1955 Buick general questions

[Kosage Chavis]

Good news...was able to turn the armature.  Still somewhat hard to turn, but turning none the less.  I will continue to turn periodically and spray with WD- 40 until it becomes easy enough to remove armature from cavity.

[Kosage Chavis]

Finally was able to pull the armature out of its cavity.  Cleaning will start the next time I can break away.

[Kosage Chavis]

Question...now that the armature is out, I can see that it is soaked with WD-40.  Is it safe to soak it with brake cleaner to get rid of the lubricant and dry out? Thank you.

[NC-car-guy]

4 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said:

Question...now that the armature is out, I can see that it is soaked with WD-40.  Is it safe to soak it with brake cleaner to get rid of the lubricant and dry out? Thank you.

I'd use electrical contact cleaner....

[Beemon]

I second electrical cleaner. If there's some light rust, hit it with a scrubbing sponge, too. 

[Guest]

I think remember posting a long time ago in a universe far, far away! Look like same exact motor armatures as seat drive motors, Evap-o-rust, NONDESTRUCTIVE TO METALS REMOVED ALL CORROSION! Hope that wasn't too loud. Only way I got them apart, fuglier than I wanted to work with, only to find both replacement, good, complete drives on Evilbay for less time but little more money(closer to the end than the beginning changes value assesment differential)!  Evilbay just finished an auction for an NOS Corvette electric wiper motor armature for 18.75, no bids, looked identical to window and seat motor armatures. Might check with National Chevy parts. Sneaky GM, each division uses different part numbers for exact same parts.. Bet you or I even, can buy a new replacement armature. Bean counters really like "modularity", but really now an inexpensive Chevy part that fits Cadillac more$$$$, with the same part number! How uncouth! Point is lots of mechanical stuff is the same if you can figure out how to get around  that different part number each division issue! Good luck with the refurb on those motors, always a cost versus benefit analysys wether to spend gobs of time refurbing or researching exact replacement new stuff and end up with new instead of used, long run? Hmmm.

No, I don't own stock in Evaporust, wish I did though. It's expensive, but worth it in some cases. Hope that helps!

Edited January 25, 2017 by Guest
Dim bulb! (see edit history)

[Kosage Chavis]

So finally, I was able to clean the last motor and get it put back together.  A while back I said that the inside showed signs that it had overheated.  One of the brushed and the associated wire was badly burnt...so badly that its compression spring lost all integrity and was in a permanent compressed state.  All I want to do was to make sure the motor worked, so I removed the spring and carefully stretched it back out.  I lightly sanded and cleaned the contact surfaces of the brush.  After dousing the insides with electrical contact cleaner and blowing it out with compressed air until dry, I put back together.  I hooked the battery back up to the motor, I was able to get to work briefly!!!  There is life after all.  However, it will need a new brush and compression spring to work properly...which is fine with me.  At least I can pack the motors up now knowing I have a full set that I can work with.  Thank you for all your help.

[Beemon]

Finding new brushes and springs might be a bit of a challenge. I would definitely like to know where one might be able to get some.

[NC-car-guy]

The spring is probably easy. The brush, maybe, maybe not. Given Kosage's location, I'm betting he can find an electric motor shop that could help.

 

[old-tank]

I'll look for some tomorrow.

[NTX5467]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:09 PM, 2carb40 said:

 Evilbay just finished an auction for an NOS Corvette electric wiper motor armature for 18.75, no bids, looked identical to window and seat motor armatures. Might check with National Chevy parts. Sneaky GM, each division uses different part numbers for exact same parts.. Bet you or I even, can buy a new replacement armature. Bean counters really like "modularity", but really now an inexpensive Chevy part that fits Cadillac more$$$$, with the same part number! How uncouth! Point is lots of mechanical stuff is the same if you can figure out how to get around  that different part number each division issue! Good luck with the refurb on those motors, always a cost versus benefit analysys wether to spend gobs of time refurbing or researching exact replacement new stuff and end up with new instead of used, long run? Hmmm.

 

 

I will respectfully disagree about "Evil GM . . . same part, different part number".  Each GM division used to have their own segment of the part number spectrum, BUT in the case of "same part", the original division which used that part, that part number was used by all divisions.  It was easy to see, if you knew the sequence back then, that a part was originally a Chevy part, Buick part, Cadillac part, Olds part, Pontiac part, or GMC Truck and Coach part.   Many Cadillac dealers sold parts under a particular price at "double cost" (rather than GM MSRP) as a profit booster for a parts department that didn't have the volume sales which a Chevy parts department would, even if it was a Chevy part that fit a Cadillac.

 

Now, should one division start with a particular part from another division, BUT add something to the original part (whatever it might be), then THAT division's part number was operative for the modified part.  Might even be a different finish or a different bolt hole, but if there was something different about them, different part numbers were issued.  As vehicles aged, it was also common for different applications to be combined, with a part number change.  Fan clutches are one example of that.  The body mounts for my '68 LeSabre have Chevy numbers cast into them, which match what's listed in the parts books.  Ask a repro vendor for body mounts for a '68 LeSabre and they'll say "No".  Ask them for body mounts for a '68 Impala, and they'll say "Yes".  Same GM part number.

 

It's to GM's advantage to have fewer part numbers, if possible, BUT if the "engineering" departments needed something different, THEY determined that.  In many cases, electric motors were sold "assembled" with no parts listings.  The outsides might be different, but the guts could be the same.  Kind of like hvac fan switches.  When you look at the variations in the back of the ACDelco electrical catalog, it's obvious that the same basic switch is used, but with different mounting brackets, different lever mechanisms, etc.  It's the attachments to the switch which define its ultimate application.  In the vehicle production realm of things, everything is "application specific", but in the auto supply realm, that becomes "will fit" (which I believe is also noted in the Hollander Interchange Manual, with what might be needed to make it fit . . . an extra bolt hole or similar).

 

Once, there was a part that had a similar part for a different stated application.  One was in the GM warehouse and the other one was not.  I called SPAC to see if there might be a possibility that the two would interchange. I was informed "If Engineering doesn't say it will fit, it doesn't."  Meaning, if Engineering said it would fit, the part numbers would be the same, not different.

 

In the AC-Delco side of things, their catalogs had many things which did not appear in the GM parts books.  GM sold alternators.  ACDelco sold parts for alternators when GM didn't.  At the OEM level, it was about "change" rather than "repair", as GM's replacement part parts warranty would take care of things whereas if it was repaired, it was the shop's particular warranty that applied.  The reman-only alternator situation started in about 1998.  We knew that repair parts (usually the rear bearing, in this case) for the alternators existed, as the GM items were "reman", but only in AC-Delco.

 

I know that many might be thinking "parts changers" and such, but that's how some things evolved.  It's better for the dealer technician to use an OEM-supplied remanufactured part (not "rebuilt" ... there is a difference) with an OEM-backed parts/labor warranty.  This makes it a customer satisfaction/customer confidence issue.

 

Inside the starters, there are many common parts.  I suspect that brushes and their tension springs are some of them.  Finding a repair shop that has them might be "the trick".

 

NTX5467

 

[Kosage Chavis]

Yes, I know of 2 places in my area that rebuild motors.  I went to Lowes, hoping that I could find a replacement compression spring.  No luck.  The OD of the spring is 6mm and has an approximate length of about 1.3125" (uncompressed).  I figured I'd fix the more cheaper and obvious problem and see if it makes any difference.  If not, I will move to the brush.  I can tell you that the wire that connects to the brush is frayed and worn.  Also, the solder is broken at this same wire and needs to be resoldered.  I might play with it more tomorrow and see what else I can do with it.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Kosage Chavis
Spelling (see edit history)

[Guest]

Thanks for the heads up on part numbers. When looking up parts in the Chilton's flat rate manual, I've found they will have interchange called out by letter designation referring to each different devision. B for Buick etc. When you go to the Cadd section you find parts with the applications identified by these letters per devision, but with different part numbers. Therein lies my confusion, maybe? I have Hollanders from here to Sunday, but they fall short listing everything, (I think they wanted mainly fast moving repair parts listed to expedite mechanical repairs with those used parts, not for restoration of these old cars like we are trying to do now, so I add the use of those Chilton's and the factory Buick parts book numbers to try and be definitive. I don't deal with collectible Buicks newer than1972, (just personal choice not casting any rocks folks)! Maybe the numbers newer than that are different? Curious because accurate number info about interchange can really increase odds of successfully obtaining some of these hard to find parts. Thanx for your input! Oh yeah, and then the section in the parts manuals that list the new and different part numbers that supersede the old part numbers. Arrgh!

Edited January 30, 2017 by Guest
Dim bulb! (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Is this what you need?

[NTX5467]

To me, Hollander is more "will fit" than specific.  The Chilton books were good and pretty accurate regarding specs and part numbers.  The specs were generally the same as the MOTOR Manual and the similar Chilton Crash Parts Estimating Guides.  That's how I understand it.  ALL can be reasonably good resources.

 

In the case of the crash parts books and similar, the parts listed could be "representative" as one of the main issues in collision estimating is $$$$ rather than part number accuracy, especially back then.  But shops still ordered by description, back then, as the insurance company databases were only "a dream" compared to now.  The main differences were in items with colors and textures, interior and exterior.  Still, the knowledge and expertise of the dealership parts people was important and cherished.

 

On the GM side of things, a new parts book (and price book) came out every quarter, but were sometimes less frequent (except the price books!).  Getting the parts book whose publication date is closest to the model of your car can be important.  The "first printing" with the next model year (in the fall) usually had the "yellow pages" of new/different parts (usually sheet metal and trim, mostly) were good to see for predicting what needed to be stocked for the newer models).  By the January printing, those parts were generally more stable and in the "white pages".  Remember that, as with sales brochures and service manuals, that in order for them to be approved, printed, and distributed meant that many saw their origins in the June-July timeframes.  One reason, possibly, that Chevrolet published a separate "light" service manual about changes in the upcoming models (basically things which the Make Ready people might need and the service department might need, early-on).  I didn't see any of those after about 1978, but it could be that none were ordered?  Now, everything's on the GM "net access", which reduces the printed updates which were mailed and the service dept was supposed to paste over the page which was being updated in the particular service manual.  Bad thing, just as with the parts database, "changes" can't be tracked as readily, if needed, to defend/explain something from a few months back.  Similar with Time/Labor Guides, too, for repair operations.

 

Typically, the parts books fartherest away from the model year could see some parts "not there any more", but could still be available from GM (until supplies were depleted or scrapped).  This could lead to "Not available any more" replies from parts consultants, when the parts were still in the warehouse and the particular parts dept had already disposed of the prior books.  I knew the value of the prior-printing of the parts books. 

 

We had enough volume in "the older stuff" to regularly go back to the old books, so there were in a protected archive location . . . and still are.  With the expansion of the repro parts industry, less need for them now, though.  Way prior to that, what the vendors offered was the same that GM still offered.  Some of the muscle car parts were stocked in the Atlanta warehouse (think Year One), for example.  But with licensing coming online in the earlier 1980s, the repro industry became "legit".

 

At a Mopar Nationals seminar on repro parts (later 1980s) when Chrysler was taking "baby steps" compared to some others, they went back to the original blueprints and vendors to contract for particular parts.  If, for example, the particular part began in 1972, but was used for several more model years, with changes in appearance or graphics, the part they would get was the later version, rather than the earlier version, with the last part number on it.  Therefore, the "correct" repro part might not look exactly like the 1972 production part, but would be what you'd get if you ordered the original (with part number changes) item from the dealership several years later, before it was discontinued.  Many people would not notice or care, but some do.  Production codes and appearances do matter more to some than others, depending upon the level of restoration they are engaged in. 

 

Some vendors found ways around the licensing process, especially in soft trim, by not doing an exact reproduction, but a product that looked so accurate that until you looked closer, you didn't notice what was different.  One noted Chevy interior vendor used a headliner vinyl with "stars" rather than "BowTies" imprinted into it.  In later times, the licensing logo became more of a selling point than in earlier times.  Some items were different in other ways, with the "same form, fit, function" as the OEM items.

 

NTX5467

[Kosage Chavis]

42 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Is this what you need?

Yes Sir, that exactly what I have.  As a matter of fact, this one is in the same shape as mine...one brush looks good while the other doesn't.  Only difference is that both of these springs look to be in good shape.

[old-tank]

Both brushes are good.  This is from a NOS unit that had water damage.  I used other parts to rebuild one of mine.  PM me if you want it.

[Kosage Chavis]

At last...

 

[Beemon]

It's always a great feeling having rebuilt something yourself!

 

I just noticed, looking back at your earlier images, that the armature looks exactly identical to the one used in the tri-five electric wiper motors. I grabbed one last week off Ebay for $75, the seller sold it with the lead wire cut off at the body so it needed to be taken apart and a new wire needed to be soldered in place, but the armature and internals look identical. When I did my power antenna, the armature had a fine thread on it, whereas these would be a more coarse thread. I wonder if they just used the same two armatures - fine and course - and just designed applications around them.

 

[Kosage Chavis]

So, I think I have asked this question before, but didn't get an answer.  Can anyone tell me and/or show me the difference for regulators between electrical and manual applications?  Of course the obvious difference is a mounting surface for the electrical motor.  Also, this question applies to 2 door hardtop century/models.  Thank you.

[old-tank]

So, you don't have all the parts for the power windows?  "Dude you're screwed"

I swapped power parts from one crusty door to what was originally a non power door and it was a near nightmare:  templates to be made, new holes drilled, holes cut into inner panel for the switch, transfer the 'cage' for the switch, hole cut at front for wires, hole cut in 'A' pillar for wires.  This upgrade should not be attempted without a complete donor parts car!  Probably easier to convert using supplies from a hotrod vendor.

[buick5563]

Like this one. I like Speedway.

 

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Electric-Power-Window-Kit,112892.html?sku=91123332&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=Cj0KEQiA88TFBRDYrOPKuvfY2pIBEiQA97Z8MW2F_vWuB3Mzd7LipDi1OhPQWTCpwJX97qt9RKW3IokaAmz-8P8HAQ

[Kosage Chavis]

8 hours ago, old-tank said:

So, you don't have all the parts for the power windows?  "Dude you're screwed"

I swapped power parts from one crusty door to what was originally a non power door and it was a near nightmare:  templates to be made, new holes drilled, holes cut into inner panel for the switch, transfer the 'cage' for the switch, hole cut at front for wires, hole cut in 'A' pillar for wires.  This upgrade should not be attempted without a complete donor parts car!  Probably easier to convert using supplies from a hotrod vendor.

The hard work doesn't bother me at all.  I assume the guides are the same.  Just need the regulators.  However, I was wondering if the manual regulators could be modified to fit the motors.  More than one way to skin a cat...right?

[old-tank]

regulators do not interchange.

[Kosage Chavis]

New question...would power window parts from a 55 Oldsmobile 98 series (2 door) fit on a 55 Buick Century (2 door)?  Thank you.

[old-tank]

I am almost positive that the 1955 88 series would be the same as 1955 Century.  Need to research body manuals and parts books for 1955 Olds.

[Kosage Chavis]

1 hour ago, old-tank said:

I am almost positive that the 1955 88 series would be the same as 1955 Century.  Need to research body manuals and parts books for 1955 Olds.

So 98 series would be a "no-go"?

[old-tank]

16 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said:

So 98 series would be a "no-go"?

I didn't say that.  Do the research.  May need to talk to Mike Fuscik at Fuscik Olds (has Buick parts too).  The 98 is a long wheelbase, but is still the narrow body like the Century and 88...not wide like the 55 Roadmaster and Caddy.

[Kosage Chavis]

So I was looking over part numbers in my parts book to see what would work in terms of Buicks alone.

 

For the front power window regulators, the part numbers are 4157318 (right) and 4157319 (left).  Both of these parts work on Special convertibles, Special rivieras and Century rivieras, years 54 thru 56.  What about Century convertibles?  Well, these same part numbers only fit years 55 and 56.  I am not sure why they left out the 54's.

 

For the rear power quarter window regulators, the part numbers are 4158334 (right) and 4158335 (left). These part numbers only fit the Special rivieras and Century rivieras for years 55 and 56.   Nothing is listed for 54's at all for anything, leading me to believe that 54's did not have rear power windows available for the smaller series Buick. That would explain the reason why I have heard of some Buicks with only power windows for the front alone.  

[Guest]

There is a salvage yard owner in Custer WI selling power window and seat parts very reasonably priced on ebay of all places. Bowtiebits search on ebay. If you cant afford what he is listing.....Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/401192396876 Sorry, old guy struggles with tech. This is the link to Custer not bowtiebits

Edited March 12, 2017 by Guest
Dimbulb (see edit history)

[Kosage Chavis]

Hey guys.  I took a chance on an ebay part.  The parts were described as power rear quarter window parts from a 1955 Oldsmobile 2 door hardtop.  Came with the regulator withmotor still mounted to it and 2 sets of guides.  Here's a couple of pictures.Question is...is the regulator the correct one for my car?  There is a number stamped on the arm, but I searched for this number on my interchange manual and found nothing.  Can soneone help me please?  Thank you.

[old-tank]

Numbers stamped or cast into parts are usually meaningless.  I doubt you will get an answer to this obscure situation.  Here's a novel idea:  assemble the parts and get it working...better to find out now that you have all the parts needed and how to install before it is painted.

[Kosage Chavis]

Does anyone have or know anything about the power window relays (54-56)? I see a pictured diagram of this relay on page 110-A in the Master Body Parts Book along with the rest of the power window assembly.  The part number for this relay is 1116895.  

 

Questions...is there one relay per window?  Is the relay mounted inside the doors?  How interchangeable are the original relays with new relays?  Thanks for any help.

[old-tank]

One relay mounted inside left kick panel.

[Kosage Chavis]

11 minutes ago, old-tank said:

One relay mounted inside left kick panel.

 

Are these old relays interchangeable with new ones?

Edited April 28, 2017 by Kosage Chavis (see edit history)

[old-tank]

Google 1116895 GM.

And, yes any rated relay will work.

Edited April 28, 2017 by old-tank (see edit history)

[Guest]

Thanks Man

        You are gettin' a 2fer on this one. I'm glad your responding cuz even though I'm doing other tasks right now, like trying to get my Cent at least yard driving, I appreciate your descriptions about these issues I will also be needing to check and insure operation of.

[old-tank]

Study hard boys...there will be a test later:

[Kosage Chavis]

1 hour ago, old-tank said:

Study hard boys...there will be a test later:

This is perfect!  Thank you Mr Willie.

[MrEarl]

So one circuit breaker and one relay handle both the power seat AND the windows, correct, and they are both located in the drivers side kick panel, correct.