Main Bearing shims in Babbit Bearings

[Hubert_25-25]

I just had new babbitts installed in the mains and connecting rods of my 1925 Buick.  The connecting rods came shimmed and bored to size for the crankshaft from Egge.  The machinist installed the main bearings with no shims and line bored the engine.  He said no shims came with the bearings so he didn't think it needed any.  When I called Egge, they said they supplied the shims for the connecting rods, but not for the mains, because they did not know what size they would need to make them.  What's done is done, although I am a little frustrated, but this is old stuff and not everyone knows what to do.     

Does anyone have any experience with how long an engine rebuild would last before needing shims removed, because it sounds like that is when I would need my next rebuild as I have no main shims to remove.  Do the mains last any longer than the connecting rods?  Modern oils should help the situation over the oils of the past.   Has anyone had to remove shims after a rebuild, and at how many miles.  Was it because of low oil pressure if you did remove shims?    

Thank you,   Hugh

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Suggest you install a good oil filter, a bypass will do as well as a full flow. Use synthetic oil and you should get 100,000 miles or more out of it. How many miles a year do you drive?

 

Do not use heavy oil.

[chistech]

Rebuilt my 32’ Olds 6 cylinder a few months back. The rods were shot but the crank and mains are still perfect. The Olds didn’t use main shims but instead recommended lapping the caps to take up any excess. My 31’ Chevy has shims on both the mains and rods. I assume Egge rebabbitted your main bearing shells. The machine shop line bored your engine to fit those new bearings to your crank. If it’s a pressurized oil system, many mains had no shims. Most dipper/splash type oilers had shims. I would think a 25’ Buick would be a splash/dipper system but don’t know for sure. Depending on what the manual says is what most engine rebuilders do. Not real confident in his answer of his knowledge but not many even know how to line bore these days so he has to know something. Most cranks “hang” on the caps so many manufacturers like Olds recommended lapping the caps as it’s the cap that wears. These days the Babbitt material is so much better than it was when these engines were originally built so I doubt most of us will ever have to adjust the shims or Lapp our mains in our lifetimes. If the clearance is correct don’t worry about it. Don’t forget to run a zinc additive in your engine oil as today’s oils don’t supply enough lubricity without it for Babbitt.  

[Owen_Dyneto]

Just the simple absence of shims wouldn't concern me if everything else is up to snuff,  many cars, Packard among them, never used shims in the first place.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Don't worry about zinc if you use synthetic oil. 0W or 5W-30. If you want to use mineral oil, use a CI-4 diesel oil for maximum zinc, but it doesn't matter much for an engine of that design and lowly stressed.

[Hubert_25-25]

Thanks for the great responses.  The Buick has a pressurized oil feed system, but there is no oil filter.  The oil filter was added in 1926.  i do plan to run a lightweight synthetic oil.   I have had my Jaguar for 20 years, and put 10,000 miles on it, so maybe 500 miles a year is all it will see. 

 

[herm111]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:55 PM, chistech said:

Rebuilt my 32’ Olds 6 cylinder a few months back. The rods were shot but the crank and mains are still perfect. The Olds didn’t use main shims but instead recommended lapping the caps to take up any excess. My 31’ Chevy has shims on both the mains and rods. I assume Egge rebabbitted your main bearing shells. The machine shop line bored your engine to fit those new bearings to your crank. If it’s a pressurized oil system, many mains had no shims. Most dipper/splash type oilers had shims. I would think a 25’ Buick would be a splash/dipper system but don’t know for sure. Depending on what the manual says is what most engine rebuilders do. Not real confident in his answer of his knowledge but not many even know how to line bore these days so he has to know something. Most cranks “hang” on the caps so many manufacturers like Olds recommended lapping the caps as it’s the cap that wears. These days the Babbitt material is so much better than it was when these engines were originally built so I doubt most of us will ever have to adjust the shims or Lapp our mains in our lifetimes. If the clearance is correct don’t worry about it. Don’t forget to run a zinc additive in your engine oil as today’s oils don’t supply enough lubricity without it for Babbitt.  

Babbitt today is the same,  as it was when new. No better, no worse.

 

Herm. 

[herm111]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 4:37 PM, Hubert_25-25 said:

I just had new babbitts installed in the mains and connecting rods of my 1925 Buick.  The connecting rods came shimmed and bored to size for the crankshaft from Egge.  The machinist installed the main bearings with no shims and line bored the engine.  He said no shims came with the bearings so he didn't think it needed any.  When I called Egge, they said they supplied the shims for the connecting rods, but not for the mains, because they did not know what size they would need to make them.  What's done is done, although I am a little frustrated, but this is old stuff and not everyone knows what to do.     

Does anyone have any experience with how long an engine rebuild would last before needing shims removed, because it sounds like that is when I would need my next rebuild as I have no main shims to remove.  Do the mains last any longer than the connecting rods?  Modern oils should help the situation over the oils of the past.   Has anyone had to remove shims after a rebuild, and at how many miles.  Was it because of low oil pressure if you did remove shims?    

Thank you,   Hugh

 

I would think if the rods had shims, the mains would also. You can tell by taking the inserts out, and bolting the cap on, and measure in the inside, up and down, and side ways. What ever the difference is, if any, is what the mains had for a shim pack thickness.

 

From 1929, on up, and through the 1940's, Buick rods, and mains had .006 thousandths for, Rods, and Mains.

 

The longevity all depends  on how well the work was done, and the owners care of the engine.

 

Herm.

[chistech]

29 minutes ago, herm111 said:

Babbitt today is the same,  as it was when new. No better, no worse.

 

Herm. 

I was told that the alloys varied quite a bit between babbitters years ago with some using more or less tin and metallurgy  today has better quality control than 80 years ago.  Today’s electronic temperature controls also help contribute to a better Babbitt by maintaining the Babbitt material at a more precise temperature don’t they? Can you help me understand why most 32’ Olds owners have found perfect main bearings in their engines but all the rod bearings crumbling and falling out. The mains also have a different color than the rods. Same material?

[herm111]

9 minutes ago, chistech said:

I was told that the alloys varied quite a bit between babbitters years ago with some using more or less tin and metallurgy  today has better quality control than 80 years ago.  Today’s electronic temperature controls also help contribute to a better Babbitt by maintaining the Babbitt material at a more precise temperature don’t they? Can you help me understand why most 32’ Olds owners have found perfect main bearings in their engines but all the rod bearings crumbling and falling out. The mains also have a different color than the rods. Same material?

There are many different Babbitt formulas, the same as it always has been. But, there are  essentially two different kinds ,of  Babbitt, Lead, and Tin Babbitt. During the war, the government had most of the tin, so bearing builders used lead.

 

Now, in Lead Babbitt, there is less then 5, 10% of tin, and does nothing for the Babbitt. In Tin base Babbitt,, say Fords Grade of 86-7-7. The tin is what makes the bearing strong,   Antimony that does its best to hold everything together, and Copper that gives it wearing  qualities.

 

Lead will last a long if you keep the R.P.M's down,  But Tin is better by far,  and a  square inch of Tin, compressed to 14,000 pounds will be pressed less then 2%.

 

Yes,  Automatic Temperature controls, that is a good point, Mr. Chistech. A very large percent today of auto babbitters do not have temperature controlled melting pots.  You can't pour good bearings with out them. Pouring good bearings is all about, Temperature, Temperature, Temperature!  This carries over in heating your Jig, and what you use to heat it with, and the rate of cool.

 

Ok, Material in your mains, if you have a very dark color Babbitt in a bearing, it is probably lead, if shiny, or brighter, would be Tin.

 

Just about 90% of the time, bad bearings come from the Babbitt not sticking to the Tinning. it also could be oil, or lack of it, Flat crank, to much engine, missed shifts, ect.

 

Mains will last a long time, if every thing is right, as the mains just turn in a Merry circle, while the Rods start and stop, top and bottom, and then you also have the Power stroke, which is a lot of pressure, on bearing, and crank.

 

The last thing, don't let anybody tell you that Babbitt is no good, as we have poured thousandths of bearings in 54 years, and still have never had a bad bearing.

 

The bearings that come apart in a short time, is nothing but bad workmanship!

 

Thanks,

 

Herm.

 

 

[JFranklin]

My model A Ford got what I was told "Diesel tin babbitt" I was happy with the results. I also was looking for a shop to re-do a rod and ran across a shop that does about any babbitt work and even showed fan jet rotors they do I was impressed. One more, I talked to a fellow at a farm machinery"steam-up" that repaired the missing chunks on the mains on his running hit&miss engine with JB Weld! 

[chistech]

Thanks for that knowledge Herm. Yes, the mains were bright colored and the rods more lead like coloring on my Olds. By your description it sounds like Olds used two different mixtures in their Babbitt. Possibly it has something to do with the depression and the very low production numbers for Olds that year but I could just be reaching on that. The 32’ Olds had a very long stroke so I’m sure it was more of the pounding and the weight of the old cast iron pistons taking their toll. The crank was supposedly factory  balanced and during my recent rebuild my machine shop told me the crank was dead on as far as balance so I’m sure that had to have helped the mains stay in good shape. 

      I’m not afraid of Babbitt one bit and when I was a kid my dad had a model T engine rebuilt. The guy poured the bearings and did all his machining right in his basement. He had the engine dolly set up on tracks that were layed on his cellar bulkhead stairs. He used a boat hand winch to lower the motor into his cellar. He had quite the operation. That motor ran perfectly, never gave one issue, and that old depot hack would go like a speedster. Talking with someone recently and I mentioned the above scenario and they knew right away who I was talking about. They told me he was considered one of the best. I believe he lived in Randolph MA.

[herm111]

2 hours ago, chistech said:

Thanks for that knowledge Herm. Yes, the mains were bright colored and the rods more lead like coloring on my Olds. By your description it sounds like Olds used two different mixtures in their Babbitt. Possibly it has something to do with the depression and the very low production numbers for Olds that year but I could just be reaching on that. The 32’ Olds had a very long stroke so I’m sure it was more of the pounding and the weight of the old cast iron pistons taking their toll. The crank was supposedly factory  balanced and during my recent rebuild my machine shop told me the crank was dead on as far as balance so I’m sure that had to have helped the mains stay in good shape. 

      I’m not afraid of Babbitt one bit and when I was a kid my dad had a model T engine rebuilt. The guy poured the bearings and did all his machining right in his basement. He had the engine dolly set up on tracks that were layed on his cellar bulkhead stairs. He used a boat hand winch to lower the motor into his cellar. He had quite the operation. That motor ran perfectly, never gave one issue, and that old depot hack would go like a speedster. Talking with someone recently and I mentioned the above scenario and they knew right away who I was talking about. They told me he was considered one of the best. I believe he lived in Randolph MA.

The only bearings you would have gotten from Olds, would have been Tin base, and that would have been Babbitt Grade No. 11. They had to have been replaced at one time. Federal-Mogul, built bearings using Tin Base, but when pouring used bearings they used Lead, trade name Stonewall Babbitt, by United American Metals.

 

I like hearing those old stories, always has been interesting, to me.

 

First Pictures are of Tin Base Babbitt, for a Peerles 6 Cylinder Continental, K-4. You can see the difference in the Babbitt color.

 

The next bearings are old Babbitt, which had been poured with lead, and a very poor job, at that, by a shop that has been pouring Babbitt for years. These are the kind of shops that give Babbitt a bad name. These bearings had less then a hundred miles on them.

 

The last is from a 1928 Chevy, showing Tin Base Babbitt Mains, after Align Boring.

 

Babbitt was used on thousands, of race cars, for 60 years, and they never had bearing trouble. 

 

Thanks,

 

Herm.

[herm111]

6 hours ago, JFranklin said:

My model A Ford got what I was told "Diesel tin babbitt" I was happy with the results. I also was looking for a shop to re-do a rod and ran across a shop that does about any babbitt work and even showed fan jet rotors they do I was impressed. One more, I talked to a fellow at a farm machinery"steam-up" that repaired the missing chunks on the mains on his running hit&miss engine with JB Weld! 

Your Babbitt is called Diesel Marine, although, it should work all right, it is made for Salt Water  applications,  where it is hard to lubricate.

 

Herm.

[chistech]

Herm, are you testing us to see if we're paying attention? You say the first pictures are from a Peerless 6 cyl but I see 8 rods in the picture? LOL

[herm111]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:39 PM, chistech said:

Herm, are you testing us to see if we're paying attention? You say the first pictures are from a Peerless 6 cyl but I see 8 rods in the picture? LOL

 

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:39 PM, chistech said:

Herm, are you testing us to see if we're paying attention? You say the first pictures are from a Peerless 6 cyl but I see 8 rods in the picture? LOL

Well, I think it is like my typing, I look at one Key, and hit another!!!!!!!!!!  LOL,   Herm.

Edited March 7, 2018 by herm111 (see edit history)