philips screwdriver, a #1 Snap-On I think, but whatever could be forced in to insure the hole was big enough. Then I Hit them with the pin punch once more to make sure they were still tight.

 

I used tubing from the hobby store. I did not know of the .22 possibility at the time. The rivets were made in a tool made by @37_Roadmaster_C that was just a hole like the OD of the tubing in a piece of steel, with a nice chamfer at the top. I have no idea how he figured out how deep to make the hole, but it worked. I cut the blanks with a mini tubing cutter. It took a few tries to figure out the length. Then I formed heads on them using the tool and the ball bearings.

 

I do know that one rivet is shorter, and I am not sure how that can be, but my three rivets were most likely all the same, as there was only one forming tool. I must have split the difference on the length.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

18 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Evaporust doesn't work well in gas tanks. Especially if they are dirty/gummy/mucked. Generally on a gas tank, cut it open, sand blast it, close it up making all repairs..........and then seal it. We usually just make new tanks now. Bit thats on a car where cost isn't much of a consideration. 

 

It worked extremely well, the way I got it to work was I cooked the empty tank for 3 days on a radiator that was around 180 degrees. That got all the gasoline out to bone dry. Once the tank was stone dry inside the evaporust worked extremely well. I think if it didnt work for you it's because the tank was still wet with gasoline inside and evaporust is water-base so it couldn't get past the gasoline. Water and gasoline dont mix and the gasoline would repel water which means repel the Evaporust.

[EmTee]

What would happen if assembled without the rivets?  Could a couple of solid rivets in new holes be used to keep the pieces together during assembly, if desired?  I'm all for trying to rebuild things as they were originally, however, given that these senders are completely hidden -- and lots of antique cars are driving around with not-so-faithful 'reproduction' sending units, what would be wrong with just eliminating the hollow rivets?  Chances are good that it will be coming out again for maintenance in the future...

[MCHinson]

14 minutes ago, EmTee said:

What would happen if assembled without the rivets?  Could a couple of solid rivets in new holes be used to keep the pieces together during assembly, if desired?  I'm all for trying to rebuild things as they were originally, however, given that these senders are completely hidden -- and lots of antique cars are driving around with not-so-faithful 'reproduction' sending units, what would be wrong with just eliminating the hollow rivets?  Chances are good that it will be coming out again for maintenance in the future...

I think that would work fine without the rivets. On the 1938 that you now own, I riveted the sending unit back together with standard aluminum rivets and then carefully drilled out the center of the rivets. If I recall correctly one of the rivets fell out, and the others stayed in. I called it close enough.  Once installed the screws hold the sending unit together anyway. The only real reason the rivets are needed is so the sending unit can be assembled and shipped separate from the tank. As soon as it is installed in the tank, the rivets don't really serve any purpose.  

[1937McBuick]

Emtee,   Not too many spots available.    Maybe at the 4 o'clock, 9 or 11 o'clock positions.

 

I will use the 2 smaller holes to put bolts in during the attempt to rivet this thing back together.

[EmTee]

9 minutes ago, 1937McBuick said:

Maybe at the 4 o'clock, 9 or 11 o'clock positions.

Agree!

[1937McBuick]

 

Another question.   Did anyone attempt to seal this wiper shaft where it comes through the base?   Either from the top or underside(inside gas tank side).   I thought a wee bit of silicon  around the shaft on the top side,   or in the recess that is there on the underside( I don't have a pic of that area at the moment).  I'm not talking a pile of silicon.    It would have to dry then gently move the float lever to release the silicon bond.    How did they prevent a wee bit of gas and vapor from getting into the resistor area under the cap?    Even overfilling the tank to the point it comes up the filler neck would have the sending unit assembly "below" the gas level.

[EmTee]

Do NOT use silicone anywhere near gasoline!  It will swell-up and turn to jelly.  I don't think I would worry about it; gravity will always be trying to pull liquid to the bottom of the tank.  Just make sure the gaskets form a perimeter seal when the top/cover is in place.

[1937McBuick]

Ok,  thanks Emtee.   Maybe I should quit trying to find solutions to problems that don't exist.😉

[Bloo]

They didn't try to seal it. Apparently it isn't that important. Mine has been working fine for a couple of years now. Leaking around the fuel pickup tube would matter more because it would be out on top and you might smell it. They soldered the fuel pickup to the hole in the top piece originally, although that might not really matter either because the little egg shaped gasket would squeeze around it. The threads around the mounting screws could seep. GM apparently made the holes in the sender-tank gasket fit really tight around the screws to seal it up. In the 50s I believe they added copper washers under the screw heads. I made the holes in my sender-tank gaskets extra tight. That makes it a little fiddly to install, but really not that big of a deal. I used low-strength purple loctite on the screws to be sure they sealed. Blue would be fine too. I did not use copper washers.

 

I agree with @EmTee about the silicone. That and teflon tape don't belong within 100 yards of a 30s car. 😛

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I had a very bad experience using silicone on the sending unit on a boat I owned ~20 years ago.  The motor started cutting out randomly; didn't quit running completely, but basically fell down to idle speed.  After checking ignition coils, I eventually discovered when it happened the primer bulb was flat and I couldn't pump it up.  I removed the sending unit and found big globs of swollen silicone rolling around in the tank.  Whenever enough of that 'jelly' was pulled around the pickup (which didn't have a sock) it basically shut off the fuel.  One of many lessons I learned the hard way...

[Bloo]

There was one improvement I did make. I added a sock filter. Initially I thought one of the round Ford or Mopar types would be perfect. Most are meant to slide over a 5/16" line. There is even a half-length version as pictured.

That did NOT work. No matter what you do there is no way it is going to fit through the hole into the tank once installed. Plan B was a GM flat style sock, Those are available in 5/16" as well as 3/8", but 5/16" is whats needed here. It will go in the tank, just barely, but there is a problem.

 

The sock is so long that it might walk up the pickup tube far enough to get caught in the gears. One approach might be to solder a ring on the pickup tube to stop it. Another is to shorten the sock. I shortened the sock to about half it's original length. The mesh is plastic, and is melted together at the bottom. You can cut the mesh with a big scissors, but melting it back together was pretty challenging at first. I tried all sorts of methods. I could not help but think of Thomas Edison telling some reporter that he had learned 700 ways NOT to make a light bulb. I discovered the secret though. Unfortunately I don't have a picture. Take a piece of brass shim stock a little more than twice as wide as the melted seam. Fold it in half. Crimp it over the cut un-melted end. Heat up the shim stock with a big soldering iron until the plastic inside melts. After it cools, peel the brass off.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Rock10]

I usually just use garters on my socks. 

[1937McBuick]

I'm not really satisfied with the underside.  Yes Rocky the casings split.  It seems the more material sticking out of the hole the worse it was.   The mounting screws easily fit through the holes of the hollow "rivets"

 

Rocky,

No comment on your garters

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by 1937McBuick (see edit history)

[Bloo]

It's fine. If you don't like it, do it again. You are limited in how big the heads can be. Even after I learned how long to make the rivets, about one in three split. Make a few extras if you are going to pursue it, but it would be ok the way it is. What could it possibly hurt?

 

Does the resistance get nice and low with the float arm hanging?

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[1937McBuick]

I think the ohms range is acceptable too.

 

I'll install it into the gas tank to take any possible strain off those gerry-rigged rivets.  When the Bob's floats get here I'll take the sending unit back out of the tank, put them on and re-install.   Then finally get that tank back under the car.

 

Thanks everyone for your patience and guidance.  This thing was seized and broken,  with all your help I was able to resurrect the dead sending unit.

I hope it lasts.

Edited December 11, 2022 by 1937McBuick (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Nice!

 

[Rock10]

3 hours ago, 1937McBuick said:

I'm not really satisfied with the underside.  Yes Rocky the casings split.  It seems the more material sticking out of the hole the worse it was.   The mounting screws easily fit through the holes of the hollow "rivets"

Not bad though. I think I would try the split ones again, although they still probably work OK.

3 hours ago, 1937McBuick said:

Rocky,

No comment on your garters

 

It's OK. Not everybody can pull it off.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Rock10 (see edit history)

[EmTee]

4 hours ago, 1937McBuick said:

I'm not really satisfied with the underside.

Looks like a functional repair to me.  The rivets will still serve their purpose and once it is installed the rivets are immaterial.  Looks like you're almost done!