Could one reasonably drive a '17 Hupmobile Model N "regularly"?

[AustinDevon]

I've been thinking about buying a 1917 Model N Hupmobile, which is one of the rarer models and was only produced from 1915 to 1917. This model was discussed some years ago as being rather difficult to find parts for and also having the following unpleasant quirks, as described by a gentleman in Australia:

 

"[The] Most common reason for abandonment [of Model Ns] was Crownwheel teeth snapped off because the pinion adjustment did not lock and failure of no 2 or 3 rod bearing."

 

Now as my intent is to drive any car I acquire without constantly worrying about it as I go (and this Hupmobile is in excellent and fully driveable condition), my questions regarding this Hupp are 1) can the the pinion adjustment be modified so it can be locked, and 2) how may I maintain its oiling system and run the 4-cylinder engine optimally to prevent rod bearing failure? I believe it's a splash oiling system - though I might be wrong there - and thermosyphon cooling. I don't know the clutch type, but the two-wheel service brakes (foot pedal) are external-contracting shoes on the rear drums and the "emergency" (hand lever) are internal-expanding shoes on the same drums. It's a long but comparatively lightweight car rated at 38 bhp, so I expect cruising speed - with proper care and requisite driving skill - to be around 45 mph and the top end somewhere around 50-55, but perhaps to be avoided because of the mechanical bugaboos I mentioned above. I'm not a hidebound "originalist", but if things can be made to work better in general use without tearing something apart and changing it completely I'm all for it. Show cars have never interested me; in my book, an early car is to be driven and used, albeit with care, respect, and safety awareness.

 

Any thoughts on this as a "driving" vehicle of its type rather than a probable basket-case?

[JFranklin]

Your top speed should realisticly be around 45 if you want to continue driving it for a long while. The rear axle trouble probably can be solved by a good machinist.

[Bloo]

I don't know, but I have a model N in pieces, so I would like to know. They were known for reliability in their time. Hupp sent an N on an around the country tour and visited all the state capitals at a time when there were just barely roads.

 

I have heard of the rear axle troubles, and one of the parts cars in my project had a Studebaker rear axle in it. I would bet an awful lot against 50-55 MPH. Its probably a 45MPH car as most were in that size class at that time. I have heard the oiling was improved on the 1917, but the rear axle gearing is lower.

 

By the way, the N oiling system consists of the flywheel lifting oil up into a reservoir which then drains under gravity through oil galleys and a drilled crank to get to the bearings. Not exactly pressure but not exactly splash. There is no oil pump. There is no water pump, it is indeed thermosiphon. Generator and fan are driven by a silent chain. They really were trying to minimize what could go wrong.

 

The wheels are 26 inch, and the 34x4 tires cost a small fortune. Only a few cars use them. I have been advertising for some "rollers" so I can move the chassis around the shop for about 2 years now. I still don't have any....

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[hidden_hunter]

2 hours ago, AustinDevon said:

I've been thinking about buying a 1917 Model N Hupmobile, which is one of the rarer models and was only produced from 1915 to 1917. This model was discussed some years ago as being rather difficult to find parts for and also having the following unpleasant quirks, as described by a gentleman in Australia:

 

 

Worth mentioning that if the person in Australia was in any reasonably built up area the highest speed they'd likely be doing is 50mph (speeding in most states is rigourosly enforced) and if in there in the open country then there wouldn't be much pressure to go that fast (our major highways outside of capital cities are nothing like interstates) 

[Bloo]

Some old documents I got from the Hupp club suggest maybe I was optimistic about speed. In at least one document they were bragging about how smooth it is at 50mph. That couldn't possibly be sustained in my opinion. There were apparently 3 gear ratios in the N, but in 1917 they were bragging about 4.6, the lowest one. An N with 4.6 and 35 inch tires developed maximum horsepower at 44mph. If you have a short wheelbase N like mine and most others, you have 34 inch tires, so make that 42-43mph. So then guessing that it can probably do 80 percent of it's maximum output indefinitely, I think it is probably about a 35mph car for sustained speeds. That would have been fairly typical in the days of 2 wheel brakes.

 

The roads were terrible in those days and there was no place to drive fast. The measure of a good car was how steep of a hill it could pull without downshifting, not top speed.

 

Hopefully this thread will attract the attention of some other N owners and we can find out for sure what they are capable of.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

Mr. Devon, can you define how you want to drive it

"regularly," and what roads you have on which to use it?

I've driven my 1916 Locomobile Model 38 regularly--meaning,

taking it twice a week on 10-mile jaunts on country roads,

with little traffic, and at speeds for which it was designed.

 

I think you need to lower your expectations of speed substantially.

My car, with its 62 horsepower, was large for its day.

It has a "sweet spot," in which it's most comfortable, of

25 to 35 miles per hour--not 45 or 50 or 55!  The same car's 

instruction book lists the speed limits in each state in 1916:

In Pennsylvania, quite typical, the limit was 12 m.p.h. in town

and 24 m.p.h. on the open highway.  People weren't driving

even 35 miles per hour.  That is why the car is in top gear

(4th gear) at 20 to 25 miles per hour.

 

I wouldn't recommend using your car as a driver for daily chores.

Slow down to the speeds of 1917.  If you have the right roads,

in the country or a small town, it may give you plenty of enjoyment

as a twice-weekly pleasure car!

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[AustinDevon]

But of course - this would be for the country, nearby towns, and back roads. Not a "daily driver" in the usual sense of the word. I have another older "orphan" car for that during the season, but I only intimate what it is here because it's British, not American, and it can do 60 pretty comfortably if you give it the time to reach that. And, weirdly, it has both hydraulic and mechanical brakes and can stop on a sixpence.

 

Around where I live in Rochester, NY the roads were actually pretty good in the late 1910s. I have the 1913 Rochester Auto Club Guide Book and most of the routes listed to Syracuse and Buffalo are macadam or brick, with an occasional mention of dirt or other surfacing (sometimes with the note "to be improved in 1913"). Rochester was already a heavily automobiled city at that point, with most of the dealers lining East Ave. close to the center of the city, and they all advertised in the book. The last to close was a Chevrolet dealership that folded around 1992; the glossy, neon-lit exterior was preserved, and it's now one of the nicest coffee shops you can imagine.

Edited November 17, 2021 by AustinDevon (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

Things you must consider with using the term "daily-driver" are (but not limited to):

Will you be able to keep up with other traffic?

related to this - Will you be able to accelerate fast enough?  Will you be able to stop quick enough?  Will you be effectively able to maneuver safely in the flow of traffic?  Will you (and the car) be able to drive defensively (and aggressively) enough to avoid dangerous situations of impede the flow of traffic?

How will others react to your vehicle in traffic (i.e. what kind if distraction will you be causing)?

Is the vehicle equipped with adequate lighting and signaling devices? (Last time I tried to use a hand-signal while driving my Model T, nobody knew what I was doing and simply "waved back.")

 

You'll be driving something people don't see regularly. I've nearly been run off the road having drivers try to take pictures of my car using their cell phones!   I even had some ass driving along side me using the shoulder lane so he could get a picture (or several).  All was fine until he swerved to miss a speed-limit sign and nearly caused a major disaster! 

 

I've driven a lot in the UK years ago using our 1935 Morris Eight and it's fine until you get into traffic - which is becoming more common these days regardless where you drive.

Terry

[F&J]

23 minutes ago, AustinDevon said:

But of course - this would be for the country and back roads.

You know your own roads, and should know what speeds you need maintain to stay out of peoples way, including HILLS.  ...and every vintage car has it's sweet spot as far as it's cruising speed.  You will be forced at times to run the car harder to get out of peoples way; no place to safely pull over, etc. 

 

I gave up on slow cars years ago, even before cellphones came to be, which then caused more rear end crashes.  Todays drivers have been "subconsciously" programmed to only look for modern HUGE tail/brake lights, and also drive at faster road speeds.  It's no fun at all spending most of any drive while staring in your rear view mirror. It's stressful.  Yes you could ignore them, but it's too dangerous now with cellphone addicts.

 

I had to take faster State Secondary roads to get to lesser travelled roads, but even on slower roads, somebody was always on your tail.  I got so tired of trying to find a safe place to pull over so they can pass.  It just was not worth the drive.

 

I now drive a modified 1932 car year round as my primary car. Yes, it will go faster than anybody would ever want, but it has small rear lights, (AND a 3rd brakelight) and people just don't look for small lights!!   I live on a flat straight stretch of a busy State road where 55mph is the minimum that they drive.  I can't tell you how many times a texter is on my tail when I signal, and I  NEED to slow down to turn a sharp 90 degree into my driveway!  I watch as they swerve at the last second, or honk the horn like I did something wrong..  People today truly suck IMO, they just can't pay attention to driving because of their freaking phones or dashboard TV!!! ..  How can your turn into a normal driveway at 55mph!!! 

 

My advice is take a normal car out for trips on your own roads, but keep your speeds at 1917 Hupp speeds. Slow way down on hills like the Hupp will.   See if you can do it, and still enjoy the ride without looking in the mirror full time, or irritating the resulting tailgaters. 

 

After years of daily driving only vintage cars,  I can tell you for FACT that the cellphone texters only glance up at the road for a split second, looking to follow YOUR CAR!!!, not looking at the road ahead.  I have tried pulling into the guttter to be able to slow down for a side street, and these morons actually follow ME!  I could drive right off the road on a curve, and they would follow.  I am not exaggerating. 

 

2 power poles were taken down near my house by 2 different texters. I believe i will get hit someday in front of my home.

[Terry Bond]

Well said!   It's not always about YOU and YOUR driving, or even the car itself - it's about ALL THE OTHER KOOKS out there you need to be watchful of.  Even in a modern car that's able to react as I need it to (and when I need it to) I'm always fearful of other drivers who take away my escape routes or cushion for error while in traffic.

Terry

[John_S_in_Penna]

Other traffic?  Intersections?  Getting out of others' way?

It depends on how rural his area is.  Thankfully, for many

old-car fans, there are areas sparsely populated, and 

25 m.p.h. country roads, where there are no other drivers,

and only cows or forests to look at at intersections.

 

There are entire counties without a single traffic light.

If I took the back road to work, I could occasionally travel

15 MILES on a paved road without seeing another car

coming the opposite direction.  And that was at morning

"rush" hour.

 

Here's a Pennsylvania road even more remote than the one

I drove to work on.  I once got lost, riding in a big circle for an

hour, without seeing any house or sign of civilization:

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

That's the kind of roads we're talking about as ideal for old cars. Not sure that's what you'd encounter using an old car as a "daily driver" though. This weekend we'll be on our clubs annual "Square Car Tour" and our route takes on about 35 miles on untravelled country roads. Looking forward to it but those coming from any great distance will probably trailer in the teens/20s cars rather than driving interstates point. Busy city streets to get to the starting point.

Terry

[AustinDevon]

The area I would drive the Hupmobile has two towns and several small villages; in fact, the entire county doesn't contain a single road that is more than two-lane, and on all but 2 the posted speed limit is 45 or less (mostly less - 40's the most common). And it's pretty flat, with only a couple of hills here and there, with not much in gradients. My other car is relatively well known in the area, and people drive remarkably politely when I'm on the road.

 

For driving the Hupp I would figure out an electric signal system that a) wouldn't detract from the car's appearance, b) wouldn't require major installation modifications, and c) could be easily removed by another owner.

 

This is all supposing I actually buy the Hupp!

Edited November 17, 2021 by AustinDevon
extra info. (see edit history)