Dave39MD Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 I experienced some severe clutch chatter and then a pop and lost all gears. The bay with the lift won't be available for awhile but I would like to see if I can figure out what I broke so I can start rounding up the parts. A friend suggested I check the axles and both wheels spin when the rear end is lifted and the wheels won't pull out. They also spin when in gear. I took out the floor boards hoping to find an inspection cover but there is not one on the top and the bottom doesn't show anything. I was thinking the next step might be to take the shifter out and see if the gears are turning when I spin the wheels. If not it would be drive shaft or universal, if they are turning the clutch would be suspect. What do you think of my reasoning? I any case once I free up the lift the rear end and drive shaft will need to come out at a minimum. Any advise on the job and potential pitfalls will be appreciated. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted June 28, 2021 Share Posted June 28, 2021 Dave, I suggest you look inside the driveline ball joint. The universal inside may have let go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted June 28, 2021 Author Share Posted June 28, 2021 Good idea, thanks Mark. I was able to move the collar back enough to see at least part of the u joint turning so the drive shaft should be okay. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) Hi Dave; The fact that the clutch chattered when the driveline failed would lead me to think you have a clutch failure. There is a big cast iron inspection cover that you can remove fairly easily that will expose the flywheel and clutch. If I'm right there may be loose parts in the cover when you remove it, springs most likely. If you decide to look into the trans to see what is happening there you will have to remove the shifter AND the cover behind it on the top of the trans I believe, removing the shifter only won't let you see into the trans. If you get that cover off I would think the trans will be in neutral and if that's the case you should be able to stop one rear wheel and turn the other. If it is smooth and quiet the u-joint is probably ok. 80/90 trans drawing, if you look at the shifter it is outside the gearcase and just engages 2 shift forks that slide in the cover behind the shifter. You won't see gear movement without removing both. I would start by removing this flywheel cover. If you have loose parts here that's probably end of story, it's a clutch/pressure plate failure... If you don't find the problem in the bell housing and decide to remove the shifter and trans cover make sure you start by putting the trans in neutral, then remove the shifter lifting it straight up, then remove the cover behind it also being careful to lift straight up. That will leave the trans in neutral letting you test the u-joint by turning one rear wheel while holding the other. Edited July 2, 2021 by Str8-8-Dave Add text (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) Thanks Dave, great info. I found the sheet metal / felt cover in front of the bellhousing but did not see that the bottom comes off. Maybe I better get a better set of glasses before going any further! Dave Edited July 2, 2021 by Dave39MD (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Not wanting to be bearer of bad news, and you probably know this but to service any of the culprits the axle and torque tube have to come out. If it was just the U-joint you could avoid pulling the trans but if it's the clutch the trans has to come out too... Let us know what you find out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 3, 2021 Author Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) Yes you are right and the rear end and tranny look very heavy. The transmission is the size of 3, 31 Chevy transmissions. I have a lift which will help. I think the sequence will be remove all brake rods and anything connected to the rear end or transmission like pedals, handles, and switches. Raise the car and remove the u bolts holding the rear end. Disconnect the drive shaft at the u joint. Lower the car and remove the rear most spring hanger. Then roll the assembly out of the way. For the transmission I am thinking of making a cradle to keep it level and straight for the tranny jack and installing a couple of guide studs to remove and install it straight. The Buick manual presumes I know what I am doing and my Motors only goes back to 35 so if anyone has any suggestions I am certainly open to them. Thanks Dave Edited July 3, 2021 by Dave39MD (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Dave39MD said: Disconnect the drive shaft at the u joint Dave- You said you removed the bolts at the ball connection flange and pried it back far enough to see part of the u-joint. The u-joint has a yoke with the drive spline that slides onto the output shaft of the trans. Hoist the car by the frame. Then if you have the bolts out of the ball flange once you get brake rods off, saddle bolts off the axle attachment to the springs let the car down until the tires just contact the floor and lay a couple strips of masking tape on the floor next to the tires to help guide the axle back in later, remove the rear spring shackles and let the springs down. Now you should be able to roll the axle back enough to get the input yoke to drop off the trans output shaft, the yoke on the u-joint will just slide off the splines of the trans output shaft. If you can roll the axle back just far enough to get the torque tube flange out of the cross member that would be ideal but you may have to raise the car just a bit to get the axle to clear the gas tank and tail pipe. If you can't roll the axle back far enough to get the torque tube flange be very careful not to raise the car fare enough to get the torque tube in a bind on the cross member flanges. If you just can't get the torque tube out of the cross member you can remove the lower half of the cross member by unbolting it from the upper. In any event don't try to just roll the axle back from the rear, push it back by the front of the torque tube so you can guide the flange on the end of the tube thru the cross member without hanging it up. Finally once the torque tube is clear of the cross member you can lift the car and roll the axle and torque tube out. Edited July 3, 2021 by Str8-8-Dave Add text (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raydurr Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 Maybe I missed something in the previous comments. If your car is like my 1929 Buick it has a removable differential cover. If so it can be removed in no time. Usually 15 minutes. Far less time than fooling with removal of other components. Place car on jackstands ,remove the rear cover and run the car in gear. See if the pinion gear is turning or not. I have a feeling that your failure is in the differential or rear axle shaft related. Sure it can be the clutch , transmission, ujoint or driveashaft. Your differential oil probably needs changed anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 Good info, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Beer Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 following Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 You popped your clutch. Look for debris of clutch pad material in the housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 5, 2021 Author Share Posted July 5, 2021 The housing has been in place for 90 years by the looks if it and does not want to cooperate. I do not want to break anything so I am being patient. I have the four bolts off the bottom and the three on the side that hold the fuel line clips. There are two locating pins between the bottom bolts and I am thinking of applying non flammable heat on these to see if I can loosen it up. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 On 7/5/2021 at 7:49 AM, Dave39MD said: The housing has been in place for 90 years by the looks if it and does not want to cooperate. One more idea and I will leave you alone... Scrape the grease away then spray the perimeter of the cover joint to the cylinder block with penetrating oil and let it set for a few days while you are working on the Chevy. You will probably still have to get brave and put a wood block against the side of it and hit it with a hammer to pop it loose. That shouldn't be much risk of breaking it, just don't hit it with a hammer directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 7, 2021 Author Share Posted July 7, 2021 Sounds like a good idea, I'll try some pb on it later today . No worries on the suggestions, keep them coming. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raydurr Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 I do have a question. Was your speedometer working before the incident? If so, have you checked to see if it works now when attempting to move the car forward? If speedometer operates, yet car wont move , then the failure is from the u joint back. Just an easy way to help isolate the power interruption. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 The rear wheels spin free when jacked up, opposite directions. With the u joint semi exposed I can spin a rear wheel and see part of the u joint moving. I am stuck now at removing the flywheel cover to inspect the clutch. I am in the middle of painting my 31 Chevy and it and all the pieces are in my lift bay which is where the Buick needs to go. I am also a little worried about oil and grease getting anywhere near the paint so the Buick is patiently waiting for me to sand my finger tips away. Getting close. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted December 3, 2021 Share Posted December 3, 2021 Dave, Following....another cliffhanger on the forum, can you please post an update? I am curious because I want to remove my lower flywheel housing and I don't know what to expect. I am missing the front felt cover (I don't even know what this is or looks like), and I am considering fabricating something by guessing at the lower cast cover bolt holes. Hope you got your car up and running by now. Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 Just finished painting the Chevrolet and put the body back on. Getting close to having a spot on the lift for the Buick. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Dave, we have the same lower flywheel cover, and I am trying to figure out how to remove mine to so I can inspect my clutch etc. but the lower flywheel cover won't easily drop to the ground. I did the same things as you, remove the 4 ear flange bolts, and remove the 3 fuel line clip bolts, but the lower cover won't drop. I think the lower cover is hung up on the bell housing. The lower cover has dowels as you know, so it cannot be shifted toward the front of the engine over the bell housing lip to drop freely to the ground without removing the dowels. I am considering driving the 0.433"x1-5/16" dowels up into the upper housing to clear the lower housing ear flange so I can move the lower housing toward the front of the engine so I can drop it. What do you think? Have you made any progress on your 31-66 flywheel cover inspection? I'd like to learn more about what you are doing. Thanks, Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 Mario, I have the same problem as you and the cover won't budge. I was thinking I am missing a hidden bolt or two or maybe 90 years in the same place has frozen it to the other parts. I am finishing up the Chevy and should have it moving under its own power soon. Then the Buick goes in that bay with the lift and I will be able to get a better look. I don't remember the dowels or the lip but I could not get a good look. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Bad news Dave, I drifted the dowels up inside the crossmember (remove 3 bolts from starter first and withdraw about an inch so passenger dowel drifts a of the way up), and the lower cover moves, but the lip is so large that the flywheel prevents forward movement. Attached pic is of my cover up against the flywheel, and there is still more lip hanging on the bellhousing. Choices....remove trans and entire rear and slide bellhousing another 1/8", or hand grind the lower cover and bellhousing interference....or anyone have any more clever ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted January 14, 2022 Author Share Posted January 14, 2022 That is tough news but I have to pull everything out anyway. It must not have been intended to be an inspection cover or we are missing something. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Wait! There is a new hope....but you can't be faint of heart, it took me about 15min of gentle coaxing and tapping and praying the castings would flex more than their yield break point...and its off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 My highly calibrated flywheel removal tools. The lip is almost 9/16". I am going to grind at least 1/4" off for the reinstall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 After all of that, I can't see the clutch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) Dave, I took about 1/8" off the lip and it installs nicely now. Edited January 15, 2022 by 32buick67 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 Great info. You are a brave man! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 All I can say is I hope I don't have to do this in my lifetime... Hard to believe Buick wouldn't have a way to inspect the clutch without tearing the car apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Well, the way I figure, chief engineer FA Dutch Bower was so confident in the clutch and drivetrain, that maybe he thought we'd all be enjoying our cars now into the 21st century, or, my wife might want to up the life insurance policy on me and the kids... I am learning about Buick engineering, and I think that the prerogative was to build it durable and tough, long lasting, and we are just getting into the prime of the gears and mechs now in 2022 as we roll into 50-60-70kmi plus. The Buick bearings etc. are often classified as 'truck' duty. Why?! I have been an undercarriage grease-monkey over the last few weeks, and I have to admit much of my Buick is way overbuilt if you do the math for axial and radial loading from a pure engineering perspective on gear thickness, bearing geometries and castings. My 60 series is way overbuilt, IMHO. I really like overbuilt, don't get me wrong, engineers find security in overbuilt, but wow, Buick, wow, keep impressing 90 years later! Its possible Buick engineering leadership felt there would be no reason to inspect the clutch in the vehicle lifetime, so no need to tear apart the car, only if there was a catastrophic event, which would of course require a full tear down anyway. So what should we consider a vehicle lifetime? I am not sure how to answer that, especially since so many folks can machine their way into a newer lifetime. I like gray cast iron pistons and Marvel carbs, but alas, aluminum pistons and downdraft carbs are good too, but I don't mess with my wife's preference for the paint color blue. Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 8 hours ago, Dave39MD said: Great info. You are a brave man! Dave Maybe not so brave, maybe a bit crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Dave, Any updates on your 1931 driveline health? I hope your progress is good and an easy fix. My car is out of commission again, now due to Marvel carb issues, so I understand frustrations related to keeping these cars running. No hope lost... Mario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 It is frustrating at times. I had finally figured out the lean condition and it was running great and then the exhaust manifold broke. Got that back and it was running great and I broke it again! I have the Chevrolet wired and ready to run on its own power so getting close. Dave 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 It is time to face the music. I am stripping it down for removal and will try and take some photos along the way. As Mario mentioned above everything looks to be dump truck size and a little intimidating. Taking it slow so harm to me or the car. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 Watch your fingers around the torque ball as you guide it thru the cross member. You are on the right track. Take it slow, use a helper/spotter. Good luck! We are waiting to see what you find. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raydurr Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 If it were me I would do the easiest thing first which is remove the differential cover to look for a snapped axle or other damaged parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave39MD Posted March 8, 2022 Author Share Posted March 8, 2022 Raydurr, Thanks for the suggestion. I am going to do that anyway but will move it up as another check. It was my understanding , with the car in the air, if I turn one wheel and the other turns the opposite way I don't have a broken axle. I also pulled hard on the wheels and there is no movement as if they were coming out of the rear end housing. Am I misunderstand the results of this test? Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Str8-8-Dave Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Dave39MD said: Am I misunderstand the results of this test? No, not misunderstanding. One other easy one now that you have the front of the driveshaft exposed, block one rear wheel so it won't turn, get a helper to turn the other wheel while you observe the driveshaft. If it turns when you turn that unblocked wheel it's probably a waste of time taking the axle cover off... Edited March 9, 2022 by Str8-8-Dave (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
32buick67 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Dave, the good news is that this is sounding like the transmission and driveline might be good, but it also sounds like the failure might be the clutch as Morgan mentioned earlier in this post. I got a local quote recently for my 32-67 clutch relining, and it was less than $300 from a shop that handles vintage cars, so hopefully this repair isn't expensive for you, but it sounds like it is going to be a muscle project. Be safe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 I guess it should be quite straight forward to remove the engine. When I bought my 1929 Studebaker a couple of years ago, it needed a flywheel ring gear (there was a NOS one among the parts that came with it) and, as it had been in the car since the 1980s, needed cosmetics. It was easy enough to remove the whole thing, and put a clutch plate in while we were at it. The wiring still needs tidying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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