Wooly15 Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 I just switched from bias ply to radials on my 56 super and I'm looking for alignment specs. The manual has them for bias ply and the two shops I went to could only call up back to around 1966. My search didn't turn up anything definitive. Does anyone have the specs handy? thanks in advance, Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Just use the bias ply specs for now. Some radials will require more positive caster so that the steering will return to center after a turn. I had to do that on my 55 but a friend with a 56 had no problems. The next trick is to find an alignment shop that will work on adjusting camber and caster...take your service manual and show them how. Even then the shop could not get the eccentric at the end of the upper control arm to move with their puny little allen wrench. Not that hard to adjust the needed camber and caster yourself --- check back for details if needed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Even harder to find a shop that will do a kingpin suspension. All I ever wanted was a tie rod adjustment but noooo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooly15 Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 I will take my manual with me the next time. I always thought there was a big difference in the specs between the two tire types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Radials are more critical of "toe-in" than bias ply tires, generally. I'd aim for the "minimum spec" toe-in amount in the service manual with radials. Caster and Camber per taste and experience (as mentioned). When those cars were built, it was normal to have different caster specs for power steering or manual steering. The power steering might have had +1degree caster, as the manual steering would be more like 0degrees caster, or even "-1degree" caster. The more caster would allow for better self-centering after a turn, plus have "more effort" (which is why it had the positive setting with power steering) whereas the decreased caster was supposed to decrease steering effort (I have not had any experience, just read the manuals about that). Increased caster can also help straight-line stability on the highway. Back when highways had more "crown", you could put more caster on one front wheel than the other, so the steering wheel stayed more "in the center" under those conditions. But on a modern Interstate, you'd need to counter-steer to drive straight. Best, now, to have both sides pretty much the same. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Get some chalk and string and sticks and stay away from those places. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 How big of a deal is it actually to not mess with alignment after switching to radials? I am considering radials but may go with bias ply just to avoid a PITA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, lancemb said: How big of a deal is it actually to not mess with alignment after switching to radials? I am considering radials but may go with bias ply just to avoid a PITA. Just put the radials on and worry only if problems like steering not returning to center after a turn...then have an alignment done. I want you drive alot and no one is making quality bias ply any more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, old-tank said: Just put the radials on and worry only if problems like steering not returning to center after a turn...then have an alignment done. I want you drive alot and no one is making quality bias ply any more. Thanks that is what I was thinking. I am not worried about uneven wear unless it's severe, as these tires will likely get dry-rotted before they get worn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wooly15 Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 I'm in having iffy steering and this is one of the first things on my list to try. God knows when the last time it had one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 35 minutes ago, old-tank said: I want you drive alot and no one is making quality bias ply any more. Wasn't there a thread after Allentown about a few blow outs with the bias ply tires being made today and them not being DOT certified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I'll second the comment above on radials being more sensitive to toe-in. If I set toe-in to any more than 1/16" on any of my cars with radials, the outer edges start to wear funny. I think my '53 Special, however, is set at over 1/8" with bias-plies, and it couldn't care less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 10 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: Get some chalk and string and sticks and stay away from those places. ALL an "alignment" is is simple geometry. Measurements of distance and angles. There used to be an older guy that had an alignment shop, back in the early 1970s. My parents had his kids in school. I took our '69 Chevy pickup out to "get it done right". After he got the turntables out, he got out his toe-in stick and marked the center of the tread with the installed tool. He made sure the steering wheel was centered, then lowered the vehicle onto the turntables. After giving the bumper a good bounce, he measured the front marks' distance apart and moved the pointer on the stick. Then he did the same with the rear of the tire. That was "toe-in". Somewhere in the mix, he took off the wheel covers and grease cups on the front wheels. He attached a bubble "level" to the spindle on each side. He used the turntable to measure how far he moved the wheel, one direction, then the other. He noted where the bubble was at the prescribed degrees of movement (20 degrees each direction from center, I believe). The difference was the caster angle. Camber was where the bubble was with the wheels "straight ahead". It's all quite simple and completely "analog" in nature, BUT something you can do on a garage floor or a driveway. It does need to be reasonably smooth, side to side, though, some spring compression is the same on each side. The "toe stick" you can make with a couple of yard sticks and some nails. The camber/caster gauges you can buy for about $200.00 or so in Summit or Jegs. Turntables are extra. Rather than the calibrated-angle turntables, you might use a pair of the wheel dollies (to move cars around on) instead. Then, you can use your steering gear gear ratio to determine how much to turn the steering wheel each way. This would need a hard surface floor, and a smooth one at that. And it's these things that the newer computerized wheel alignment racks do in a matter of seconds! Many new car dealers are now doing "complimentary wheel alignment checks" on their service drive. Each wheel has a sensor which gently clamps onto the tread. The car is rocked forward and then rearward a certain amount. From that, the sensors generate a report of the vehicle's wheel alignment. Takes about a minute or two to do! I have a friend who grew up in the wheel alignment shop businesses. To get to the alignment pit, you drive across a Bear Toe-In machine! Then onto the pedastals in the pit. He has a fold-up level that he attaches to the wheel rim, rather than have to attach something to the spindle. About 25 years ago, the local Porsche dealer was getting alignment complaints. As Randy and his Dad has history with the local import car customers, they sent a few cars to him (which they were having shop come-backs on) to see what was wrong. The cars were all set the same, but incorrect, spec. Analog to check the accuracy of digital! Of course, it takes a good operator that knows what they are doing! Probably a good thing to network with other vintage or street rod vehicle owners in your area. It might take longer, but could also yield better general results. NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 10 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: Get some chalk and string and sticks and stay away from those places. ALL an "alignment" is is simple geometry. Measurements of distance and angles. There used to be an older guy that had an alignment shop, back in the early 1970s. My parents had his kids in school. I took our '69 Chevy pickup out to "get it done right". After he got the turntables out, he got out his toe-in stick and marked the center of the tread with the installed tool. He made sure the steering wheel was centered, then lowered the vehicle onto the turntables. After giving the bumper a good bounce, he measured the front marks' distance apart and moved the pointer on the stick. Then he did the same with the rear of the tire. That was "toe-in". Somewhere in the mix, he took off the wheel covers and grease cups on the front wheels. He attached a bubble "level" to the spindle on each side. He used the turntable to measure how far he moved the wheel, one direction, then the other. He noted where the bubble was at the prescribed degrees of movement (20 degrees each direction from center, I believe). The difference was the caster angle. Camber was where the bubble was with the wheels "straight ahead". It's all quite simple and completely "analog" in nature, BUT something you can do on a garage floor or a driveway. It does need to be reasonably smooth, side to side, though, some spring compression is the same on each side. The "toe stick" you can make with a couple of yard sticks and some nails. The camber/caster gauges you can buy for about $200.00 or so in Summit or Jegs. Turntables are extra. Rather than the calibrated-angle turntables, you might use a pair of the wheel dollies (to move cars around on) instead. Then, you can use your steering gear gear ratio to determine how much to turn the steering wheel each way. This would need a hard surface floor, and a smooth one at that. And it's these things that the newer computerized wheel alignment racks do in a matter of seconds! Many new car dealers are now doing "complimentary wheel alignment checks" on their service drive. Each wheel has a sensor which gently clamps onto the tread. The car is rocked forward and then rearward a certain amount. From that, the sensors generate a report of the vehicle's wheel alignment. Takes about a minute or two to do! I have a friend who grew up in the wheel alignment shop businesses. To get to the alignment pit, you drive across a Bear Toe-In machine! Then onto the pedastals in the pit. He has a fold-up level that he attaches to the wheel rim, rather than have to attach something to the spindle. About 25 years ago, the local Porsche dealer was getting alignment complaints. As Randy and his Dad has history with the local import car customers, they sent a few cars to him (which they were having shop come-backs on) to see what was wrong. The cars were all set the same, but incorrect, spec. Analog to check the accuracy of digital! Of course, it takes a good operator that knows what they are doing! Probably a good thing to network with other vintage or street rod vehicle owners in your area. It might take longer, but could also yield better general results. NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) In reality, there's NO real reason that modern computerized alignment racks can't do a vintage vehicle. There might be an issue if there is an input field for tire size, but considering that many "upgraded" vehicles and factory pickup trucks now come with wheels larger than 20", that issue might not be quite as much of an issue as in the past. IF their sensors can be attached to the wheels, everything else should operate just like the newer cars they are more used to seeing OR were trained on. That, at least will get you the information you need. Similarly, setting the toe-in would work the dame way, even if they don't have the "tool" to turn the tie rod sleeve to make the toe-in adjustment. So, THAT should get you an accurate toe-in setting, centered steering wheel, and knowledge of what the caster and camber measurements are. In many cases, if the car had a good alignment years ago and things worked well afterward, unless the suspension bushings have further deteriorated (which would need replacement to get a good alignment anyway!), nothing should have really changed. How well the car drives after that can be variable and can relate to other factors. As I mentioned, radials are more critical of toe-in, as bias ply tires are more critical of camber . . . with respect to long wear. With any type of tire construction, if either one are very far out of specs, tire wear will happen, especially with the blockier all-season tread designs. From there, you find the shop that can make any adjustments or repairs to the older vehicles. As mentioned, networking can be a big help or where to go or NOT to go. Plus parts availability. ANY mechanical repair shop has to "turn jobs" to make a profit. That generally means they want to do vehicles they have done before or need little work to fix AND they know how to fix. So many newer vehicles' suspensions are "remove and replace" rather than "remove and refurbish" (which can also mean the need for some special tools and such). So, unless they are equipped for older vehicles, many don't even want to touch them, lest "they own them" (for ever and ever), so to speak. Many modern cars are using McPherson struts on them, but many light-duty trucks use control arms, as many HD trucks use solid I-beam front axles (with king pins and bushings). Therefore, your quest for an alignment shop might be away from the normal realm of things! But you'll probably have to explain your vehicle's front suspension system to them as to how similar it might be to what they normally do, as far as rebuilding it might be. As far as making any adjustments to the alignment, that's another variable situation which might need some special tools or similar. THAT could get a little sticky, all things considered. But, as mentioned, with a GM/Buick factory chassis service manual and a willing co-conspirator in the alignment shop, you can probably get it done! Just some thoughts . . . NTX5467 Edited February 4, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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