1989 3800: Harmonic Balancer *fun*

[SpecialEducation]

Well, poor ol' Ruby developed a pretty nasty rattle (a.k.a. clatter, clanking, etc.).  It's only audible at lower RPM and goes away under acceleration.  After a little Google searching, I determined that the harmonic balancer was the place to start.  A 30 second inspection that consisted of popping the hood and reaching down to turn the balancer confirmed the suspicion.  In retrospect, I could have just rotated the power steering pump back and forth and made the same determination without getting as dirty.  C'est la vie.

 

My go-to parts house was out of stock, so I went to the second string guys.  The nearest store that had it in stock was dangerously close to the Friday night car-guy hangout, and I got distracted looking for the owner of this '39 (among others):

 

 

I've seen this car around for years, but I've never caught up to the owner.  I later confirmed that some other friends know the owner and he's planning to bring the car out to our October show.  Having thoroughly killed Friday, no more work got done.

 

Saturday was spent working on Oldsmobilie stuff and a barbershop chorus rehearsal.

 

Sunday was a bit abnormal, but after church I had to fix some bikes before getting back to Ruby.  No problem, it's just a harmonic balancer, right?  This should be a 1/2 hour job...  uh huh.

 

The first thing I notice when I peel the splash panel back is a lack of holes to pull the balancer with.  My friend Google says that means this was a slip-fit installation, no puller required.  Yay!  Right?

 

 

The next point of concern is getting that bolt off.  I don't have a cheap Chinese impact wrench and there's not much it can't bust lose, but this one had it beat.  So how do I keep the engine from turning while I put a breaker bar on the bolt?  I'm glad you asked.  First, I took a drill to the balancer.  That dimple was a convenient place to hit it.  

 

 

Then I stuck a bolt through a wrench, put the bolt in the new hole, and rotated the crank to where it wouldn't turn:

 

 

I supported my 1/2" extensions with a jackstand:

 

 

and then input a LOT of torque:

 

 

I was actually afraid that I was going to break my breaker bar or twist off one of the extensions.  I hit it with heat to the point of cooking some of the rubber, and tried to get some penetrating oil in behind the bolt flange.  I haven't actually broken anything (yet), but the balancer isn't off, either.  I did manage to develop a nice process for making offset wrenches, though...

 

 

To be continued...

 

[NC-car-guy]

I had similar fun with an 87 once, keep at it.  Some how we managed, outside in the dirt to get it done...I can't quite remember what we did

Edited September 26, 2016 by wndsofchng06 (see edit history)

[SpecialEducation]

Plan B is to try a bigger gun.  The one I've got now is rated at about 350 ft-lbs.  Harbor Freight says I can try their 1000 ft-lb Earthquake XT for 90 days risk free.  We shall see...

[avgwarhawk]

I would do is put a socket and breaker bar on the crank.  The end of the breaker bar on the frame or suitable surface that will not give.   Then I would tap the key to engage the starter  This would free the crank bolt. The key is...assure you have the socket and bar on the correct side/opposite side of the spin on the crank.  Don't want to tighten more or possibly break the bolt off in the crank. Knock on wood...I never did break a bolt when I used this technique.   

 

Looking at your picture of the many extensions to get to the bolt you will loose a lot of the torque from the tool you are using.  Attempt to get as close to that bolt with the socket and tool you are using to break it loose.  What I described above, getting just the socket and breaker bar on the bolt is fairly easy.   Assure you are placing the breaker bar so the rotation of the crank generated by the starter will spin the bolt counter clockwise. 

Edited September 26, 2016 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NC-car-guy]

46 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

I would do is put a socket and breaker bar on the crank.  The end of the breaker bar on the frame or suitable surface that will not give.   Then I would tap the key to engage the starter  This would free the crank bolt. The key is...assure you have the socket and bar on the correct side/opposite side of the spin on the crank.  Don't want to tighten more or possibly break the bolt off in the crank. Knock on wood...I never did break a bolt when I used this technique.   

 

Looking at your picture of the many extensions to get to the bolt you will loose a lot of the torque from the tool you are using.  Attempt to get as close to that bolt with the socket and tool you are using to break it loose.  What I described above, getting just the socket and breaker bar on the bolt is fairly easy.   Assure you are placing the breaker bar so the rotation of the crank generated by the starter will spin the bolt counter clockwise. 

Yes I think this may be how I did it.

[Ttotired]

Always used the starter to undo the harmonic ballancer, basically, what "avgwarhawk"   said

 

 

[JohnD1956]

I put a crowbar into a tooth of the flywheel, and jammed that into the ground.  Then I used those extensions but supported the joint between the last extension and the breaker bar. Then I put a 4 ft pipe on the end of the breaker bar and used a 5 lb sledge hammer to rap the back of the breaker bar joint while a helper pulled on the 4 ft bar.

[NTX5467]

When your car and others with the Buick 3800 V-6 were in production and "used cars", this was a somewhat common "failure".  When you get things apart, you'll find that the "clanking" is caused by a counterweight with a bearing on it, which is normally laminated into the rubber of the "pulley" (GM's term for it).  I don't recall anybody complaining of how hard it might be to do that replacement, but I was selling them to repair shops, be that as it may.  BUT getting it off is just the FIRST part of "the battle", I suspect.

 

On the back side of the pulley is the trigger for the crankshaft position sensor.  The trigger is a three-pane metal piece.  The sensor has three corresponding slots in it.  It's possible that no adjustment of the sensor will be necessary, but it might be advisable to check to see where things are (sensor and trigger) before the pulley is removed so that no change in the sensor position occurs.  I've not done that repair myself, but just going on how it all seems to fit together.  Just an advisory that some additional consideration of hidden items might be needed in disassembly and re-assembly of the pulley on the crankshaft.

 

Keep us posted on your progress.

 

The Blackhawk has been in private hands for some time now.  It surfaces every now and then, though.

 

NTX5467

[SpecialEducation]

2 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

 

On the back side of the pulley is the trigger for the crankshaft position sensor.  The trigger is a three-pane metal piece.  The sensor has three corresponding slots in it.  It's possible that no adjustment of the sensor will be necessary, but it might be advisable to check to see where things are (sensor and trigger) before the pulley is removed so that no change in the sensor position occurs.  I've not done that repair myself, but just going on how it all seems to fit together.  Just an advisory that some additional consideration of hidden items might be needed in disassembly and re-assembly of the pulley on the crankshaft.

 

There was actually a note with the new pulley regarding the sensor/reluctor clearance. I'm surprised how many how-to videos are out there that show how to replace the balancer and even the sensor and never mentioned how to check clearances. 

 

Some said they jammed the flywheel in various ways, but I'm reluctant to stop that much torque with a part that I care about, so the original balancer will get any mods and/or abuse as required. 

 

The 1000 ft-lb Impact wrench was out of stock, might try the 700 tomorrow...

 

 

[JohnD1956]

You have appoint Matt but consider that the timing chain cover is just aluminum.  Best be certain your balancer mods do not include any jamming against that, or you'll likely have a good opportunity to also change the timing chain.

 

 

[SpecialEducation]

I'm not going that deep. I'm only into the top sheet metal of the pulley, not even the iron of the balancer. 

[NTX5467]

1K of torque might also separate the front nose of the crank?  Hopefully, the "just right" level will get things apart!

 

NTX5467

[SpecialEducation]

That's one reason I'm not a fan of using the starter to bust it free. I'll try to sneak up on it rather than give it the beans all at once.

[SpecialEducation]

Ok, I stand corrected. The old gun was 425 ft-lbs. I wanted the 1000 ft-lb job, but couldn't get one so we settled for the 700 ft-lb number. 

 

 

So much for sneaking up on it. 3 forward settings, one reverse. 

 

 

Backed the bolt out like it was nuthin'...

 

[SpecialEducation]

The old balancer slipped right off (just like my Opel motors!), and the new one slipped on just the same. I did NOT use the bolt that came with the new pulley. It was longer and bottomed in the crank before the flange contacted the face. 

 

[SpecialEducation]

A quick clearance check (hard to show in a photo), and we're good to go!

[Barney Eaton]

PS.... On Ruby (LeSabre) you can use the LONG oil filters and gain at least 20% more filter area.

1988-90 Reatta use a filter adaptor that would not allow the long filter to be use because it would put the filter too low ....

Early 1991 Reatta used a different adaptor that layed the filter on top of the engine cradle and either length of filter could be used.

Late 1991 Reatta and many other GM cars with 3800 V6 used still a different filter adaptor that is very similar to the one shown in your pictures and the long filter can be used.

SHORT filter numbers = PF-47, FREM 3354 OR3387A, PUROLATOR L1011, WIX 51040

LONG filter numbers = PF-52, FRAM 3980, PUROLATOR L204011,  WIX 51036

 

The photo below shows a filter adaptor from a 3800 Impala police car that has engine oil cooler line fitting built into the adaptor

[SpecialEducation]

Good point, Barney.  I've got 4 vehicles from '83 thru '96 that use the PF47s, so I generally have those around.  I've joked about just buying them by the case.  I knew there was a long version, but I never remember what the number is. One vehicle may not have the clearance for a 52, but if both filters are the same price, there's not much reason to go with the smaller filter...

[Barney Eaton]

I buy filters by the 12 bulk pack on Ebay..........when I purchased a new 2011 Enclave the AC filter was a new part number  PF63 and I could not find a parts store or WalMart that carried it.

My sister-in-law works at NAPA and told me it was a dealer only item.   So I purchased 2 from my Buick dealer at about 3 time the price of similar filters. 

Then in the summer I purchased a new GMC P/U that used the same filter.  So now my usage doubled

Needed to do something about the price and availabity and found them on Ebay........since that time WalMart now carries them but they are twice the price of Reatta filters.

[NTX5467]

Quote

 

 

Thanks for those updates and pictures!

 

I have observed that with each new engine GM produces, the oil filters seem to diminish in size.  This seems a little bit troubling, on the surface, but with engines now being sealed so well against the "outside environment", they filter "oil" rather than other items which could come in via open vents to the outside environments.  As engine assembly is now so computerized and NC-run (videos of the LS-family engines on YouTube), then initial-build "things" are minimized greatly.  Hence the better viability of smaller filter areas than in the past.  It now seems that additional oil capacity is the orientation rather than smaller capacities and "good-sized" oil filters in current times.

 

The PF63 was originally OEM-only (for non-AC filter brands).  Not sure why, either!  As many dealers now have bulk oil tanks for their current OEM motor oil, if the price of oil filters on the open market increase, along with "more quarts" needed, finding a dealership with a good price on oil changes might be more cost/time effective for some owners.  The bulk oil is a good bit less expensive than "quart oil", at the dealership level, which can allow them to offer a "value price" and not lose money on the oil change/inspection operation.

 

On the subject of oil filter filtering media . . . there are several considerations here.  In the industry tests of how much of the calibrated "grit" the particular filter media might "catch", there are a multitude of grit sizes and volumes of each grit.  How much or which size "removed by the media" determines the effectiveness of the media itself.  At one time, several filter brands (including AC) had a few different filter lines with enhanced-removal media.  To me, this was a way to make more money on oil filters that had a little better filtering capabilities.  No doubt, such filters also had to balance their "clog-ability" and oil flow?  Many auto supplies and discount houses usually had these filters, as AC also made them available to dealerships, too.  They WERE more expensive, so many dealerships did not use them and potential customers probably balked at that price increase for "an unseen immediate benefit".  In the end, though, the filter media we now have is most probably a better filter than when our vintage engines were designed, when open vents to the atmosphere were on each engine, usually unfiltered.  FWIW.

 

NTX5467

 

 

[NTX5467]

At the dealership level, many dealers who desire can purchase AC filters in "Fleetpack" packaging.  They come in a box with thin cardboard dividers, rather than in individual boxes.  The price is decreased also.  For a dealer that does lots of QuickLube oil changes, this decreases the amount of waste cardboard humongously!  With the price advantage, it's a "no-brainer", too, all things considered.  For an individual user, adding a plastic bag for storage cover might be advisable, or possibly individual plastic zip-lock 1qt storage bags?  But as long as they are "in the case", resting on their gaskets, should be no problems in their original packaging, typically . . . as long as everything is a "clean and dry" environment.

 

The AC part number is usually followed by an "F" and has a different GM part number (8 digit), too.  As "PF63F", for example.

 

Every so often, batches of counterfeit filters seem to surface.  Always check to ensure any filters purchased online have the same filter base as the known-OEM-supplied filters do as there are usually significant differences in that area, typically.  Advances in computerized printing and such make it easier than ever to duplicate those things, but the metal stamping operations to exactly duplicate the base plate and related back-flow valving are usually where differences can happen.  FWIW.

 

Just be an informed shopper!

NTX5467

 

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Stone Warlock]

i know its been awhile but may i ask where did you find a new balancer at?..all the ones i see are press on..and ive been told that they are not interchangeable..i have an 89 lesabre (scarlet) and im fixing to replace the CPS and in case i screw up my balancer i need another one on hand..also..what size socket did you use on the center bolt and was there a woodruf key  if so do you know the size?

[SpecialEducation]

Pretty sure the balancer came from AutoZone.  Looks like I used a 1 1/8" socket. Yeah, it's keyed, but I didn't mess with it.  Both my '89 LeSabre and 1990 Reatta were slip-fit balancers.

[Stone Warlock]

did you lesabre have a sensor shield?.. i dont see one on my car so if they came with one someone removed it