Canadian Pontiacs question

[cahartley]

Craig, we sure are blessed to have such minds who are willing to help answer questions. Sometimes mine get a bit technical but with good intent hoping someone will be reading that has the answers or know of someone who will. It just seems that the more I dig and the more people contribute, it often leads to new questions like mine above

I'm not even a Pontiac guy but this thread is one of the most interesting threads anywhere I've read in a long time.

Or do I lead a REALLY boring life?.......

Nah........it's the thread.......

[nzcarnerd]

What engines were in the GTO's? That's the tale of the tale.

From memory it was a 400/4 speed. I assume it was privately imported. I saw it in 1982 but I did have a ride in it and was impressed by its performance compared with my '65 Bonneville. It probably had the standard 3.55 rear end because I think its top speed was only about 110 mph but it got there very quickly. By comparison, I think the Bonneville with its 2.56 rear end would have a higher top speed but take longer to get there - I know it could peg the speedo easily enough.

At the time the owner also had a 1970 455 GTO, US built I presume but sold new in NZ with right hand drive. I think the original owner was involved in the local motor industry.

[8E45E]

That is what puzzled me about the GTO and possibly Firebird. They were the only Pontiacs sold in Canada that had Pontiac engines.

The full-size and intermediate lines were also available in Canada in those years, but one had to usually special order them. My aunt was insistent on buying a brand new 1962 Bonneville, and the dealer tried to talk her out of it and attempted to sell her a Buick Invicta for the same amount of money that was immediately in stock. However, she held firm and got her brand new Bonneville.

Here is a Canadian-market ad for a '62 Bonneville:

Craig

Edited November 30, 2014 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Guest]

The full-size and intermediate lines were also available in Canada in those years, but one had to usually special order them. My aunt was insistent on buying a brand new 1962 Bonneville, and the dealer tried to talk her out of it and attempted to sell her a Buick Invicta for the same amount of money that was immediately in stock. However, she held firm and got her brand new Bonneville.

Here is a Canadian-market ad for a '62 Bonneville:

Craig

The picture you show is the same picture on the owners manual cover of U.S. built Pontiac's. I have a 62 Catalina. What is interesting in your picture add for Canada is the car is a U.S. version drawn with Wide-Track stance.

[8E45E]

The picture you show is the same picture on the owners manual cover of U.S. built Pontiac's. I have a 62 Catalina. What is interesting in your picture add for Canada is the car is a U.S. version drawn with Wide-Track stance.

The Bonneville (along with the Catalina, Star Chief and Grand Prix) sold in Canada were U.S.-made cars, and had the wide-track stance. I always liked the U.S. Pontiacs from an early age. They were far better appointed than the Canadian-made Chevrolet-based cars, although there were some rather unique versions. This would include 1967 Grande Parisiennes which had a Grand Prix-like front end with the hideaway headlights, but Grande Parisiennes were also available in four door hardtop and stations wagons as well. I don't believe any U.S.- made 1967 Pontiac 4 doors or wagons had hideaway headlights.

Craig

[Guest]

The Bonneville (along with the Catalina, Star Chief and Grand Prix) sold in Canada were U.S.-made cars, and had the wide-track stance. I always liked the U.S. Pontiacs from an early age. They were far better appointed than the Canadian-made Chevrolet-based cars, although there were some rather unique versions. This would include 1967 Grande Parisiennes which had a Grand Prix-like front end with the hideaway headlights, but Grande Parisiennes were also available in four door hardtop and stations wagons as well. I don't believe any U.S.- made 1967 Pontiac 4 doors or wagons had hideaway headlights.

Craig

The only 67 Pontiac with hideaways was the G/P

[8E45E]

The only 67 Pontiac with hideaways was the G/P

Here is a link to the 1967 full-size Canadian Pontiac brochure. http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1967%20Pontiac%20Brochure/dirindex.html

Craig

[Rusty_OToole]

For those US readers who are still confused, Canadian Pontiacs were actually Chevrolets in Pontiac suits. If you took a US Chevrolet and welded on Pontiac fenders, grille, etc you would have a Canadian Pontiac. They even used Chevy steering wheels and dashboards with Pontiac emblems in some models.

This is why they were cheaper to tool up and cheaper to build. GM Canada already had the tooling for Chevrolet.

[X-Frame]

On a side note adding to another thread here, did the 1940 Chevrolet built in Canada and exported to Australia - did the Cabriolet (cabriolet/roadster) have the same oddball chassis with the weird X-like brace as the American counterpart or was it swapped out with the Holden type X used in '37-'39?

I am going to answer my own question here where I got an answer on another forum. There were no 1940 Chevy Convertibles in Australia, only closed bodies. I understand there was one import and it still exists. Australia entered the war in 1939 and by 1940 the Holden body works were gearing up for the war effort.

It is just mind boggling to me how low the numbers of American designed cars are sold in countries that even built them. We in in the states are spoiled with our throw-away multi-car excess society. And even though we do have some areas of the country that are sparse in populations, places like Canada with their tundra and Australia's outback are vast and population centers are very confined (isolated). I suspect cars in the wilderness is not a necessity for everyday use but more for monthly trips or emergencies so they last longer? I am not sure but possibly like what we see in Cuba where people are still driving 1940s and 1950s cars today?

On a side note, in one Mad Max movie shot in Oz, there was a scene of a pile of junk cars with one showing a quite unique X on a car that is more of a squeezed H and it took a while but someone identified it as a Toyota Crown from the early 1960s. It had a massive frame overbuilt for the car and was not a good seller in the state because the frame weight made the car slow and sluggish. Just sharing a tidbit

[nzcarnerd]

The Toyota Crown retained separate chassis construction for the wagon version right through to 1999 (I think the sedan went to unit body in the early 1990s). I have owned a 1987 JDM wagon (actually a commercial van version) since 1991 but have never taken much notice of the chassis form when it has been on the hoist. The Crown sold well in Oz because they built them there through to the 1980s and they were a popular alternative to the local Holdens and Falcons being generally better equipped.

[X-Frame]

Here is a link to the 1967 full-size Canadian Pontiac brochure. http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/Canada/1967%20Pontiac%20Brochure/dirindex.html

Craig

Okay... can see that the Canadian version of Grand Prix is Grand Parisianne but what I also see odd here... the Safari in Canada uses the Grand Prix front end (hide away headlights) while the American version is based on the Bonneville. Why the mismatch?

[8E45E]

Okay... can see that the Canadian version of Grand Prix is Grand Parisianne but what I also see odd here... the Safari in Canada uses the Grand Prix front end (hide away headlights) while the American version is based on the Bonneville. Why the mismatch?

No Canadian Pontiac had concealed windshield wipers, or Astro Ventilation like the Grand Prix. Even though the Grande Parisiennes LOOK the same as a Grand Prix, there are some differences such as having vent windows. As far as WHY that is, I cannot answer.

Craig

[X-Frame]

No Canadian Pontiac had concealed windshield wipers, or Astro Ventilation like the Grand Prix. Even though the Grande Parisiennes LOOK the same as a Grand Prix, there are some differences such as having vent windows. As far as WHY that is, I cannot answer.

Craig

Wipers may have been due to the snows in Canada? I use to own a '67 Grand Prix as well as other GM hidden wipers and they can end up being encapsulated in the snow we get here in Virginia. Not sure about the vents other than possibly again weather since the front glass sets more flush to the body with them over time?

[8E45E]

Wipers may have been due to the snows in Canada? I use to own a '67 Grand Prix as well as other GM hidden wipers and they can end up being encapsulated in the snow we get here in Virginia. Not sure about the vents other than possibly again weather since the front glass sets more flush to the body with them over time?

That would not really be a plausible explanation as hidden wipers and Astro Ventilation was expanded to the Chev Caprice and some of the Impala line for 1968 along with the corresponding Canadian Pontiacs. Of course one could have purchased a '67 Grand Prix in Canada at the time, and it would have been the same as any U.S. market Grand Prix.

Craig

[X-Frame]

That would not really be a plausible explanation as hidden wipers and Astro Ventilation was expanded to the Chev Caprice and some of the Impala line for 1968 along with the corresponding Canadian Pontiacs. Of course one could have purchased a '67 Grand Prix in Canada at the time, and it would have been the same as any U.S. market Grand Prix.

Craig

Oh well, it was just an idea

[Joe in Canada]

GM also put Ford 3 speed standard transmission's in GTOs in 1968.

[Joe in Canada]

I do not remember the years but they also put aluminum hoods on the B body station wagons in Oshawa. They had a lighter spring than the steal hood and if you had the wrong ones on the aluminum hood they would close like a rat trap.

[X-Frame]

Not to hijack the thread but did want to ask here since I have a good Canadian and Aussie audience, does anyone have a workshop manual that shows the cabriolet (roadster) frame of the 1937-1939 Chevrolet with the added Holden X brace? Or is it even shown in them? It is unique to these years cars and no 1940 exported to Australia yet it too had a unique chassis configuration. Seeking photo, diagram, sketch of them if available. Thanks!

Edited December 1, 2014 by X-Frame (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

Oshawa's CKD department was in the back of the north parts building where they crated car parts to be shipped elsewhere for assembly. I do not know about the early years but in the 60s Oshawa had a heavier built frame than the US in the B body cars. They are highly desired by the hydraulic crowd for standing up better on all the stress the frame goes through than the US made frame. So I is possible that the Holden X frame brace was a standard frame on an Oshawa built car and not just made for Holden. Sorry I have no manuals for that time. Look up Ken Magee auto literature I think he is in Goderich ? Ont. Canada for a Canadian manual or if they were the same manual with an insert.

You will be hard pressed to find a Chevy made in Canada in 1940 very rare as Canada went to war WW2 in 1939 and if you did find one all the chrome was painted over referred to as black out and had a military connection in some way for the war effort.

Good luck Joe

[Guest Magoo]

The first Canada-specific Pontiac product was the Arrow line introduced in 1939. Its purpose was to give Pontiac franchises in Canada a Chevrolet-priced car to sell. Canada has slightly more land area than the USA but only one-tenth the population, so its dealer networks are spread very thin. Along with the Arrow, which was simply a Chevrolet with Pontiac badges and trim, Canadian Pontiac dealers also sold the standard USA Pontiac line.

The Ford Motor Co. of Canada did much the same thing with its Meteor and Monarch lines. To provide Mercury dealers with a Ford-type product, the Meteor was introduced, while the Monarch was created to give Ford dealers a Mercury-class product in their showrooms. Thus they maximized their dealer network across the country. Both dealer networks still sold USA-style Fords and Mercurys, too.

More here:

http://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/2014/09/18/the-cars-of-canada/

[PONTIAC1953]

In addition to sheet metal Canadian Pontiacs' had no Pontiac engines , transmissions , rear ends and chassis/ frame and Wide Track. Comparing a 1959 Canadian Pontiac to a 59 U.S. version it is painfully obvious why Knudsen widened the U.S. cars track.

that is just not true, depending on which canadian models, early 1950's canadian pontiacs either had a chevy engine or a pontiac engine. but the transmission, chassis/frame, and rearend were chevy's.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

[PONTIAC1953]

Your friends car is a "A" body, and all Pontiac's rode on a "A" body from 1949-1958, 1959 cars were "B" bodies. Meaning from the front cowl back is the same. The interesting part about the 49-1952 post war bodies is the basic body is shared between Chevrolet, all Pontiac's and Olds 88. The chassis/frame for those three cars is different. The Chevrolet has a 115" wheelbase with leaf springs in the rear and a closed driveshaft, Olds has a 119.5" wheelbase, coil springs in the rear and a open driveshaft. Pontiac (U.S. Pontiac) has a 120" wheelbase, leaf springs and a open driveshaft. The Pontiac has the longest wheelbase ( all the extra length in the front end) because of the straight eight engine. Canadian Pontiac's in those years were called "stubbies" and or "snub nose's" because their front end fenders were as short as a Chevrolet and styling wise didn't quite look as well proportioned as the U.S. version.

I will tell you something else. In 1954 Pontiac came out with a new model called StarChief, though the car was built as a "A" body it had a longer wheelbase and a trunk extension making it look as big as GM "B" bodies. This lasted in the series through the 58 model year. A FYI the 57 and 58 Bonneville and 55-57 Safari wagon were built on the short wheelbase Chieftain chassis.

In 1953 and 54 U.S. Pontiac's receive a chassis/frame change ( besides the 54 StarChief long deck ) in the form of front frame and steering box/ shaft location. The reason for this change is U.S. Pontiac's were supposed to get their V-8 engine, so if you look at the chassis /frame of those cars the V-8 is frame ready. The reason the Pontiac engine was held back for two years was Buick was introducing the new nail head V-8 and didn't want another division to steal away it's news. Buick pleaded it's case to Corporate and Corporate held Pontiac back.

Many people of those times considered Pontiac to be a old mans car or the most conservative of the five divisions. The image problem wasn't Pontiac's fault, it was the Corporations fault, in engineering and in styling. GM's Art and Color department controlled how the cars looked. In the years before Knudsen (1957) the corporation was the one that made people think Pontiac was a old mans car.

it wasn't just buick that went crying to the GM board of directors about pontiac's plan to introduce the new overhead valve 287 strato-streak V8 engine in 1953, oldsmobile went along with buick to protest. both buick and olds had very small portions of the new car buyers pie, both first time buyers and repeat buyers, and they didn't want to lose any of those buyers to a new 53 - 54 pontiacs with a new V8 at a lower price than olds and buick, the buyer would have a new GM product at a lower price, leaving the buyer with more money to spend on options and accessories. pontiac was ordered by the board of directors to waiting until 1955, the directors believing that by then, perhaps even chevy would have it's new V8 engine ready for production. how pontiac must have felt like they were the unwanted redheaded stepchild. i always look forward to reading what mr helfen has to say about pontiacs and oldsmobiles, i hope someday, he might consider writing his own book about both oldsmobiles and pontiacs.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

[8E45E]

Both dealer networks still sold USA-style Fords and Mercurys, too.

Ford's Mercury division was disbanded in Canada in 1999. The stronger Lincoln-Mercury dealers were converted to Ford-Lincoln dealers and remain so today.

Craig

[Guest]

that is just not true, depending on which canadian models, early 1950's canadian pontiacs either had a chevy engine or a pontiac engine. but the transmission, chassis/frame, and rearend were chevy's.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

Yes Charles, and I corrected myself in thread #38 which I copied below:

A re-trace of my thread above about early 50's stubbie Canadian Pontiacs from one of my books says that U.S. type Pontiac engines (six cylinder flat heads) were used from the twenties to the end of 1954, no mention of the straight eight being used. 1955 would be the start of the real differences.

Also, those Canadian Pontiac flatheads when they came with automatic's were Powerglides. This is probably the reason late production U.S. Pontiac's got Powerglide when the HydraMatic factory burned down in the fall of 1953. The tooling was already done because is was used in Canadian Pontiac's. Unlike Cadillac and Olds who had to adapt their engines to Dynaflow.

Just a little more info.

In 1937 the Canadian factories turned out the first Pontiac's that differed in a significant way from U.S. models. The difference mainly, the engine. A 224 " OHV Chevrolet was used, it had a 1/16 larger bore than the Chevrolet counterpart. That engine holds the distinction of being the first OHV engine used in a Pontiac. The series was called the 224.

A important changed happened at Pontiac in 1941. For the next few years ( to 1954 which I was referring to above ) Canadian Pontiac would continue to use Chevrolet bodies with Pontiac trim and Chevrolet chassis, but the engines would be U.S. flathead sixes.

Edited December 1, 2014 by helfen (see edit history)

[earl e rizer]

The 29 Pontiac in my avatar was an Oshawa Canada built car that had been in a Pontiac dealer's back barn since around 1954 when he took it in on trade. I pulled it out in 2004 with all of it's original Canadian rust!

[John_Maine]

Ford's Mercury division was disbanded in Canada in 1999. The stronger Lincoln-Mercury dealers were converted to Ford-Lincoln dealers and remain so today.

Craig

However, Ford dropped the Crown Vic in 2000 and sold the Grand Marquis in its place for quite awhile longer. I had a cousin in PEI who always had Crown Vics and was irritated that he had to buy a Grand Marquis in 2000. If you looked at the Ford website for Canada, the Grand Marquis was listed along side the Taurus, Fusion and Focus.

[8E45E]

However, Ford dropped the Crown Vic in 2000 and sold the Grand Marquis in its place for quite awhile longer. I had a cousin in PEI who always had Crown Vics and was irritated that he had to buy a Grand Marquis in 2000. If you looked at the Ford website for Canada, the Grand Marquis was listed along side the Taurus, Fusion and Focus.

There were a couple of Mercury cars sold in Canada, including the Grand Marquis, Marauder and Cougar after 1999, and they were sold at Ford dealers despite the Mercury badging, because there were no more Mercury dealers in Canada after that. Gone was the Sable after 1999, and yet some models the like (2000's era) Montego and Mountaineer were never marketed at all in Canada.

Craig