PhilAndrews Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 A new arrival today prompted me to remove my distributor. I stripped it down enough to be able to change out the swashplate for the points. I may have become a little carried away and cleaned the ride and remains of old paint off. Got a coat of new paint on and left it to dry. Refit comes a little later on tonight, hopefully. Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 Oooh! Twin points. No wobble. No hesitation, no backfires. Nice. Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 9 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: No hesitation, no backfires. Nice. Good to hear! Where does one acquire dual points? I have a few gremlins hiding around and I'm wondering if this would help get some of them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 10:43 PM, PhilAndrews said: Oooh! Twin points. No wobble. No hesitation, no backfires. Nice. Phil Yes, sure looks familiar, my 1955 287 Pontiac distributor with the same dual points conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 15 hours ago, Summershandy said: Good to hear! Where does one acquire dual points? I have a few gremlins hiding around and I'm wondering if this would help get some of them out. hello, Philip bought my last extra nos aftermarket dual points and breaker plate assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 On 2/21/2020 at 8:31 AM, Summershandy said: Good to hear! Where does one acquire dual points? I have a few gremlins hiding around and I'm wondering if this would help get some of them out. Wherever you can find them, I think. I got lucky. What gremlins do you have though? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 My horn push badge was all faded and horrible from the sun. I pulled it to bits and had a go at restoring it. Plastic is still all crazed but it's a lot better to look at now. Quite happy with that Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: What gremlins do you have though? At times (not every time) I have a hesitation at take off. If I don't feather the throttle it can stall. I've tried both light and heavy throttle. I naturally feather it now when I take off from a stop or red light. Another is after a good hour of cruising around town or on the highway, the engine feels like it's lightly missing. The engine is telling me that's good for the day and it's time to head home. I've cleaned, rebuilt and adjusted the carb best I can. Fuel pump is rebuilt with all new lines and filter. All new plugs/points and wires. All vacuum lines are new and tight. I've pretty much tried everything I've read on this forum aside of an engine rebuild. I can still make it to the shows and go for Sunday cruises without a break down. Sometimes if it ain't broke......I can live with my gremlins and thought maybe dual or electronic ignition could improve performance by the sounds of your results. Edited February 23, 2020 by Summershandy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 Off load in neutral will it rev like I did mine in that most recent video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 I can only go by memory as my car is in storage. I think it would still hesitate off load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 That leaves only a few things. Poor mixture (air leak or under-/over-fueling) Poor spark Poor compression Mine would randomly lose compression when hot, but you could hear the valves getting all clicky as they were getting sticky. I also had a new spark plug that was cracked on the nose that was causing intermittent misfire too. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 1 hour ago, PhilAndrews said: Poor mixture (air leak or under-/over-fueling) Poor spark Poor compression I still attribute it to the carburetor Thought dual points or electronics would make a better spark My compression is on the low side when hot but everything still sounds good. I would imagine the engine could use a rebuild one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) IMHO get it running right on the single points first. More levels of complication just make your life harder when the car is not running quite right yet. Dual points (and electronic ignition) do have advantages, but nothing you would notice in normal driving if the points ignition is working properly, and just set up. Thats especially true on something like a Pontiac Eight. It doesn't turn fast enough to show the driver a difference. Dual points (and electronic ignition) will run more miles without any adjustments to the ignition or carb. Dual points should be an advantage over the long term. Electronic ignition, while theoretically better, seems to produce nothing but bad reviews on 6 volt cars. Edited February 23, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 I agree- I only changed this because the swashplate had been butchered and was loose enough to tilt and cause the points to close up. As you hear, it is actually quite a lively engine for what it is. It'll rev up hard if you ask it to if it is set up right. Are your valve clearances set right? The original valves have a significant coefficient of expansion (which is why I am running stainless valves, they expand much less) and if you have them adjusted tight then they'll not seal and you'll end up with a hot misfire. I found doing them is difficult without a set of go-no-go feelers (available online, Lisle make a nice set). I would definitely get a compression gauge and test both hot and cold compression. Valve job isn't difficult but takes time and is fiddly. I found that to be the most worthwhile rebuild on the engine yet. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Not sure why one would add the complexity of dual points unless trailered race car. If you should decide on an electronic whizbang, upgrade from your generator to an alternator FIRST. If you decide not to get the alternator, and do get the electronic whizbang, don't call when you have an erratic or no idle. Jon. Edited February 23, 2020 by carbking (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, carbking said: Not sure why one would add the complexity of dual points unless trailered race car. It's what was available in my case. But, also my car is running 12V on an alternator too. Electronic doodads really do not like the constant switching of the high-voltage cutout on the regulator for a dynamo; the gradiated electronic regulator of an alternator is mich more smooth despite it being more RF noisy. A looped ferrite core on the output lead helps significantly for that. I know originality etc but heck, alternators are so much better that dynamo generators, particularly on a slow-turning engine. Phil Edited February 23, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Thanks gang, informative as always! I'll double check the points before summer. I always wanted to check the valve clearances. Maybe will do that one day too. I always thought that the engine should work as designed or they wouldn't have designed it to begin with. Adding "whizbangs" just doesn't seem right or turning a 6 volt into a 12 or converting drums to discs.....besides, where's all the fun in that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Valve clearances are critical on this engine, being as it it's slow and has a large overlap with a relatively soft cam- having them set wrong affects when they open by quite a margin. While not really perceptible at speed, it really makes a difference to low speed running and idle. Phil Edited February 23, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 10 hours ago, carbking said: Not sure why one would add the complexity of dual points unless trailered race car. If you should decide on an electronic whizbang, upgrade from your generator to an alternator FIRST. If you decide not to get the alternator, and do get the electronic whizbang, don't call when you have an erratic or no idle. Jon. no complexity to going with dual points, first point does the opening, second point does the closing equals less wear on the points, gap adjustment last longer, and the coil builds up max voltage. I prefer old school technology in automotive ignition system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 A Pontiac 8 doesn't turn fast enough to really take advantage of the extra coil charging time, so the chief advantage of dual points will be that they will run a lot longer between tune ups. That would be a good reason too do it. On the other hand thinking dual points might solve driveability problems is a recipe for disappointment. It wont help, and it might complicate efforts to find the original problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) Thinking on the original complaint, it may just be something as simple as a failing coil; sudden change in timing and combustion pressure may be causing the spark to blow out when pressing the gas to pull away (vacuum advance kicks in when coming off idle). Coupled with heat soak after a long run making it break down and become unreliable. I would say pull a plug and spin it over when you can, take a look at the spark and see if it's a good strong bluish white, if it's bordering on orange, change the coil and try again. If not, try tweak the distributor clockwise a fraction and see if it improves... Phil Edited February 24, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: I would say pull a plug and spin it over when you can, take a look at the spark and see if it's a good strong bluish white, if it's bordering on orange, change the coil and try again. You know now that I think about it, I think that's the coil that came with the car. I pretty much replaced everything but that. I remember taking off the NAPA sticker on it so I assumed it was a newer part. It never hurts to replace old with new especially when it don't break the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 6 hours ago, Bloo said: A Pontiac 8 doesn't turn fast enough to really take advantage of the extra coil charging time, so the chief advantage of dual points will be that they will run a lot longer between tune ups. That would be a good reason too do it. On the other hand thinking dual points might solve driveability problems is a recipe for disappointment. It wont help, and it might complicate efforts to find the original problem. a Pontiac 8 doesn't turn fast enough ?, 4,000 rpms isn't fast enough ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 4 hours ago, pontiac1953 said: a Pontiac 8 doesn't turn fast enough ?, 4,000 rpms isn't fast enough ? 4000? I've never had mine above 3000. No idea what the max sustainable RPM is but I'll take reliability and longevity, thanks. --Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Do you spin it 4000 very often? I was advised by more than one Eight owner to keep it under 3000 for extended periods. Nevertheless, I did not mean any sort of slight to the Pontiac 8. I am a fan of that engine. Even at 4000 rpm on an 8 cylinder I can't imagine having too much trouble keeping a decent spark with a single point ignition. Over 5500rpm it might be really sketchy. I'm not arguing against dual points either. If one of those dual-point aftermarket breaker plates were ever made for my 1936 Pontiac 6, I would be very interested. The 6 cyl. kits I see only fit the distributor Pontiac used from 1937 forward. What I am suggesting is that it is unlikely to fix anything that setting up the stock ignition wouldn't fix. Also, that if you miss somehow setting up the new dual points setup, you have added a second problem and may not know it. If you start with a good running car, you can instantly tell if something is not quite right with the new setup. To paraphrase (heavily) 1990s ignition guru Christopher Jacobs, "The best thing an ignition system can do for you is light the fuel on time, every single time. If the engine is running well, you are already 98 percent there." In other words, beware of any claims of large percentage gains in horsepower, gas mileage, or driveability from an aftermarket ignition system. This coming from a guy who, by the time he said it, was selling aftermarket ignition systems.... All the best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 7 hours ago, Summershandy said: It never hurts to replace old with new especially when it don't break the bank. The only time it hurts is the time it dosen't solve a problem that you have. Then you don't know for sure whether it is aiding or abetting the problem. I have seen many people change too many things at one time and almost making it impossible to solve the real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summershandy Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tinindian said: I have seen many people change too many things at one time and almost making it impossible to solve the real problem I do agree. That's why before my car was road worthy but knowing the engine ran, I decided to rebuild/replace as many parts that I could before heading out and test driving it. I was never a fan of just driving a used vehicle not knowing how good the parts could be, especially a 65 year old one. My coil was one item that was overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 7 hours ago, PhilAndrews said: 4000? I've never had mine above 3000. No idea what the max sustainable RPM is but I'll take reliability and longevity, thanks. --Phil I have had my 53 268 with 3.08 gears up to 97 mph once, 80 mph was 3016 rpms, 90 was 3393 rpms, I think my 59 389 engine going into my 53 and changing the gears to 3.23 at 90 mph the rpms would be 3555 a long ways down from a 6500 rpms reline. 97 mph works out to be my old 53 268 was turning 3657 rpms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 I have a mysterious benefactor! This arrived in the mail today, which looks absolutely excellent. Thank you! Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 35 minutes ago, PhilAndrews said: I have a mysterious benefactor! This arrived in the mail today, which looks absolutely excellent. Thank you! Phil awesome gift. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 12:05 AM, pontiac1953 said: Yes, sure looks familiar, my 1955 287 Pontiac distributor with the same dual points conversion. I was able to find and buy a nos Mallory dual point conversion for 1950 to 1956 Pontiac distributors, even came with the nos big trash can condenser that Mallory made. can't wait to get it in the mailbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PONTIAC1953 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 6 hours ago, pontiac1953 said: I was able to find and buy a nos Mallory dual point conversion for 1950 to 1956 Pontiac distributors, even came with the nos big trash can condenser that Mallory made. can't wait to get it in the mailbox. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 3, 2020 Author Share Posted March 3, 2020 The ball race is between the plates to allow the vacuum motor to operate smoothly? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) Yes. One should be sure there is grease/oil on the balls and races so they don't rust. Ball bearings are more mechanically stable. Factory setups with ball bearings had trouble due to rust and wear (usually caused by lack of maintenance), and in some designs the damage would be to the housing itself. The factory systems on some makes switched from bearings to a pivot. Pivot systems last a lot longer when neglected, but the dwell changes when the vacuum advance moves. That looks like a very nice high-quality piece in the pictures. Edited March 3, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 8, 2020 Author Share Posted March 8, 2020 I refitted the slam panel, found some appropriate bolts and fitted the hood latch, connected the cable up and got it all adjusted. For the first time since I've owned it the hood now latches! Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 16, 2020 Author Share Posted March 16, 2020 Ordered a decent set of plug wires. USA made, said the description. Made in Mexico, says the box. Oh well. They'll be better than what's on the car right now, for sure. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 My spark wire carrier was all dented up courtesy of the previous keeper (engine must've fallen over onto it) so I took it apart and beat on it with hammers. Question for y'all, what shape should the lower part of the distributor lead-out there be? A mirrored curve or a flat piece? Mine is missing and I've no idea what it should look like to make another. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 This picture is the best I could find. Looks probably flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Its curved to match the top piece. Keeps the wires in line.. ill get ya a picture with some dimentions later today... John. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bloo said: This picture is the best I could find. Looks probably flat. Yeah, I'd found a couple pictures like that but all a bit inconclusive. Thank you though! I may end up making a flat piece, we'll see. Unless somebody has a spare? Phil Edited March 21, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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