Removing ancient tires

[1912Staver]

Ed's great thread on his White mentions installing new tubes and flaps. This means he has to dismount tires that probably have not been off the rims in anywhere up to 75 years or so. Is there a good way to do this ?

 

I have just finished removing a very old tire from a Model AA . As far as I can see there was just no way of doing this without destroying the tire. I would have saved the tire if I could have , strictly as a display piece . There was a 2 " or so split in the inner side wall so it was of no further posible road use even if I could have gotton it 

off the rim intact. 

The flap has shrunk and completely filled the space inside the bead seat rings of the sidewalls. In order to remove the side ring of the wheel you have to push the outer sidewall inwards enough that you can use a rim tool and remove the side ring. Between the flap and the rust in between the tire and the rim there is simply no way the side wall

tire is going to move at all. Like it is welded in place. It doesn't help these are 10 ply truck tires and a good 60 + years old at that.

I had to cut the sidewalls on each side with a sawsall, and remove the outer tread, an old " boot ' repair where the sidewall damage was, the inner tube and the flap. The sidewalls still would not budge. I had to cut the sidewall right through to release the outer sidewall. Then I could remove the sidering. And with a sharp prybar sever the bead wires from the inside. 

I cant see there being any way to do any of this without sacrificing either the rim or the tire. I am sure they all came apart properly when they were 5 or even 10 years old  but this style of rim is often nearly 100 years old.

I have another , quite a bit older one to dismount next, one of my 27" universal rim style wheel and tire assemblys . Once again I see no way of doing this without destroying the rock hard 90 year old tire. Any tips or suggestions ?

Edited August 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

An old style bumper jack makes a great bead breaker.

[1912Staver]

Padgett, I apreciate the suggestion but these were WAY beyond a bead breaker. A 10 ton bottle jack and my 1946 2 ton GMC truck were  used  as a improvised press. It deflected the sidewall a bit but just raised the truck in the air. Any space where the tire could move inwards was filled by the shrunken and very hard flap.

As well there was a combination of rust on the rim and swelling of the bead area of the tire due to the bead wires rusting over the decades . What should have been a close but loose fit had turned into a serious interference fit. Nothing was going to move before I physically severed the bead wires.

 

Greg

Edited August 20, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[padgett]

You had the same idea, guess once past a certain age they get set in their ways.

[trini]

Staver, you have a job on your hands. Let me explain my experience first . The rim on my 1928 Dodge Brothers is somewhat similar to yours except it does not have a locking ring. The wheel was in an accident and the steel rim got twisted , locking the tyre so tight that I could not collapse the rim to remove the tyre. So I foolishly took a hacksaw and cut about 4 inches off the steel rim.After removing the tyre I discovered the rim was twisted So I threw it out. Later on I read in the Hemmings car magazine there is a gentleman down the US who straightens most any type of rim. Tyers are available, but not rims. I have been trying for about 10 years to find an original style rim with no luck. It is hoarding.

So the moral of the story is do not under  any circumstance damage your steel parts . Accoring to the picture of the wheel there is a lock ring to hold the tyre There are folks out  there who will hoarde those rims and will not sell any to you. Fat chance if any will do.

My stupid suggestion is use a1 inch paint brush and soak the lock rim with some muriatic acid . Moniter it closely . Tap the ring  a few times around to help it get loose. Use a pry bar to remove the ring and quickly wash away the acid with baking soda and water. WARNING : DEFLATE TYRE BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO REMOVE . 

Such rims were in use about 20 years ago in Canada and few tyre men got killed mostly by the lock rings not seated properly before inflating. Now it is illegal to use that style of rim. The current style is Bud rims with tubeless tyres . So when you are ready to install new tyres make  sure the ring and seat are properly machined to match each other.

Good luck and have a nice day

Cheers.

Harry in Thornhill, Ontario. 

[1912Staver]

Hi Harry ! This a is a Ford AA wheel. It's one of the few wheels of this type that are still reasonably common. I have several spares although this being the wet Pacific North West they all have a degree of rusting. It must be nice for the people who live in places like Arizona to be able to find old metal parts like wheels that have little to no rust.

They don't use a lock ring { 3 piece wheel } like the Firestones on my Packard 2 ton.  Rim[ 1 ]  full circle side ring [ 2 ] and lock ring [3] .  Just a split side  ring with a groove that locks into a corresponding groove in the main part of the wheel. 

What make are the rims on your Dodge Bros ? It's unlikely but I may have a spare. I am having a big clean up and reorganisation of my parts and project cars. About 30 various teens and 20's rims to sort and find new homes for. Most are wood and steel fellow car rims but a few truck as well.

 

Greg

[28 Chrysler]

I think this bald 1930s tire is harder and stiffer than the rim.

I can't imagine trying to get it off in one main piece.

[Akstraw]

I had a similar situation on an AA truck wheel.  I just took the sawzall and made one radial cut through the whole tire, cutting through the slot in the lock ring on the front.  On the back side, I cut through an inch or so of the rim in order to sever the tire bead, and just welded that up afterward.  Not an elegant solution, but efficient.  Tire came right off with a little assistance on the bead from an air chisel.

[1912Staver]

That's sort of what I did except I took a more round about way. I was trying to avoid cutting the inside flange of the rim as necessary in the way you chose.  It wasn't a huge job to cut the 

tread portion away from the sidewalls. Sawzall's work reasonably well on old, age  hardened tires.

 

Greg

[edinmass]

I’m impressed you got it apart.......I would have cut it off also. It’s not easy cutting tires off of rims.......unfortunately I have lots of experience. I grew up in a motorcycle shop when all tires were changed by hand........I literately have changed thousands of tires........I just don’t notice it anymore.........except I tend to bleed and am sore for days when working on them like the ones in the photos........took the rear tires off the White today..........will start the first two tomorrow night ..........I’ll put the radio on and start working away.......I’m more upset at the 950 dollars for flaps and tubes than I am about changing six tires! Lots more to report on my thread.......👍👍👍

[1912Staver]

That is a lot of money for flaps and tubes ! Is that typical for the larger sizes these days ? Hopefully top notch quality.

Are the tires on the White still reasonably pliable ? I suppose they must be if you have already managed to remove two of them. 

 

Greg

Edited August 21, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[trini]

The reason I suggested to use  muriatic acid is the quickest penetrating liquid. DO IT OUTSIDE, AWAY FROM OTHER METAL STUFF AND NEVER IN THE GARAGE CONFINES. You may also use the liquid wrench to cut the wire. It will smoke a little but that is ok. Always use some rubber grease when installing tyres. The saws all is a lifesaver, I concur. New rubbers you can buy but hardware sometimes can be impossible to come by.

To Staver my friend I removed the wheels, all 4, and preparing to send them to Calimer Wood shop to have the spokes replaced. There are no markings on the rims as to who made them. On the steel fellows all I can find is WHEELCO. INC. DETROIT, MICH.   but one of the tyres has Eaton of Canada  brand name on it. If you are old enough you will remember Eaton was a mail order store and they sold their brand name tyre by mail.

The wheel is 19 inch and the tyre size is 500/650 x 19. The rim is 4 and a half inches in diameter. Probably the same size as used on Graham trucks. I am just guessing.  I have in my picture file pictures  the profile of the rim .I will look for them and post them on this forum later. My email is hsahu8034@gmail.com

Cheers.

Enjoy your weekend.

Harry  . 

[edinmass]

The two are only off the car, not of the rim! They are a special made set and are fine.......usually I will never run any tire over five years old. A new set would be five grand.......which I am ok with, after ai have it running, sorted, and dependable. I refuse to drive slow cars, except my Ford T. I like drivable machines that can keep up with modern traffic. I’m quite sure this car will be fine. I’m going to ha e to get my upholstery guy down here for a week, flight, hotel, and labor..........so I rather put the five grand into stabilizing the top, rugs, and leather. I can upgrade ties as my last item on the punch list.

Edited August 21, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)