First Gen. Tail Lights not working

[Jim Cannon]

I am looking for ideas from people on this.

 

I am almost done replacing my carpet and decided to test the turn signals, parking lights and headlights before final assembly.

 

Sadly I discovered that I have no tail lights (and no light over license plate).

 

I used a test light to confirm that the grey-colored tail light wire has power coming out of the headlight switch. (That was easy to do because the switch has not yet been installed.)

 

With the same test light, I can confirm we have power in the "round grey wire" of the wiring harness, where it connects to the "flat wire" up under the dash (by the fuse box).

 

Back in the trunk, though, there is no power on the end of the flat wire (where I have disconnected it from the "round wire" harness going back to the lights.

 

Suggestions on where to look to fix this, and what to look for?

 

Thanks!

[1965rivgs]

Morning Jim,

  I didnt check the schematic for the wiring color you are describing but considering the recent work I would look for an issue at the end terminals in the flat harness or the possibility you may have pinched or crushed the harness under the seat?

Tom

[telriv]

Jim,

 

    Check & clean the connections on the flat wire both front & rear 1st.

 

Tom T.

[Turbinator]

Jim, an adjunct. I used metal 1157 bulb sockets with a pigtail to ground to the body of the car.  Works real good. This grounding solution and recognition goes to Bernie Daily.

[Jim Cannon]

OK, guys, I found the problem and fixed it. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Tom T. was correct. The grey wire was partly out of the connector that attaches to the flat wire. When I got in there and looked more carefully, I could see that this one wire connector (the crimped end) was sitting up higher than the others. I grabbed it with my needlenose pliers and pushed the wire down into the plastic end like the others and the tail lights now work.

 

I was pretty sure that it was not a ground problem because the turn signals worked great.

 

I guess with all of my work behind the driver side instrument panel, I tugged that grey wire out of the plastic connector a bit. (I swapped out the brake pedal bracket on this '63 with one from a '64, so that I could replace the hydraulic brake light switch with a mechanical one inside the car.)

 

Onward!

 

[telriv]

Jim,

 

    Glad & happy for you that one of my suggestions worked out.  I always try to use the KISS principal when attacking problems such as this. It's sometimes the little things that trip most in the beginning & tackling & going forward with the bigger less common problems.

    It was probably like that from day one & only gave you a problem many years later because you were rustling around in the interior & caused it to become unlodged.

 

Tom T.

Edited May 27, 2021 by telriv (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

was pretty sure that it was not a ground problem because the turn signals worked great.

 
jim, I had no brake lights just today. Turn signals worked, running lights worked- but no brake lights.

Long story short the metal contacts that slide over the pins on the brake light switch were real dirty. Cleaned the contacts and now I have brake lights. Imagine that.

turbinator

[protrash63]

On 5/26/2021 at 8:30 AM, Turbinator said:

Jim, an adjunct. I used metal 1157 bulb sockets with a pigtail to ground to the body of the car.  Works real good. This grounding solution and recognition goes to Bernie Daily.

Good suggestion. I completed a 1966 Chevy PU about a year ago. I added grounds to every light bucket on the truck and they all glow brightly with zero issues as soon as I tested them. The grounding thru the housings is a real pain to track down sometimes.

[Turbinator]

On 8/11/2021 at 11:16 PM, protrash63 said:

 

On 8/11/2021 at 11:16 PM, protrash63 said:

The grounding thru the housings is a real pain to track down sometimes.

Pro, Ive recognized over the years some people paying particulate attention to ongoing maintenance and proven basic upgrades have great running cars/equipment. ( not that ive done it all the time) One of my pals in the zRiviera Club warned me about fixing it until it is really broke. I watch for that not so wise activity that ends up being worse then before I started.

Clint Eastwood said, “ A man’s got to know his limits.”

[protrash63]

1 hour ago, Turbinator said:

 

Pro, Ive recognized over the years some people paying particulate attention to ongoing maintenance and proven basic upgrades have great running cars/equipment. ( not that ive done it all the time) One of my pals in the zRiviera Club warned me about fixing it until it is really broke. I watch for that not so wise activity that ends up being worse then before I started.

Clint Eastwood said, “ A man’s got to know his limits.”

Hahaha!!  Ya, definitely.  I learned this about 20 years ago on my 64 chevy shortbed...tails would not work correctly. I finally crammed a stripped piece of wire in while installing the lamp and grounded it. BOOM!  worked perfectly.  Im redoing the rear bumper on the Riv and have the back up housings apart.  I clean the inside of the lamp socket with a plumbing brush for 1/2" fittings...works great. I think I will add a ground in behind the nuts that attach the housings to the bumper and eventually tie it to the frame...bypassing all the chrome, corrosion, bolts and bumper brackets the electricity would have to pass thru to make back to good ole NEG(-) up front at the battery.

[Bloo]

While I do not have that particular socket housing type here to look at, I would just like to point out that on MANY sockets of the period, a steel socket is attached by crimping to an aluminum reflector, and the ground fails where the socket is permanently attached to the reflector. It LOOKS fine, but doesn't work.

 

If that proves to be the problem, the ground wire you add must go all the way from a grounding point to the steel socket. Just to the aluminum reflector is not good enough. The wire is best attached to the steel socket by soldering. You may from time to time see where someone has drilled a hole and driven in a screw between the steel socket and the aluminum reflector, right at the crimp. It is an attempt to fix the bad connection. A better, less destructive way for people who don't solder is to attach the ground wire to the outside of the socket with a small hose clamp.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

53 minutes ago, Bloo said:

A better, less destructive way for people who don't solder is to attach the ground wire to the outside of the socket with a small hose clamp.

 

Sir, had a rough time getting the solder to stick to the bulb socket. I read up on soldering, watched um teen videos on how to solder. I gave on the soldering and found an 1157 metal socket with a pig tail. I lengthened the pig tail and grounded on the trunk support for the trunk latch. 
Grounding in automotive I believe goes engine block to body (firewall in case of 63 on ground strap on left one ground strap on right. Now obviously I have battery grounded to the power steering assembly. I’ve heard there is yet another set of wires from the battery that ground the body? I’m not clear on grounding the car body. I’m a believer in good grounds and strong clean electrical

connections. I’ve met one fellow that makes all dead runs. He will not piece in an electrical connection. I’ll never fault a man for quality work.

Turbinator

[Turbinator]

7 hours ago, protrash63 said:

think I will add a ground in behind the nuts that attach the housings to the bumper and eventually tie it to the frame...bypassing all the chrome, corrosion, bolts and bumper brackets the electricity would have to pass thru to make back to good ole NEG(-) up front at the battery.

Pro/ if you have a 63 the gas tank sender does not have a ground wire. My pal Tom T added a ground wire on the 63 tank sender in an effort to get the gas gauge read right. Tom knowing what he was doing on adjusting the float arm on the sender AND the ground has the gas gauge working as it should. Not hard but does require patience and trial an error. We got’er done.

Turbinator

[protrash63]

3 minutes ago, Turbinator said:

Pro/ if you have a 63 the gas tank sender does not have a ground wire. My pal Tom T added a ground wire on the 63 tank sender in an effort to get the gas gauge read right. Tom knowing what he was doing on adjusting the float arm on the sender AND the ground has the gas gauge working as it should. Not hard but does require patience and trial an error. We got’er done.

Turbinator

Really?  They let that ground by association as well?  I thought they were looking for places to add weight on these beasts!  😄

[Turbinator]

1 minute ago, protrash63 said:

Really

Pro- the truth with a capital T. Now the 64 has ground wire on the gas tank for the gas gauge. Tom T told me while we were doing the job. Tom T had a 64.

Turbinator

[Bloo]

I agree that soldering on those sockets is a giant PITA, and why I mentioned the hose clamp.

 

The current flows in a circle from the (+) source to the (-) ground.

 

When the car is off, both are on the battery. When the car is running, that's (+) at the big post on the alternator, and (-) at the alternator case. Getting back to (-) with the fewest restrictions is desirable.

 

On most cars both the body and engine must be grounded. Sometimes the frame is too. Huge cables are used for starter current (in the same sort of a circle from battery to starter and back) On a typical GM car with an alternator, the body ground is a small wire on the negative cable at the battery post end. I can't at this moment remember if the first gen. RIviera is like that but I suspect it is. If it isn't at the battery (-) it would need to be a strap or cable from the engine/trans/ps etc. to the body.

 

I'd never fault anyone for making home runs with grounds. I do it sometimes. I also always ground the fuel sender. They need it.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Bloo (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

While I do not have that particular socket housing type here to look at, I would just like to point out that on MANY sockets of the period, a steel socket is attached by crimping to an aluminum reflector, and the ground fails where the socket is permanently attached to the reflector. It LOOKS fine, but doesn't work.

 

If that proves to be the problem, the ground wire you add must go all the way from a grounding point to the steel socket. Just to the aluminum reflector is not good enough. The wire is best attached to the steel socket by soldering. You may from time to time see where someone has drilled a hole and driven in a screw between the steel socket and the aluminum reflector, right at the crimp. It is an attempt to fix the bad connection. A better, less destructive way for people who don't solder is to attach the ground wire to the outside of the socket with a small hose clamp.

 

 

Jim,

  I was taught by a Delco engineer to always make a good mechanical connection before applying solder. His opinion was that solder is not necessarily the best conductor and is used not to create an electrical pathway but to stabilize the mechanical connection.

  You can imagine servicing heavy duty diesel powered vehicles with 4 batteries on board  that we made up alot of battery and jumper cables. Some techs would place the cable end into a battery terminal and fill the terminal with solder and call it done. A much better method was to first crimp the terminal onto the cable end creating a mechanical connection and then stabilize the union with solder.  This is my long winded way of saying I'd be OK with using a screw first to make a ground wire connection.

Tom

[RivNut]

I dropped the tank on my 64 to get to the bottom side of the trunk.  Before reinstalling, I under coated the bottom of the trunk floor, tank straps, and repainted the tank. I knew that I had destroyed any kind of an association path to ground.  I pulled the sending unit and installed a new sock put before reinstalling the sending unit, I made up a wire with crimped and soldered connectors on each end. On one end of the wire, I put the connector around one of the mounting screws for the sending unit. On the other end, I stuck a self threading sheet metal screw through the connector then screwed it into a new hole I drilled into the floor board. Fresh metal everywhere and no worries about losing my ground because of bad association. Two small braided cables bolted to the block and screwed to the firewall make sure that there are no association gaps in the circuitry.