Brake Drum Balancing??

[Guest Dave May]

I've got a 1960 Buick Invicta and a couple of years ago, I switched from polyester ply tires to modern radials.  While the handling sure improved, the ride at speeds between 50 and 60 mph deteriorated.  At those speeds it feels like there is a wheel balance issue on one of the front wheels.  I've had the wheels/tires balanced twice and the last time "road force balanced" but the problem still is there.  I'm starting to wonder if maybe the front brake drum(s) may be either out of balance or out of round???  Anybody had any similar experience???  There are folks who will re-line the aluminum drums,...will they also re-balance the drums too??   

[Ttotired]

Radials require a different wheel alignment that the bias ply specs

A wheel alignment should fix it

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Dave, have you tried switching a back tire for the front? Might eliminate wheel/tire from equation.

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

Radials need the toe-in set to the "minimum spec", even "0" on modern vehicles with "tight" steering linkage.  Do you recall to what alignment specs the car was set to before the tire change?  Just curious.

 

There is a "factory balance" on brake drums and rotors, but if there was no issue before the tire swap, there shouldn't be any afterward.  What you might try is to find a place that still has the old Stewart-Warner Alemite "spin" (on the car) balancer (with strobe light).  That way, anything that rotates with the tire is balanced as a unit (necessary to mark which lug stud aligns with the valve stem so if taken off, the tire/wheel can be put back in the same position on the wheel hub/axle flange).

 

An imbalance at that speed range, suddenly is a little unusual.  With all of the tire balancing that's been done, everything should be smoooooth as a new '60 Buick.  If there was any roundness issues with the tires, that should have been noticed on the wheel balancer.  Same with wheel lateral run-out.  Wondering when the last time was that the u-joints/carrier bearing were checked??  Was all of the balancing done at the same shop?

 

An old "shadetree" method of wheel balancing, as I found in a 1960s "Popular Science" or similar magazine . . . is to back off of the wheel bearing adjustment nut and spin the wheel slowly.  Let it spin down and see if it stops smoothly, stays stopped, or tries to rotate in the opposite direction on its own.  The "heavy spot" will be on the bottom, if there is one.

 

How many miles are on the tires since they were installed?  Prior to purchase, were they in a tire rack or stored another way at the dealer?  Just curious as a Goodyear rep mentioned that as a possible factor in "ride disturbance" issues.

 

Please keep us posted,

NTX5467

[old-tank]

You CAN have the drum balanced (static).  One of my 55's had balance problems since day one of my ownership 40 years ago.  I could get a balance if balanced on the car, but that became unavailable recently.  Then when switching tires between cars I noticed that there no weights attached to that drum like on the other 3 drums.  Balance check showed that I needed 1.75 ounces.  The location was marked and that area had remnants of spot welds from a weight that got lost.  After knocking a weight from a worn drum and weighing I attached with machine screws:  no balance problem!

Willie

 

[Guest Dave May]

The car went through a total restoration which included new bearings and front suspension.  I did get the front shocks from Kanter and I was also starting to think it may be a defective shock issue??  After the restoration, the alignment was done with the bias ply tires.  While driving with the bias ply tires, I never noticed this issue, but then I may not have driven over 50 mph or I was thinking the taller bias ply tires may have absorbed more vibration, masking the issue??  I did notice that the drums did have weights on them, but never did a close inspection to see if any were missing.  

 

After the radials were installed, they were initially spin balanced.  I then had them spin balanced again by another shop and swapped the fronts and backs.  The problem was still there so I had them "road force" balanced by a third shop.  

 

I purchased the tires from Diamondback.  They take modern radials and adhere the wide white sidewalls to them.  I have probably less than 1K miles on them.  I can't say how they were stored.  

 

Since the issue feels like a wheel balance issue, I never thought about a re-alignment, but now that I think about it, the car does pull to the left.  I will get it re-aligned and keep you posted.  Thanks all for the input!  

[old-tank]

if alignment does not correct the pulling, then swap the front tires to the back one at a time or substitute a known good tire/wheel.  If that stops the pulling then that tire is likely the one causing the balance problem too.

[61polara]

Your issue is the tires.  Go back to the bias ply tires your car was built for.

[old-tank]

23 minutes ago, 61polara said:

Your issue is the tires.  Go back to the bias ply tires your car was built for.

Wrong.

[NTX5467]

Thanks for that additional information, Dave!  I never did any balance checks on brake drums, BUT they obviously had to be balanced somewhere in the production process.

 

Personally, unless the desire is for an exactly correct looking car, then repro bias plies are needed for authenticity.  If the car is going to be "used", then I'd choose radials of the correct size.  Although the current repro bias ply tires might look correct, how do I know they are using the same size tire cords, the same rubber compounds, and such as the original tires used (circa 1966 or so)?  Sure, they meet current DOT performance criteria, but what about "the guts"?

 

To me, IF the car's going to be "used", then it needs tires that can be "available" when on trips and such.  And, that usually means "radial tires in modern sizing".

 

BUT . . . your car, your money.  Enjoy!

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

Just because it's easy, find a place that can bubble balance your tires. That is the only way I do mine. And I use biased tires on all the old cars. I just got back from driving 25 miles round trip for coffee and didn't exceed 65 MPH the whole way. I did stay on the macadam roads today.

 

When the spin balancers first came out I tried them but it ended up like the exercise machine in the corner of the bedroom with clothes hanging on it.

 

I always triangulate the weight placement and use the smallest weights I can. Sometimes I will just mount the tires and drive them for a week to put some stresses on them, then check and balance them.

 

There are some shops that still have the on car wheel spinner. I have thought about picking one of those up so I can get the wheel assembly and suspension all gyrating together for diagnostics, but so far it hasn't been a compelling issue.

 

I use my current '60 about the same way I used the one I bought in 1966. I just have more trouble finding guys with Edsel Citations to blow the doors off. Of course I don't hang out at Oak Orchard Lanes on band night anymore either.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

I concur on the capabilities of the old bubble balancers!  If somebody knows the strategies of spreading the weights apart and then splits them f/r of the wheel, then things can work pretty dang good.  The one gas station that had the spin balancer usually did the highway patrol cars, with good results.  Back then, it was the "high end" method of balancing.

 

Even back then, some tended to buy "better tires" than they really needed.  Nothing wrong with that, but there had also been times when the better tires were actually BETTER and lasted longer.  AND they didn't have issues after 6 years of age (as many used tires were put on farm implements rather than throw them away . . . as long as they held air was all that mattered).

 

In those earlier times, when a tire would not balance "right", and if it was of a less-expensive brand, then some tended to claim "It has a hard spot in the tire".  This would lead to what came to be called "road force variation", or as one "G" brand sales rep told me once, "ride variation".  Therefore, nothing to cause a failure, just a little annoying vibration at highway speeds.  If that vibration also came to be accompanied by a "squeak" and "vibration on initial acceleration", then you looked at u-joints.

 

In the 1990s, one day I was walking across the service drive as a Service Advisor was asked what kind of tires should be put on a customer's car, by the customer.  He automatically replied "M______ tires . . . "  This was an older customer that didn't drive many miles.  At that time, as those "M" tires aged, the sidewalls started to "check", which didn't look good.  To me, no need to put 60K+ tires on a car that might take 10 years to accumulate that mileage, when less expensive tires of "common brands" might work just as well (for the intended purpose).  BUT, in cases where the vehicle would be driven (say) 100 miles/day in a work commute in all kinds of weather or the owner took longer trips, then the "M" brand tires would be a better investment.  To me, "value" can be just as important as "status" of using particular brands of products.

 

Then, too, "rubber" might be viewed as a generic commodity, look similar, and all of that.  But as I found out a few winters ago, on a work vehicle with "M" brand of tires rather than OEM which came on it, there IS a definite difference in rubber compounds (as the autocross and drag racers have known for quite many decades).  More to "M+S" tires than just the tread design!  Everything has a "cost".

 

NTX5467

[Guest Dave May]

To follow up and "close the loop" on this topic, the findings are: the wheel balancing and alignment check out fine.  However, one of the tires appear to be defective or damaged with a very noticeable "hump" when being spun and one wheel is bent.  I question how the wheel could have been balanced without the tire tech. noticing these issues??  I'll have to track down another wheel (anyone know of a source in the Chicago area??), and deal with Diamond Back on replacing the tire.    Thanks for all the input.  

[Bob Engle]

I've been looking for a good set of 6x15 correct wheels for my Invicta without any  success.  There are plenty of 51/2 x15 Lesabre wheels available.

Look close before you buy if you want good correct wheels.

 

Bob Engle

[buick5563]

Bill Stoneberg just had some wheels straightened here in Austin. They also powdercoated them at the same time. You may want to check with a "wheel" dealer.