New to the Riviera question

[DaveC6970]

Hello,

My name is Dave and I'm a first time poster, but a longtime (5 mo.) lurker. I must say I've learned lot without ever asking the first question, thank you all. Most of my experience has been with Chevys, a couple 60's impalas and recently mid 60's trucks, but had always wanted an early Riviera. A job relocation sort of forced me to sell my 66' Suburban, but also gives me the chance to get my first Riv. It was sad to let the Burb go but the job took me from the Midwest to sunny Southern California, so not all bad.

Following the advice of the forum I joined the Riviera owners club back in September, money well spent. I've been diligently looking ever since we got to California and finally think I've found a nice car for a decent price. There is one issue, the car hasn't ran in about a year so I thought before I tried to start it I'd ask you guys what you thought.

Here's the rundown. The car is a 66' two owner car, the current family bought it with approximately 3000 miles, it has almost 67,000 actual now. It's has what looks like the original white paint and a very nice original blue interior. Options as I can tell, strato bench seat, tilt wheel, power seat, power windows, power antenna, cornering lights. I checked as best I could for rust and could find none, it was a little tough the car is in a tiny garage and was hard to get around.

I really need to see the car in the light of day to check it better. The owner is a elderly woman who can no longer use the car. Her daughter said the last time it ran was about a year ago and she was the one who parked it where it is now. I tried to start it but the battery was dead so I brought it home and put it on the battery tender. This morning the tender green "storage" light is on so I believe the battery is good.

Before I try and start it, is there anything I should know specific to the Buick? My plan was simple, crank it over and if it didn't start add a little gas to the carb. I'd like to avoid the starting fluid but maybe if it doesn't fire? I'd hate to hurt the engine. If it's sat a year I'm sure the gas is old but where it's at I have no way to drain it. Any advice you have about getting this old girl running would be appreciated.

Thanks again, Dave

[Jim Cannon]

One year without running is not too bad.

Don't crank the starter motor so long as to overheat it. Try to limit to 20 seconds at a time with 2 minutes between to cool off. 20 seconds of cranking is a long time.

It would be good to crank it and not start it until you see the oil pressure light go out. Now you know you have gotten oil out to all the bearings before hitting them with a load. That cranking will also fill the carb with fuel. It will be empty after sitting all this time.

If you can get to the fuel filler neck, you can siphon out the old gas, then add 5 gallons of fresh fuel to mix with what remains in the tank after siphoning. But honestly, I would not worry about 1 year old fuel. As soon as you can, add more fresh fuel to dilute out the bad.

The choke is often stuck after sitting a long time. Take off the air cleaner, operate the throttle by hand, and see how free the choke is. You can move it around with your fingers to free it up. You should then watch for it not wanting to open after it starts. Open it slowly with your fingers if you have to. There is also a flapper valve in the exhaust on the passenger side. While the engine is cold, reach down there and move the weight around a few times to free it up.

Other than that, just fire it up!

If you keep the air filter housing open, watch for back-firing fuel and flames if you pour gas down the carb throat! Do not look down into the carb while cranking. Keep a fire extinguisher handy.

[DaveC6970]

Thanks Jim,

That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm going to try and get it started this weekend for a better inspection out in the light of day. The car does have a few dings in the body that I could see, but that was kind of expected with an elderly owner and a small garage. I couldn't find any signs of rust but the car has spent its whole life garaged in California. If I get it outside I'll post some pic's.

Thanks again, Dave

[1965rivgs]

Dave,

After some cranking, as Jim suggests, to fill the fuel bowl you may need to give the engine some help by priming with fuel or starting fluid. Either alternative is OK but if I had to choose one, especially for a novice, I would lean toward ether. No worries about spilling it and creating puddles here and there to catch fire. Also, unless you use enough ether to cause puddling in the intake, no worries about a backfire creating flaming balls of fire around the car and in an enclosed area like a small garage. If you use gasoline I would definitely recommend putting the air cleaner/flame arrestor back in place before cranking.

If the engine shows no sign of coughing to life after priming with either source of fuel then check to be sure you have spark. Occasionally, after sitting for an extended period of time the points can stick open or corrode over causing no spark. Shouldnt be a problem in a dry climate like California but worth noting for others in a more humid climate. Sometimes a year in a sellers description is closer to ten. Good luck, sounds like a nice, original piece,

Tom Mooney

[JZRIV]

Dave,

Welcome to ROA and the Forum. Sounds like you did your homework and as a result got a fine example. A 66 suburban for a 66 Riv is definitely a step up! Look forward to hearing and seeing more about your car in the near future.

[DaveC6970]

Tom,

You know thinking back every time I primed an engine with gas from a little squeeze bottle the car was outside. The last thing this area needs is another fire. Based on the small confines I'm thinking starting fluid used sparingly may be the ticket. With any luck a charged battery and a few cranks gets the job done. I'm dying to see it outside.

Thanks, Dave

[DaveC6970]

Jason,

Haven't pulled the trigger yet but if she runs and drives I will definitely make an offer. I know for sure it needs a paint job, it has a few small dings and paint touch ups. But the trim looked nice and straight and the interior looked almost flawless. Hopefully today or tomorrow I'll get it running.

The Burb wasn't so bad. I was looking for a mid 60's wagon, but that was back when wagons were just getting popular (and pricey). I stumbled across a nice Burb and it became the perfect family cruiser, especially when my boys were little. I'll post a pic if that's allowed.

Thanks, Dave

[DaveC6970]

Well, I installed the charged battery and tried to start the Riv today and got some mixed results.

The good, the engine turned over nicely and would run when primed with starting fluid or gas. So it does run, but is loud, the exhaust has a hole somewhere.

The bad, I pulled the fuel line from the carb and there was no fuel. The gas gauge read E so I put some fresh in the tank but only about a gallon, only had a small can. I cranked a few more sessions but nothing. Pulled the carb line again still no fuel. I cranked it long enough I believe for the fuel to reach the carb. I didn't want to crank too long, didn't want to burn up the starter or run down the battery. It shouldn't take that long for fuel to reach the carb should it? My next move was to check the fuel filter between the pump and the carb. Then fuel pump I guess working my way back to the tank.

Even though the car wasn't running I did try to check the electrical accessories since I had a fresh battery, results not so good. The power seat controls on the door, only the center one seemed to do anything. The front and rear paddles, I assume for tilt?, did nothing. All 4 power window switches on the DR door did nothing. I assume all of these features should work with the key in the run position? Power antenna makes some noise but does not move, in the down position now. Also tried the blower switch on the heater control, nothing. Shouldn't the blower motor at least run? I plan to point out all these nonfunctioning items when negotiating a price, I'm guessing these May not be inexpensive or easy fixes.

One bright note, the headlights did open and close!

Dave

[RivNut]

On Rivieras from this era (63 - 65,) the power for the seats and windows comes directly from a hot wire in the back of the fuse box. You don't need the key at all to run the windows or move the seat. Sounds like something deeper. Here'a trick I learned from one of the ROA tech advisors to check to see of power is getting to the motors for the windows and/or seat. With the engine off and the door open so a dome light is on, hit the seat / window switch. If power is getting to the motor and the motor is stuck (or the windows stuck in their tracks) there should be a current draw to that motor and the dome light will dim while trying to operate the seat / window. Those accessories run off a circuit breaker located behind the kick panel on the driver's side. If you can pull it, you can use a test light to see if you're getting power to the circuit breaker. One circuit breaker is used for the seats and the windows. If there's current to the circuit breaker (brown wire) but nothing on the other pole (red wire) the circuit breaker is bad. If that's so, a replacement could cure all of your ills.

Ed

Edited January 20, 2014 by RivNut (see edit history)

[68RIVGS]

Not sure what era you mean Ed, but for '68 the key must be 'ON' (...run, or accessory position), for any of the power accessories to work ??

Dave - Some of the wires running to the switches in the drivers door get brittle and connections corrode with age, and they may even be broken from constant flexing with the opening and closing of the driver's door. Other electrical issues can also be caused by poor, corroded, or missing ground connections in 40+ year old Riviera wiring circuits.

Sounds like the fuel starvation situation will need to be resolved in order to get the car running. My guess would be fuel pump, or a blocked, or collapsed rubber fuel line?

You might be able to clear the line by blowing compressed air through it - remove the gas filler cap if you do this, so the pressure can escape.

[RivNut]

I'm referring to the first generation era; I should have been more specific.

[DaveC6970]

Thanks for the tips guys, sounds like electrical gremlins can be sorted. The non-starting situation bothers me a bit more. I've changed a fuel pump on a SBC, is the nailhead any different? I would much rather sort this with the car in my garage instead of the current owners. I'm tempted to make her an as is offer and have it towed to my house. My only concern with this is that I don't know if the tranny works.

I haven't mentioned the price yet, they are asking $8500. If I had found this a running drive able car in its current condition with functioning accessories that may have been a reasonable price. But it's neither running or driving but still a clean unmolested car that needs paint and some issues sorted out. I was thinking of offering them 6K as it sits and flat bed it to my place. Does this sound fair/reasonable?

Any advice is appreciated. Dave

[JZRIV]

Thanks for the tips guys, sounds like electrical gremlins can be sorted. The non-starting situation bothers me a bit more. I've changed a fuel pump on a SBC, is the nailhead any different? I would much rather sort this with the car in my garage instead of the current owners. I'm tempted to make her an as is offer and have it towed to my house. My only concern with this is that I don't know if the tranny works.

I haven't mentioned the price yet, they are asking $8500. If I had found this a running drive able car in its current condition with functioning accessories that may have been a reasonable price. But it's neither running or driving but still a clean unmolested car that needs paint and some issues sorted out. I was thinking of offering them 6K as it sits and flat bed it to my place. Does this sound fair/reasonable?

Any advice is appreciated. Dave

Pics would really help before attempting to judge value but can tell you for a non-running car that price is high. So they said it ran about a year ago? Is there physical evidence of that? Problem is we all lose track of time and sellers subconsciously tend to sugar coat such comments that can't be proven. It could have been 2 or 4 years so you don't know what inside of the tank looks like. If all gas is evaporated from lines it takes awhile to pump up and time can vary based on specific conditions like cranking speed but within 60 (total, stopping and starting) seconds usually you should have gas at carb. 1 gallon of gas in the tank may not be enough but 2-3 should be.

I would replace/bypass the fuel filter with a cheap inline unit. Connect a new rubber hose to the fuel pump inlet and the other end into a gas can. It might be easier to have lines/filter already made up so when you get there you can just disconnect both supply and outlet lines at pump and carb and connect the new. Always be very careful when working with gas cans using this method. I have a can with a hole drilled in the cap the size of a rubber hose just for this purpose to prevent accidental spillage.

Pumps are fairly easy to replace. The trannys in these cars are very robust and with that mileage all it should need is new fluid/filter and external seals. Despite this there is always some risk.

Electrical problems are common on these old cars that sit. As long as you don't see signs of melted wiring harnesses you should be able to solve those issues fairly easy with a shop manual wiring diagram as it sounds like you have some experience.

$6k as-is is more than reasonable. Yes better chance of negotiating if it doesn't run but you take all the risk. By the time you get it road worthy and safe better figure on investing another $2k min doing the work yourself and thats if there are no major problems. Brake system overhaul alone will be $600. Exhaust system $350, Tires? All rubber hoses, belts, full tuneup, fluids, hope radiator is OK, etc. Then paint? Have you priced new paint jobs on a big car lately?

I'd probably rather get it running, confirm engine condition and transmission. If I wasn't going to get it running I'd do a compression test on each cylinder so at least you have some idea of engine condition.

Edited January 20, 2014 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[DaveC6970]

Jason, thanks for the advice.

The more I think about it even 6K may be too much considering all the possible issues. It may be a smarter move to pass on this car and spend more for a car that's already sorted. I don't have a problem with doing the work myself and I really want to help this family out. They had advertised this car before and people were trying to low ball her, saying the motor was locked up when it was just a dead battery. They must think since she is in her 80's she won't know any better, or maybe they didn't, who knows. I do think this car is too nice to leave sitting in her garage, it needs to be brought back to life.

Since the car is in California I checked to see the registration status to avoid any back fees (a California thing). It came back as no longer in the system, this means the last time anyone registered this car for driving or non-op (CA thing) was over 4 years ago. This tells me that the "drive" they took a year ago in this car were no more than around the block, which is kind of what they implied. So any real use this car has seen was a more than just a year ago. This also means even if it runs and moves I would play it safe and tow it home.

I'm thinking an as is offer is my path forward, cause either way I'm towing it home. I'm also retinking my 6K offer to maybe start at 5K and leave budget for other fixes. I believe they turned down 5K before but maybe with an explanation of what it will take to get her back to life maybe they will take it. I have some pic's on phone that I will post.

Thanks again to everyone who has chimed in! Dave

[tenugent]

Dave offer 4k and leave your #.nobody is going to give them close to 8.5k for a non running car.they told you they turned down 5k-they also told you they were driving it last year.Jasons right about all the things to go through.you have to fiqure all cost as farming the work out.I just finished my 63-did all the work myself besides seats.didnt touch engine-trans-exterior paint.8-9k.goodluck.T.Nugent roa 12969...

[JZRIV]

Dave,

Since it seems like they trust you, As you suggest maybe write down all the costs it will take to get the car road worthy and safe so they will better understand an offer like $5000 which sounds reasonable. The color combination isn't helping the the value either. Folks not in the hobby have no idea what repairs/parts costs and heck, for that matter a good percentage of folks in the hobby often under estimate repair costs by 50%. Prices I quoted are DIYS and just a starting point. You can easily double it for labor. A quality (not concourse or high end) paint job will be $8000-$10,000 min.

You have a challenge for sure. I've seen it many times where the seller thinks they have a gold mine and don't want to have an open mind that can be changed with facts because they fear of being taken advantage of.

[RockinRiviDad]

Dave, for that matter a good percentage of folks in the hobby often under estimate repair costs by 50%.

AMEN brother! I am a Newb at getting my 65 going & I'm sorry to say but it's not cheap…I TOTALLY under estimated the costs

Well worth every penny tho…

David

[DaveC6970]

Thanks again guys, believe me all the advice is appreciated.

My plan is to go back this weekend and try again to get the car running. Her daughter confirmed to me last night the last time the car was driven any distance was 3.5 years ago. This was only 5 or 6 miles to a local mechanic but in LA traffic that should have been enough for the car to reach temperature anyway. The car last ran a year ago and she said it ran fine. My understanding was this was moving the car from the garage for a general cleaning. I really want to get the car running and outside for a better inspection before talking any money.

I've attached to few photos as promissed. Sorry about the quality, low light and from my cell phone. -Dave

[Guest Marcisdave]

After reading all these posts, and seeing the pictures, it looks like a very nice survivor. On the question of the car needing a repaint.......is there any way that, if you purchase the car, you get the mechanicals sorted, have one of those paintless dent removal dudes take care of the dings and dents, give the paint a good cleaning and buffing, and show the car as a survivor ?

I 2nd what another poster said. A quality paint job for a big car like that can run some very serious $$$$$$. My cousin and I just recently did a quality paint job on a large car (74 Monte Carlo). Paint and materials alone were over 3k, and if we had farmed out the labor, add another 5 or 6k to that. We painted the hood, fenders, doors, trunk lid, ect.. OFF the car. Not sure of total hours labor spent, but it was a LOT. We were lucky in that were working with a rust free original car, just very tired paint....beyond saving.

Still, even with a rust free, straight car like that 66 Riv appears to be, a complete quality paint job that is 100% farmed out can break a budget. If there is any way to save the paint that is on the car, that might be worth considering.

[DaveC6970]

Marcisdave,

I think your idea of saving the current paint is a good one. My buddy and I were just discussing the value of keeping it original and trying to save the current paint. The small areas that have been touched up with a spray can I believe could be sanded back off with patience. Maybe a spot touch up with the correct matching paint would be ok and preserve the originality somewhat. I've also seen those dent guys work miracles on some panels so I'm starting to think the preservation route is the way to go for this car.

Thanks, Dave

[JZRIV]

After looking at pics it was my immediate thought that the paint looks like it may be usable as-is so agree 100% on that approach. White is one of the easiest colors to spot repair and blend.

I am going through a total high quality repaint on my 66 now and am so disgusted with delays that I will never buy another car that needs a total paint job unless I build a paint booth and learn to do it myself. Everyone has differnet levels of tolerance. Despite the satisfaction one gains in bringing a car back to all its original glory with a new paint job, in the future I'll be leaving that to the more tolerant and patient enthusiasts!

[RivNut]

have one of those paintless dent removal dudes take care of the dings and dents, give the paint a good cleaning and buffing, and show the car as a survivor .

If the car still has the original lacquer paint, it can be brought back to life. I know that lacquer paint is not acceptable as being "green" but I imagine that, if necessary, you might be able find a painter who has experience in touching up lacquer paint. Blending paint to match was one good thing about lacquer. You could wind up with a really nice looking original car.

Ed

[DaveC6970]

Thought I'd give a status update on the Riv.

I went back this weekend tried a few more things to get the Riv started, didn't have a lot of time but I'm reasonably sure it's the fuel pump. The engine will run priming the carb but quickly shuts off when it runs out of fuel. It did run long enough to develop a coolant leak. There's a small hose leading to thermostat housing at a right angle to the radiator hose, on the carb side. This small hose is attached to what looks like a diaphragm and this diaphragm was leaking coolant. Hope this explanation makes sense, I don't have a service manual (yet) for the proper names.

I was pointing out to the owner that these are the type of things that will start appearing when trying to put the car back into service. I know they think it's perfect, and it is well "preserved", but not perfect like their ad says. I explained before I put my family in it for a drive lots of things will need to be sorted.

I was able to move some stuff around and inspect the body better and I think the paint is salvageable. As my uncle always says, I think you could "grind a shine" on it. It would be worth a try at the very least.

Also checked the plates and noticed the last registration sticker was from 2000! So while they have been moving it and driving short trips, this vehicle wasn't intended to be driven regularly for many years.

I don't think there's much more I can do to get it running without taking the car apart in her garage and I'm really not comfortable doing that. So I made them an offer for the car as it sits, not running. It was more than anyone else has offered and I believe more than fair. I'll let you all know what happens.

Thanks again for all the advice -Dave