COOLING SYSTEM ADDITIVES

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

One of the members bought up a product called WATER WETTER in another post so I thought it might be interesting to start another topic dealing with cooling system additives. In the years past I had many Ford flathead V8 engines, these are prone to running hot because of their design. I did all the upgrades I could to keep the engines as cool as possible. New or clean radiator, clean engine block water passages, correct engine timing, truck water pumps, were the main things but I also used to use a product called EVANS COOLANT that completely replaced the anti freeze and water. This stuff prevents electrollisys and will not boil until over 300 degrees if I remember right. It did not depend on a pressurized system with a pressure cap. It might be great for our BUICKS also but I haven't tried it yet.

    WATTER WETTER is a less expensive additive. I bought some WATER WETTER because when the temperatures start getting hot again here in Las Vegas I will add it. The directions say to use 15% less antifreeze as WATTER WETTER has anti corrosive chemicals in it and if its hot out you don't need so much antifreeze. Nothing COOLS better than straight water but straight water needs chemical corrosive inhibiters to prevent electrolysis and something to keep it from freezing. Once water does finally start to boil it leaves the system completely which leaves even less water which just makes things even worse. I will try the WATER WETTER as I've got nothing to lose when the temps get in the nineties and up. At the present time with the outside temperatures in the seventies and lower my Buick runs at only 160 so I don't need to do anything yet but when July, August and September come around I'll be searching for solutions to help the cooling system even with a new water pump and a clean block and radiator. If WATTER WETTER doesn't make me happy I will try the EVANS COOLANT which might or might not make the engine run cooler but at least will never boil away.

Edited November 14, 2015 by LAS VEGAS DAVE (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Water Wetter merely reduces the surface tension of water, it doesn't really change the thermal transfer properties of the coolant. In essence, it's making the water conform to the rough inner surfaces of the water jackets, thereby increasing surface area for cooling and thermal transfer to the coolant. Its effects are small but noticeable in some cases. It is not a solution for overheating, but you might see a few degrees cooler running.

 

Here's a little-known secret: a teaspoon of dish detergent will do the same thing.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[26-25Buick]

I've often wondered about these higher boiling point coolants and thought are they friend or foe. Obviously they make it possible to run your car in higher ambient temperatures which is a good thing, but by doing this by their very design they could mask an issue with the cooling system as they don't boil like water. Now because they allow a higher engine temperature you would expect this also leads to greater thermal expansion of the internals of the engine which because it is now hotter than the original design could ultimately result in higher wear on moving parts and more issues with sealing surfaces as the tolerances are now less, plus any movement as a result of expansion is going to be greater. It would have me running for the textbooks but I think it's around a 0.003" more expansion at 300F to 160F. One thing you can be sure of at some point the higher temperature will reduce the viscosity of the engine oil reducing lubrication and pressure and depending on the temperature reached the additives in the oil and the oil itself will breakdown quicker. Friend or foe I guess depends what you are trying to achieve

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

I've often wondered about these higher boiling point coolants and thought are they friend or foe. Obviously they make it possible to run your car in higher ambient temperatures which is a good thing, but by doing this by their very design they could mask an issue with the cooling system as they don't boil like water. Now because they allow a higher engine temperature you would expect this also leads to greater thermal expansion of the internals of the engine which because it is now hotter than the original design could ultimately result in higher wear on moving parts and more issues with sealing surfaces as the tolerances are now less, plus any movement as a result of expansion is going to be greater. It would have me running for the textbooks but I think it's around a 0.003" more expansion at 300F to 160F. One thing you can be sure of at some point the higher temperature will reduce the viscosity of the engine oil reducing lubrication and pressure and depending on the temperature reached the additives in the oil and the oil itself will breakdown quicker. Friend or foe I guess depends what you are trying to achieve

 

The goal is to still run the coolant system at its designed temperature, probably 160 to 180 degrees, never 300 degrees. The good thing about EVANS is its ability not to boil away from hot spots in an engine that are present in all engines even if the coolant temperature at the spot where it is measured is much lower. We have unique cooling systems in our old cars compared to modern cars because we don't have pressure systems. Every time we drive our cars its possible to lose some coolant out the overflow tube if the engine even gets to only 190 degrees or more for only a very short time. The coolant will eventually find its own level and not lose any more unless a new high temperature is reached. With EVANS there will not be as much loss because it needs to get much hotter before it expands enough to go out the overflow tube. You are certainly right about the oil viscosity getting worse in a hot engine so a cool engine is still the goal. In my 38 I think the EVANS would be good at stoplights here in Las Vegas in the summer since that is where my temps start to rise and then traffic prevents the temperature dropping as fast as I'd like between lights. My only concern with EVANS is if the water pump can pump it fast enough as its a higher viscosity than water but probably nothing to be concerned about. 

[CarNucopia]

I've used WW with straight water in my Buick and saw the temperature drop by about 20 degrees. I never ran water without it, so I can't speak to how much of the drop can be attriuted to the WW. In addition to the improved cooling capabilities claimed, WW is supposed to provide corrosion protection too. It's worth making a phone call to Redline if you have any questions about it. The technical guy I spoke with seemed to be genuinely knowledgeable about what the product does. If I remember correctly, he had a Model T he used the stuff in.

[Barney Eaton]

I tried one of the products on my '39 and could see no difference in the water temp under similar conditions....... it was worth a try.

With the factory temp indicator it is difficult to get a accurate indication of the actual tempature for comparison.

[CarNucopia]

I tried one of the products on my '39 and could see no difference in the water temp under similar conditions....... it was worth a try.

With the factory temp indicator it is difficult to get a accurate indication of the actual tempature for comparison.

I've used one of these to measure the temperatures at various parts of the cooling system: 

 

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-61894.html

 

Not only does it give you a reliable way to measure the variation, you can also use it to trace hot spots.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

Years ago my Dad used a product called Rust-Master in everything that had a radiator and cooling system.  It was a cooling system rust inhibitor, water pump lubricant, anti-foamant, and mineral neutralizer.  He got started on it through his John Deere tractors that had a thermo-syphon cooling system.  He used this stuff for years and never had any problems with anything.  I have looked for the product at every auto parts retailer for several years now with no luck.  I will assume that it is no longer being produced.  It was a great product and it worked.  Has anyone else out there ever heard of or used this stuff?

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

When I used EVANS in my V8 flathead Ford I also saw no difference in temperatures but unlike water it would never lose coolant  even with the occasional 200 degree temperatures. Since it didn't lose coolant it always returned to 180 quite easily compared to when it lost water it had to be bought up to level or it would reach higher temperatures to easy. The RUST-MASTER product probably had something in it that the government deemed environmentally unsafe so not available anymore. Many good older products are now extinct because of this. It would be amazing if WW caused a drop of 20 degrees at idling in hot weather, that would be a dream come true for my 38 next summer.

[Dynaflash8]

I heard about Watter Wetter at a conference in California.  I tried it.  It did squat.  Waste of money to me.

[Barney Eaton]

I think everyone that works on their own car should own one of those infrared thermometers........I have one and it is very handy to check and find problems.

However I find they are difficult to use while driving...trying to stick your arm waaaaaaay out the window, point at the radiator and get a reading.  I tried to get the

wife to ride on the fender and shout out the readings but that did not work out either.

[LAS VEGAS DAVE]

Actually EVANS coolant will run a little hotter than the standard 50/50 anti freeze mix but it will not boil away from the metal hot spots inside an engine. The downside of EVANS is that since it runs a little hotter the engines oil temps will also be hotter, a trade off I don't particularly like. My preference at this time would be to continue with the present 50/50 anti freeze solution however only using half as much and then adding distilled water and a bottle of WATER WETTER to top off the system, I wouldn't expect a miraculous temperature drop but if it drops at all it would be better than nothing and the engine oil temperature wouldn't be worse. In my cars case there is no problem even in 100 degree temperatures as long as the car can move, but in my city the stoplights are long and numerous. I probably have to accept the fact that these cars do not cool down in hot temperatures if they are idling. The stock cooling system is a relic to the past and is the reason why pressurized systems came into the picture. If the outside temps are in the seventies or less the traffic and the traffic lights are not a problem. Part of the experience of driving an old car is the ability to recognize its limitations and to not ignore them. 

[Rod Frazier]

Barney, on my '40 Century I just have my wife point the laser at the heater core.  Works great!

[Barney Eaton]

I just purchased a gallon of Prestone concentrated antifreeze.  On the back it says it has boiling protection to 265F (with a 15 lb cap)

All the charts show that each lb of pressure raises the boiling point of water 3 degrees F  (45 + 212 = 257 F)  

That would indicate the antifreeze give you 8 extra degrees with a 15 lb system.

I wonder if you get the same 8 degrees on a lower pressure system?

 

I also noted the already mixed (50/50) antifreeze was $3 cheaper.     Do the math....I paid just under $11 for a gallon of concentrate, a gallon of distilled water at Wal Mart is $1, for $12 I have 2 gallons of 50/50.  $8.50 for the already mixed Prestone would cost $17 for two gallons of mixed or $5 more than mixing your own, or another way of saying it is they are charging you $2.50 a gallon for water.