Innovations by Dodge Before Chrysler

[stooy]

Hey Guys, 

 

I am doing a bit of research into what pioneering innovations that Dodge did before Chrysler took them over. 

 

So far I have 

- In 1914 Dodge's had 12V electrical system  

- They also had an Electric Starter Motor 

- Bodies were all steel 

- Dodges also had a hand controlled fuel pump which allowed Dodge cars to climb steep hills without the need for reversing 

 

What else is there? 

Thanks in advance 

 

Stewart 

[cahartley]

You really should read this book >>> http://www.amazon.com/The-Dodge-Brothers-Legacy-Series/dp/0814332463?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00

And when you finish that this one too >>> http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Roller-Coaster-Chrysler-Corporation/dp/0814330916?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

The Dodge book is so interesting I read it twice........might even give another shot....... 

[stooy]

Thanks Mate, 

 

I have read the second one, but I will look into the first one now. 

 

The other one I read which was really good was his one Car Breer - 

The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy

 

[nearchoclatetown]

Sorry, but none of those were innovative. 12 volts was not uncommon, even in 1914. Early Whites even had 18 volt cars. The hand fuel pump was to pressurize the tank to push fuel to the engine driven fuel pump, also not new. The engine driven fuel pump pressurized the tank to push fuel to the carb. Only thing the hand pump did was save time on a restart after sitting for an extended length of time. . Cadillac had an electric starter in 1908 and while all steel bodies were unusual they were not new. What the Brothers did was make all their parts better right from the beginning. .Better metals and engineering. And they kept improving them all the time which makes restoring one difficult to figure out how they were built as new.

[Chrycoman]

The Dodge Brothers all steel body was the work of the Budd company.  Budd designed bodies using sheet steel and welding to join everything together.  That was actually the big advancement as Budd brought over and adopted sheet steel welding techniques used in Europe after WW I.   Welding proved to be far superior to nuts, bolts, screws and rivets.

 

Bodies at that time used wood frames with metal reinforcement at joints and used sheet steel to cover the sides which were bolted or screwed to the wood frame.  No welding required.   The all steel bodies were superior as they did not have a wood frame that rotted or had the reinforcements shake loose.  Not to mention the screws and nuts and bolts that held the sheet steel in place on the wood frame.

 

The 1928 Dodge Victory Six used an all steel body developed by Budd that used mostly sheet steel panels instead of a steel frame covered with sheet steel.  The Victory Six body had virtually everything steel except for the roof.  Unfortunately, sound deadening was not as advanced as today and riding in one was apparently the equivalent of being rolled along inside a steel barrel.  Budd replaced some of the non-structural steel sheets in the floor with wood boards.  That brought the noise down to an acceptable level.  The welded panel body would become the norm and became the basis for unibody construction.  By the way,  Budd worked on the steel frame and panel Airflow body and had the same problems with the steel floor and used the same solution - wood boards in the floor. 

 

Cadillac was first with the electric starter in 1912.  It was developed by Charles Kettering of Dayton Engineering Laboratories Company (DELCO), a subsidiary of General Motors Company in Dayton, Ohio.

 

Fuel pumps back then were generally vacuum operated.  They had a tank mounted high on the firewall that used engine vacuum to pump fuel from the gasoline tank into the vacuum tank.  Another fuel line ran from the vacuum tank down to the carburetor which was mounted under the intake manifold.  This was an updraft carburetor.  The pump handle was handy when going up a steep hill and the tank was no longer higher than the carb or if the car sat for awhile and the vacuum tank needed some assistance to draw fuel.   In the late 1920s the mechanical fuel pump became the norm and was necessary with the new downdraft carburetor. 

 

Ford Model T and Model A cars used gravity feed as the fuel tank was mounted higher than than the engine - under the drivers seat on the T and in the cowl ahead of the driver on the A.

 

Although Dodge Brothers was not the first to use new developments, they did adopt them as soon as they proved their reliability, it seems.  Dodge Brothers adopted hydraulic brakes for 1928, first on the Senior Six and then Victory Six.  The Standard Six used mechanical brakes and was the last Dodge Brothers car to do so. DB was the first major player (top 10) to adopt hydraulic brakes after Chrysler.

 

 

[nearchoclatetown]

You are correct on the date for Cadillac at 1912. But in researching it that was not the first electric starter as is commonly believed. As to fuel pumps DB used the pressurized system, engine mounted pump and dash mounted hand pump, until about car number 34069 on Nov. 3 1915. There is a second line to the tank to carry air pressure to the tank to force fuel front to the carb. Then after car 34069 they used a vacuum system like many other cars.  This is documented in the engineering changes printed by the club. All Chrysler cars used hydraulic brakes after 1925, was not a DB design. It was just adopted when Chrysler bought DB. As to the body, yes Budd did make them. But Budd built bodies for several other car companies as well starting in 1913. If you look at the body tag the ALL- STEEL is hyphenated.  Several people I know think this is kind of like Home-Made labels in the grocery store. We all know DB had wood in the floors and running boards. 

[Ron Lawson]

DB had Hydrolic brakes BEFORE  the Chrysler Buy out in 1928 The first Dodge Brothers to have Hydrolic brakes was the 2249 Series Senior that started being produced in May 1927 Then came the Victory, Again before Walter P. Spent lots of money   Ron

[hwellens]

3 hours ago, Ron Lawson said:

DB had Hydrolic brakes BEFORE  the Chrysler Buy out in 1928 The first Dodge Brothers to have Hydrolic brakes was the 2249 Series Senior that started being produced in May 1927 Then came the Victory, Again before Walter P. Spent lots of money   Ron

Chysler had hydraulic brakes in 1924.

[keiser31]

40 minutes ago, hwellens said:

Chysler had hydraulic brakes in 1924.

Yep.

[Chrycoman]

 

Yes, Cadillac was not the first with an electric starter, but it was the first with a successful system that actually worked.  And that is what counts.

 

Not sure how the DB fuel pump worked on the 1915 models, but the hand pump was there to assist while starting the car.   Obviously the system was not the same as the later mechanical system, nor as successful.

 

For hydraulic brakes, all Chryslers built before the 1927 model year had hydraulic brakes.  That period included the Chrysler B 70 of 1924-25, 1926 Chrysler F 58, H 60, G 70 and E 80.  The 1927 Chrysler I 50 Four and the 1928 Chrysler I* 52 Four had mechanical brakes as standard with hydraulics as optional.  

 

Both Chrysler and Dodge Brothers purchased their hydraulic brake systems from Lockheed.  And as stated, Dodge Brothers introduced both the Senior Six and the Victory Six with Lockheed hydraulic brakes long before Chrysler purchased DB.  Yes, Chrysler was first in 1924, no one is stating otherwise, but Dodge Brothers was the second major auto company, after Chrysler, to adopt hydraulic brakes.

 

Budd, like all body builders, built bodies for a number of companies.  They were also the main supplier of bodies to Hupmobile and were noted for their work on developing all-steel bodies. 

 

And, yes, the Victory Six when first introduced had all-steel floors from the floor under the front seat floor back to end of the chassis.  As a matter of fact, the steel floor was initially welded to the chassis frame while the body, without a floor, was bolted to the frame from the sides.  The Victory Six and the later Airflow with its steel floor resulted in complaints of noise and thus the floors in both models had steel replaced by wood.   The 1935 Chrysler and DeSoto parts books list hold down parts and wood floor panels for the Airflow models while the 1934 Airflow models have no listings for hold down parts, no wood floor panels, but do list steel floor panels.

 

The first Victory Six was built on November 21, 1927.  On February 9, 1928, wood floorboards replaced the front seat steel pans on coupes and sedans.  The broughams had the change to wood done on February 13.  Wood replaced the steel rear compartment pans on February 29.  Chassis shipped out to body builders were advised not to remove the wood flooring as they were part of the chassis's structural integrity.  Wood runningboards replaced steel on March 19.

 

 

[cahartley]

From the Dodge book I mentioned above the Budd body building arrangement was explained.

Budd had some production trouble providing the Dodge Brothers with enough bodies to cover orders and also some fitment trouble with bodies, doors and such.

The Dodge boys worked with Budd and continued their arrangement with them on a plan where Budd would regularly provide production financial records to Dodge and Dodge would pay them their costs plus a "reasonable profit".

[stooy]

Thanks Guys!