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Everything posted by Chrycoman

  1. Back in the 1920's it was common for car companies to have two model years. One was generally the Engineering Department - start December/January - and the other Marketing people - start July/August. (No overlap) In the case of Graham-Paige the new models of cars went into production around December/January and were labelled as Second Series. Thus a car introduced in January, 1932 was considered a second series 1932 model. Come summer, and the new models went into production around July, and were labelled as first series. For a car introduced in July, 1931, the car was classified as a first series 1932, while July, 1932 was a first series 1933. For serial numbers, the "second series" began at x,xxx,001. Final "First series" serial numbers were recorded as the last number used for that series and the next number was the first number for the next series. For example - 1931 Second Series Model 53 (Jan 1931) - 1500001 to 1511600 1932 First Series Model 53 (Aug 1932) - 1511601 to 1511776 Actually, FDR's government was pushing for the auto industry to adopt the idea of new cars being introduced in the fall. And have one model year per annum. Chrysler Corp. adopted the August/Sep beginning for the model year with their 1933 models. Graham adopted the single model year idea (beginning in the fall) with their 1936 models.
  2. A larger version of the Combination Coupe / Business Coupe.
  3. The 1938 models were supposed to be in a 4 door Sedan, 2 door Combination Coupe. and 2 door Business Coupe. The Combination Coupe was to have a fold up seat in the area behind the driver while the Business Coupe had a flat floor for parcels, etc. The company had just the 4 door sedan at introduction time and planned on introducing the two door models early in 1938. They were hoping for good sales in the fall of 1937 and that would give them enough cash to tool and introduce the business and combination coupes. But the public was not enamoured with the Spirit of Motion and thus no money for the coupes. Instead, the company came up a new Combination Coupe for 1939, more along the lines of what auto manufacturers called a Club Coupe. The passenger compartment was shorter front to rear than the 4 door sedan with the rear seat closer to front seat. The roof was thus shorter than the sedan. The Graham brothers came up with the money (basically loans) to tool the new coupe and had it ready for the 1939 model year. The two door sedan used designed to use the Combination Coupe's doors and the 4dr Sedan roof line. The side panel was modified to fill the space from the front door to the roof. I have never actually seen a 2 door sedan, although one illustration, so I am not sure if it actually reached production. The model was listed on the factory prices lists for the 1939 and 1940 model years. Production of 1940 models did not begin until after the New Year and again listed 2 door sedan, 4 door sedan and 2 door Combination Coupe. Production of the Spirit of Motion came to an end in Spring, 1940. Graham tried again with the Hollywood, based on the Cord 810-812. But that was a dead end move.
  4. The Briscoe car was not related to the Maxwell-Briscoe, although Benjamin Briscoe was the man involved in both. Briscoe left Maxwell-Briscoe in 1913 headed for France where he formed Briscoe Freres wth his brother Frank. They decided to build a cyclecar named Argo. The U.S. operation got going in March, 1914, and in September moved the operation to Jackson, Michigan. The cyclecar market collapsed in 1916 and Briscoe sold the company to Mansell Hackett, who formed the Hackett Motor Car Company. During all this, Briscoe was working on a car of normal size with a 4 cylinder engine. The new Briscoe was displayed at the January ,1914, New York Automobile Show. The new car was the Briscoe model B, with a cyclops headlight. As a single headlamp was illegal in many states, the car didn't last long (1914-1915). The model B was on a 106" wheelbase with 4 cylinder engine with a 3-1/8" bore and 5-1/8" stroke for 157.4-cid. For 1916 came the 4-38 (3-7/16" x 5.1/8" - 190.5-cid) and 8-38 (3.00" x 3.50" - 197.9-cid) both 114" wheelbase 1917 - 4-24 engine - 4 cyl 3-3/16"x5-1/8" - 163.5-cid - 105" wheelbase 1918-19 - 4-24 engine - 4 cyl 3-3/16"x5-1/8" - 163.5-cid - 104" wheelbase 1920 - 4-24 engine - 4 cyl 3-3/16"x5-1/8" - 163.5-cid - 103" wheelbase 1921 - 4-34 engine - 4 cyl 3-3/16"x5-1/8" - 163.5-cid - 109" wheelbase In 1921 Briscoe sold his company to Clarence A. Earl who continued to build and sell cars, now called Earl, into 1922. Cars were built using parts stocked in the plant. Hope this helps.
  5. The 1940 grille had chrome strips mounted on the outer edges of all the grille bars. Also, the 1938 models had the series "Supercharger" stamped into the forward section of the chrome bar, in red. The 1939 models had "Supercharger" script on the side, rear end of the hood. If you look at the 1938- 39 models the grille bars slope inward as you go from top to bottom, leaving a gap between the bottom chrome edge and the grille bars above. The 1940 bars come almost straight down to the bottom - there is no gap between the bars and the bottom grille panel. The attached photo of the white 1938 model (running boards, bumper guards shaped similar to a knight's head) and the 1940 sedan you can see the differences if look at the front bottom of the grille.
  6. Casting numbers were not listed in the parts books, unless the casting number was the same as the part number (ie, the casting was the only piece under that number - no attachments). However, checking the parts book I can find 631840 as transmission case for 1936 Chrysler CZ and C6 and 631843 and 631844 were gears for CZ and C6. The same items were listed for the 1936 Plymouth, Dodge and DeSoto Airstream models. 631840 was also used on transmissions without overdrive from 1937 to 1939. Dodge Truck were issued part numbers in the 5's from, the F series through the H series.. Of course, if a truck part is used on a car the part number does not change.
  7. Actually, that's how Continental Engine got as big as it it did - building engines for other car companies, either to the customer's designs, or using a Continental design. And many auto companies listed the engines built by Continental as "Own". The first was Hudson, building Hudson-designed engines for Hudson. Hudson built their assembly plant on the north side of East Jefferson two block east of the Chalmers plant which was located on the south side of East Jefferson. Continental built their Detroit plant just east of the Hudson plant. Other manufacturers using Continental were - DeVaux, Durant, Erskine, Flint, Frazer, Graham, Kaiser, and Willys. By the way, the Dodge Senior Six engine was not assigned an engine number as it was not a Continental design. So, the 8-R may have been a similar sized Continental design, but the Dodge Senior Six was not 8R. Continental supplied engines to over one hundred makes in North America and over 60 four, six and eight cylinder engines for the first six decades of 1900's. So, yes, Dodge Brothers could have had Continental Engine build the Dodge Brothers designed Senior Six engine for them, just as Hudson and Graham had Continental build engines their firms designed.
  8. "Forgive me for my ignorance on this topic but at what plant were the Senior cars produced ? I cannot find the answers in my research on Seniors... I must simply be skipping over it somehow.. " Apparently Dodge Brothers built a separate plant for the 1st series Dodge Brothers Senior Six (2249). It was located on Lynch Road and Mt. Elliot Street. DB had purchased a large block of land and in 1917 built a plant at the east end of the site on Lynch Road to built armaments for France (it was WW I). That plant became the Graham Brothers Truck plant in 1924, and was used for Graham Brothers and then Dodge Trucks (January 1, 1929) until the Warren Truck plant opened in 1938. The plant was closed a few years back - the Detroit Axle plant. The Senior Six car plant on the west side of the site was used through to sometime around or after Chrysler acquired Dodge Brothers. Production was moved to the main Hamtramck plant. With that Chrysler began plans to expand the plant. When the expansion was completed in early 1929, the plant put out Plymouth cars, shifting production from the old Maxwell facilities in Highland Park. The Plymouth Lynch Road plant was used through 1981, building the R body models for 1979-81. The plant still stands, but not cars roll out the doors.
  9. And finally 1960 - the last year for the single headlamp system on the big Ramblers. Also attached is the 1961 Rambler. Note the rear of the car is similar to 1960, but the grille is completely new, and available only with four headlamps.
  10. For the 1959 models - Two headlamps standard on the Deluxe again. Four headlamps were optional. Note the difference in the grilles below the headlamps on the 1959 compare to 1958. Also notice the difference in the fin on the rear doors.
  11. The single headlamp system was standard equipment on the 1958 to 1960 Rambler Deluxe models, with four headlamps optional. Attached are photos of the 1958 models. Note the difference in the fin on the rear door, and the difference in the grille, comparing the 1958 to 1959 models.
  12. The grille, hood, bumper, valence panel, turn signals : 1959 Rambler Front End - 4 Headlamps 1960 Rambler Front End - Two Headlamps 1960 Rambler Front End - Four Headlamps
  13. This car is actually a 1959 Rambler Deluxe with a 1960 Deluxe front clip. The 1960 Rambler did not have fins and had larger vertical taillamps with a "fin" rolled over the top of the rear fender. Also, the 1960-62 Ramblers had a wraparound windshield with an angled A pillar. The 1956-59 Ramblers had a vertical A pillar. Also the rear window was enlarged and the C pillar thinned down. Attached are photos for a 1959 Rambler Deluxe 4dr Sedan (with optional dual lights) and a 1960 Rambler Deluxe with the standard single headlamps.
  14. Graham offered supercharging, Roots design, on their eight cylinder models prior to 1936, and then on sixes from 1936 to the end for 1941. The last eight cylinder Graham was built in 1935. The superchargers on the sixes were driven off a belt on the front of the engine, much like mechanical power steering. My father owned a 1936 Graham Supercharger 4 door touring sedan. He said the supercharger was not meant for racing or fast take offs from standing still, but for highway driving and passing. It gave the driver more power when it was needed. The only thing he did not like was the fact the supercharged engine used an aluminum head and thus had problems with blow head gaskets. He purchased the Graham in 1941 and traded it for a 1940 Plymouth in 1950.
  15. The tag you show was normal for that era. Not much info as there was not much in the way of options. That T-3 should remain as it has information on the Transmission - Fluid Drive instead of the normal clutch and flywheel, coupled with the three speed manual transmission. Most options were dealer installed as well - radio, heater, fog lights, license plate frames, wheel covers, wheel shields - they were usually put in the trunk for the dealer to install. Might have info listed as - MODEL BODY NO C30 02 1048 PAINT TRIM TRANS 226 3 SCHEDULE DEALER 82 - 601 18 1 01 You could choose a cloth and colour of your liking to install and place a code to match under Trim. Bill Vancouver, BC
  16. Yes, the Deluxe series had only two headlamps as standard from 1958 through 1960. For 1961 they moved the headlamps into the grille and that ended the single headlamps for the Deluxe models.
  17. Nothing exact, although Champagne Ivory is little darker than the colour on the car. Champagne Ivory was Nash code P-23 and was used from 1950 to 1953. Have attached a couple of scans of Nash paint charts. Problems with these scans is that many are done with cameras instead of scanners, so you land up with darker images due to light problems, or, lack of light problems. And monitors also present a problem due to colour settings. If you are going to do searches for a particular paint colour it is best to use a paint manufacturer's code as many times names were used by more than one company to describe different shades of colours. Some paint manufacturer codes for 1950-1953 Nash P-23, Champagne Ivory : Ditzler - 80437 Acme - 6783 Rinshed-Mason - 50N71 Sherwin-Williams - 43885 (lacquer) - 33284 (enamel) DuPont - 246-81509 (lacquer) - 93-81509 (enamel)
  18. Checked the Canadian 1940 parts book (the Canadian parts books before WW II had the US interior trim codes most years, but not the Canadian) and code 739 is for blue broadcloth. For Chrysler, when the 1941 models were introduced colours included Polo Green Light Metallic (326) and Polo Green Dark Metallic (314, 315). At serial numbers 7,668,675 (Royal), 7,917,851 (Windsor), 6,758,411 (Saratoga), 6,631,100 (New Yorker) the metallic Polo Green colours were replaced with - Polo Green Light (345, 346) and Polo Green Dark (334, 335) - non-metallic. Bill Vancouver, BC
  19. In Britain during the 1930's Plymouth, DeSoto and Chrysler were all sold as Chryslers by Chrysler Motors, Ltd., Richmond, Surrey, a wholly owned subsidiary of Chrysler Corporation, Detroit. For 1936 the P2 Plymouth DeLuxe (3-1/8" bore) was sold in the UK as the Wimbledon Six.. They also had a P2X (2-7/8" bore) sold as the Kew Six. RHD chassis (113" wheelbase) were imported from Detroit. Other cars in the UK 1936 Chrysler line included Airflows - Croydon (DeSoto Six), Heston (Chrysler Eight), Royal (Chrysler Imperial Eight). The Airstream Six (C7) was marketed as the Richmond Six and the Airstream Eight (C8) as the Kingston Eight. The UK cars also had 12v electrics. But that Carlton convertible is one gorgeous car!
  20. In the 1920's Chrysler Corp. contracted with different body companies. The Chrysler F 58 used bodies by Fisher for their open and closed models, while the H 60 used Fisher for the sedans and Chrysler (Kercheval plant) for coupes. The also used Fisher for G 70 open and closed models. The I 52 used Budd bodies. GM acquired total control of Fisher Body in 1926 and served notice that as of the end of the 1927 model year GM was cancelling all contracts to supply bodies for non-GM products. Briggs replaced Fisher Body. .
  21. Chrysler never offered a clock installed on the instrument panel of the Valiant, Lancer, or Dart. The steering column clock was offered as a dealer installed package on 1961-1962 Valiants and Lancers (code 1-21-1, part number 2290 424). As it was offered on the Lancer, it was avalable in the U.S. The 1961-62 Lancer was never built nor sold in Canada. .
  22. Those 145½" wheelbase Crown Imperials came as 8 passenger sedans or 8 passenger limousines. The limous had the partition. Both had full front and rear seats with 2 jump seats in the rear compartment. For the 1949-1952 models : Chrysler Crown Imperial (145½") - 609 sedans (8p) and 588 limousines Chrysler Saratoga (139½") - 183 sedans (8p) and 0 limousines (1951-1952) Chrysler Windsor Deluxe (139½") - 720 sedans (8p) and 152 limousines (1951-1952) Chrysler Windsor (139½") - 1,769 sedans (8p) and 247 limousines Chrysler Royal (139½") - 560 sedans (8p) and 0 limousines (1949-1950) DeSoto DeLuxe (139½") - 578 sedans (8) and 0 limousines DeSoto Taxi (139½") - 5,760 sedans (8) with partition DeSoto Custom (139½") - 1,825 sedans (8) and 0 limousines DeSoto Custom Suburban (139½") - 1,352 sedans (9 pass) - full seat in place of jump seats and fold up seats in rear for access to trunk compartment. DeSoto Firedome (139½") - 80 sedans (8) and 0 limousines (1952) Dodge Coronet (137½") - 3,207 sedans (8) and 0 limousines (1949-1951) 1949-1952 TOTAL - 16,643 sedans and 987 limousines DeSoto shipped taxi bodies in white to Waters Co, who completed taxi conversion and painted the bodies Chrysler continued with this body through 1954 updating the front clip and windshield. Production for the two years came to 1,949 sedans, 3,700 taxis and 188 limousines for DeSoto and Chrysler combined. A major update was done for 1955 with Chrysler expecting the demand for the LWB taxi to continue. LWB wheelbase was now 149.5". But NYC scrapped the LWB taxi regulations in 1954 in favour of standard sedans. Thus only the 1955 and 1956 Crown Imperials continued with Chrysler-built LWB models - 96 sedans and 302 limousines in total. And for 1957 Chrysler went with Ghia to supply the LWB limous. That 1950 Crown Imperial has "U.S.A. 178564" painted on the underside of the hood. This one may have originally belonged to the US military. Cadillac 67 and 75 LWB models and Packard Clippers were common cars as general staff cars in WW II. Somewhere along the line the straight eight was replaced by a hem V8.
  23. In the late 1920's Chrysler used numbers to denote the series, from 5x to 8x. The smallest were the 4 cylinder 5x models which became the Plymouth model Q for 1929. Next up was Chrysler's small six, model 6x and then the big six, model 7x. Top of the line was the model 80 Chrysler Imperial. The number, at least initially, was the top speed of the car. The engine size and wheelbase increased as the series number increased. 1926 - 58, 60, 70, 80 Imperial 1927 - 50, 60, 70, 80 Imperial 1928 - 52, 62, 72, 80 Imperial 1929 - 65, 75, 80 Imperial 1930 - 66, 70, 77, 80 Imperial (models went into production in July, 1929, before the Chrysler Building was finished. The Royal Sedan prices for the 66 series - $1,065, 70 series - $1,395, 77 series - $1,795, and 80 Imperial 4dr Sedan - $3,075. 1929 Plymouth Four model Q 4dr Sedan - $695 and DeSoto Six model K 4dr Sedan - $885 Nice range of prices, from Plymouth to Chrysler Imperial. A lower priced Six was added in March, 1930, model CJ, priced at $845 for the Royal Sedan. That would not have helped DeSoto sales.
  24. Codes 580 and 581 were used on 1937 Dodges for Dodge Blue. It was a Canada-only colour and is a dark blue. Code 580 had the body done in Dodge Blue with the fenders black and a wheel stripe in Packard Ivory. Code 581 was the same but with the fenders in Dodge Blue. The same shade of blue was available on Plymouths (Plymouth Blue), DeSotos (DeSoto Blue) and Chryslers (Chrysler Blue). And the shade was available on Dodge and Fargo Trucks. It was used again in 1938 and 1939. Pre-war Chrysler of Canada cars were done in lacquer paint while the trucks were done in enamel. After WW II Chrysler of Canada used enamel paints on all its cars and trucks. General Motors of Canada also switched to enamel paint after the war, and switched back to lacquer after the Oshawa plant began building cars for the U.S. market in 1968-69. Sherwin-Williams of Canada used code P-1193 for the lacquer version of Dodge Blue while the enamel was X-18111. C.I.L. code for Dodge Blue, in lacquer, was 246-8629. Sherwin-Williams of Canada had the following formula for Dodge Blue (using 1930's tints and paints) - 43½ parts Prussian Blue 5 Parts Bone Black 1½ parts White Attached is the paint chip for the 1937 Dodge Blue from the Sherwin-Williams of Canada paint chip book for Canadian-built 1937 cars. By the way, the tag that you found the paint colour on should have the model number on the first line and the interior trim code as the bottom line. Paint is line 3 and body number is line 2. Thus the first line should tell you what you have. D5 would be the US-style Dodge Custom Six, D6 the base, Plymouth-sized, Six and D7 the Plymouth-sized DeLuxe Six. The D6 was also built in the U.S. for export markets.
  25. Chrycoman

    DeSoto VIN

    According to Chrysler Corporation's Model Chart and Serial Number Guide for the DeSoto S11C at the Detroit plant - 1946 - 5,784,001 to 5,825,784 1947 - 5,825,485 to 5,885,815 1948 - 5,885,816 to 5,962,601 The 1946 models went into production at the end of the 1945 calendar year, 1947 model year began on January 1, 1947, and the 1948 series began in December, 1947. Production ended in January, 1949. The marketing people declared that cars built from December 1, 1948 (serial number 5,948,453) to the end of production were 1949 models. The Engineering Department, though, stuck to having the 1948 model year end in January, 1949. Now, the big problem with the 1946 to 1948 Chrysler Corporation cars is that virtually no changes were done year to year to easily tell them apart. Thus your 1947 DeSoto looks exactly the same as the 1948. So, the car dealer had a 1947 DeSoto on the lot and someone was looking for a new DeSoto and this car may have been exactly what he was looking for. To keep the new car owner happy and able to brag that he bought a brand new 1948 DeSoto, that 1947 DeSoto became a 1948 DeSoto. Or the title was issued in calendar year 1948 in a state that permits the calendar year a car is first sold to be recorded as the model year. Either scenario, your "1947" DeSoto is a 1948. Model years and calendar years are two different things. Calendar years always start on January 1 and end on December 31. Model years begin when a manufacturer says it does and ends when the manufacturer says it does. Many times a model year is less than twelve months. And many are more.
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