Guest red66malibu Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I have a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with the 375 HP option.I have installed a Cowl Plenum Air cleaner on the car.The part was not factory installed but could have beenbought from GM in 66. Would this be a point deduction since it was not factory installed. Thank you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 I have a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with the 375 HP option.I have installed a Cowl Plenum Air cleaner on the car.The part was not factory installed but could have beenbought from GM in 66. Would this be a point deduction since it was not factory installed. Thank you!!red66malibu:I'm no judge but the way the judging manual reads if it was not installed at the factory there will be a deduction. Thereare exceptions like if safety is involved.(eg. turn signals) If this is not correct please someone advise. Thanks Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 red66malibu,Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. I am a judge, so let me give you a correct answer to your question...If it was available as a factory authorized option for that car there will not be a deduction. If it was not available for that particular make and model of car, then it would be subject to a deduction as non-authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I have a 66 Chevelle SS 396 with the 375 HP option.I have installed a Cowl Plenum Air cleaner on the car.The part was not factory installed but could have beenbought from GM in 66. Would this be a point deduction since it was not factory installed. Thank you!!Just be sure to bring your documentation with you to the show. There is another '66 Chevelle that has reached Grand National Sr. in AACA with the cowl induction. Shouldn't be a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Just be sure to bring your documentation with you to the show. There is another '66 Chevelle that has reached Grand National Sr. in AACA with the cowl induction. Shouldn't be a problemreal61ss:Just curious; what possible documentation could he bring when the item in question was not a (RPO) "Regular Production Option". Sounds to me there is no gray area here. Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 real61ss:Just curious; what possible documentation could he bring when the item in question was not a (RPO) "Regular Production Option". Sounds to me there is no gray area here. Thanks-LarryThe item may be shown in the assembly manual, if not it should have a GM part number or a Chevrolet Tech Bulletin may have been generated to announce it's availablity. There has to be some type of documentation from Chevrolet if the part was available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The item may be shown in the assembly manual, if not it should have a GM part number or a Chevrolet Tech Bulletin may have been generated to announce it's availablity. There has to be some type of documentation from Chevrolet if the part was available.real61ss: Thanks for the response. But the way I see it is: "Part being available" is different from "Part being installed at the Factory when car was built"Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 real61ss: Thanks for the response. But the way I see it is: "Part being available" is different from "Part being installed at the Factory when car was built"Thanks-LarryLarry,Please don't think I'm being augurmentative but the rule book has been changed this year, it no longer reads "as received by the dealer from the factory". The new rule book reads....The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This includes any feature, option or accessory shown in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales literature, or company directives for the model year of the vehicle. The way I read the above, the factory no longer had to build the car, so long as the car or part was available through the dealer it is acceptable as long as it can be documented as being available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) ................The way I read the above, the factory no longer had to build the car, so long as the car or part was available through the dealer it is acceptable as long as it can be documented as being available.Which probably now more easily covers the 2X4 barrels carburators that were in the trunk of the new Camaros, was it, as they came off the delivery truck? Edited June 25, 2013 by R W Burgess spelling error (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Aftermarket parts, even if installed by the dealer, are still a no no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Larry,Please don't think I'm being augurmentative but the rule book has been changed this year, it no longer reads "as received by the dealer from the factory". The new rule book reads....The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This includes any feature, option or accessory shown in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales literature, or company directives for the model year of the vehicle. The way I read the above, the factory no longer had to build the car, so long as the car or part was available through the dealer it is acceptable as long as it can be documented as being available.real61ss: You are not being augumentative; we are just trying to express our "interpetation" of the rules. If in fact youare correct this opens up a lot of gray area's with the rules. I hope it is not true as this would take a lot out of the meaningof "original" cars. I hope someone could clear this up. People will start showing up with exhaust "headers" which in fact had a GM part number for certain cars like the Corvette. My meaning of original still stays the same-It has to be built thatway from the factory to qualify. JMHO Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Which probably now more easily covers the 2X4 barrels carburators that were in the trunk of the new Camaros, was it, as they came off the delivery truck?R W Burgess: That an old wives tale. According to everything I have researched the above never did happen. The only wayyou could get the above was "over the counter". This has been varified with a letter from GM which is in the "Jerry McNeish"book. Jerry is the probably most known authority for 1st Gen Camaro's. Also varified by CRG (Camaro Research Group).If someone would show up with the 2 X 4 setup it is a non-factory RPO. --Larry Edited June 25, 2013 by llskis (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 real61ss: You are not being augumentative; we are just trying to express our "interpetation" of the rules. If in fact youare correct this opens up a lot of gray area's with the rules. I hope it is not true as this would take a lot out of the meaningof "original" cars. I hope someone could clear this up. People will start showing up with exhaust "headers" which in fact had a GM part number for certain cars like the Corvette. My meaning of original still stays the same-It has to be built thatway from the factory to qualify. JMHO Larry....The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This includes any feature, option or accessory shown in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales literature, or company directives for the model year of the vehicle.The above is copied and pasted from the 2013 AACA Judges Guidlines. This is a big change from the previous rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 It always was "as it could have left the factory" not "as it actually left the factory". Not sure I see how the new interpretation is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 AACA judging has never required a car to be "as it left the factory". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The 2006 Judging Guideline stated on page 1 under General Policy..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received it from the factory". The 2013 Judging Guideline states on page 1 under General Policy.... " The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer." I see those two statements as a major difference, I'm sorry we have hi-jacked the cowl induction thread but this is worth discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The 2006 Judging Guideline stated on page 1 under General Policy..."The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle which has been restored to the same state as when the dealer received it from the factory". The 2013 Judging Guideline states on page 1 under General Policy.... " The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an antique vehicle, which has been restored to the same state as the dealer could have prepared the vehicle for delivery to the customer." I see those two statements as a major difference, I'm sorry we have hi-jacked the cowl induction thread but this is worth discussing. real61ss: Yes I see it now; don't agree with it though. I guess we are getting a lot like the politicians in that: If we don't have enough people to make thestandard then will just lower the standards. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I don't have my 2006 manual here but I think you will find that it goes on to say that any accessory or option that was available for that model in that model year is acceptable whether the car in question left the factory with those options or not. AACA does not check VINs or compare window stickers to what is actually on the car. If the car could have come from the factory or if the dealer could have equipped the car as presented there is no deduction, assuming all options are factory authorized. I don't see any lowering of standards. A factory authorized option was always accepted whether or not it was originally on the car presented for judging. Non factory authorized options were not accepted. Nothing has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I don't have my 2006 manual here but I think you will find that it goes on to say that any accessory or option that was available for that model in that model year is acceptable whether the car in question left the factory with those options or not. AACA does not check VINs or compare window stickers to what is actually on the car. If the car could have come from the factory or if the dealer could have equipped the car as presented there is no deduction, assuming all options are factory authorized. I don't see any lowering of standards. A factory authorized option was always accepted whether or not it was originally on the car presented for judging. Non factory authorized options were not accepted. Nothing has changed.Restorer32: OK thanks for response. If that's what it is will have to live with it. Like this forum because of different opinions come about. Enjoy belongingto the AACA. Thanks again; Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest red66malibu Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I'm new to the AACA Forum and I appreciate the feedback on this forum. The 66 Chevelle will be making its first show later this year at Cleveland, Tennessee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 You've piqued my curiosity. How does this interpretation deal with dealer-built cars like Yenko, Motion, and Nickey Chevrolet. I'm not talking about factory-built COPO cars, but actual engine swaps that were not factory available? What about a Yenko Stinger Vega with a turbocharger (again, never factory installed)? ASC McLaren Mustangs are another example. Are these cars eligible? To be honest, I'm not even sure I see the distinction between these cars and coachbuilt cars from the 1920s and 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 If the factory authorized those dealer built cars, they would be perfectly OK in AACA Judging. I know very little about those, but I suspect that factory documentation to show that those were "factory authorized" would be very difficult to obtain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 (edited) If the factory authorized those dealer built cars, they would be perfectly OK in AACA Judging. I know very little about those, but I suspect that factory documentation to show that those were "factory authorized" would be very difficult to obtain.Boy I hate to start on this again; but----The factory did not "authorize" the dealers to do this; they done this upon themselves.By changing the wording from the 2006 guide I believe whoever done this has openned up a big can of worms. Here is typicalexample: The 1970(Chevelle) LS6 450 HP could not come with A/C from the factory; Chevy advised against is due to the higher redlineof the engine. (A/C Compressor could not keep up). But I have seen Dealers still put it in with all GM parts after the car wasdelivered. Now where would this car stand in Judging? It has all ducumented parts from GM and can be proven?? CommentsPlease. Larry P.S. AFAIK there is no such ducumention to prove "authorization" that a certain part is for a certain model. Edited June 26, 2013 by llskis Added Info (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 llskis,As I said earlier, I don't know much about these. I suspect that the factory did not authorize these, but I don't know. That is why I posted what I posted. If there is no factory literature or documents authorizing them (which is what I expect), then they would receive major deductions in AACA Judging. I am not an expert, which is why I did not post, they were not factory authorized so they would be subject to major deductions for incorrect parts.You have said that you are not a judge. I would suggest that you attend a judging school. Maybe it would help you understand the judging guidelines and the judging process better. It is generally a good idea to "Never say never", which is why you will normally find judges using their words carefully to explain the process and answer questions. There is no reason to say, "Boy I hate to start on this again; but----The factory did not "authorize" the dealers to do this; they done this upon themselves."I suspect that you are correct and these cars would receive major deductions, but I am not going to pronounce that as a fact. I will continue to state that it would require documentation of factory authorization. And I still suspect that would be difficult to find, because I am relatively sure it does not exist. Documentation would generally be literature such as a factory sales literature, factory parts manual, factory service manual, factory service letters, and other similar factory produced documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I suspect that you are correct and these cars would receive major deductions, but I am not going to pronounce that as a fact. I will continue to state that it would require documentation of factory authorization. And I still suspect that would be difficult to find, because I am relatively sure it does not exist. Yenko, Motion, and Nickey cars are well documented and highly sought after. If there was any factory "authorization", it was likely unofficial. They are a significant part of musclecar history from the 1960s and early 1970s, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 MCHinson:Thank you ever so much; respect your response. No I'm not a judge for AACA but I am for other organizations. Getting back for the original question fromred66malibu: Hope this fellow does OK but all I am saying is that Cold Plenum Air Cleaner was never a RPO probably (I'm Guessing) due to the fact itwas a High Preformance Part that was not made for the everyday Chevelle. I suspect it had no previsons for Ice and Snow and the normal weather andthat's why Chevy never made it a RPO. Chevelles where sold in Alaska as we know. But certainly a dealer could buy it from GM and do whatever he wanted to do with it or if the customer demanded to be put on. There is no authorization pro or con from GM; all they cared about was selling the part period. Anyway I havesaid enough on the subject--Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 You've piqued my curiosity. How does this interpretation deal with dealer-built cars like Yenko, Motion, and Nickey Chevrolet. I'm not talking about factory-built COPO cars, but actual engine swaps that were not factory available? What about a Yenko Stinger Vega with a turbocharger (again, never factory installed)? ASC McLaren Mustangs are another example. Are these cars eligible? To be honest, I'm not even sure I see the distinction between these cars and coachbuilt cars from the 1920s and 30s.I think those conversions must have been approved by GM, weren't they covered by a warranty? If GM had not approved the car it would have voided the warranty. Anyway, they are not an issue in AACA, class 36B list the qualified cars and 1967 to 1969 Chevelle, Camaro & Nova Yenko 4V/427 cid are approved vehicles for the class. Class 36g includes the 1970 thru 1972 Yenko's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I think those conversions must have been approved by GM, weren't they covered by a warranty? If GM had not approved the car it would have voided the warranty. Anyway, they are not an issue in AACA, class 36B list the qualified cars and 1967 to 1969 Chevelle, Camaro & Nova Yenko 4V/427 cid are approved vehicles for the class. Class 36g includes the 1970 thru 1972 Yenko'sTommy, Thanks for the info. I'm not sure about the warranty. Certainly the COPO cars were covered by a factory warranty, since the engines were factory installed. I'm not sure about the dealer-installed crate motors, however. I know some of these dealers offered their own supplemental warranty on the modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 I think those conversions must have been approved by GM, weren't they covered by a warranty? If GM had not approved the car it would have voided the warranty. Anyway, they are not an issue in AACA, class 36B list the qualified cars and 1967 to 1969 Chevelle, Camaro & Nova Yenko 4V/427 cid are approved vehicles for the class. Class 36g includes the 1970 thru 1972 Yenko'sreal61ss: Just a footnote on the above. Talked to the Yenko owners in my class(36B) at Moline this weekend and as I understand it is that the 69 CamaroYenko's where actually COPO cars ordered from Chevy so the engines where installed at the factory so the GM warrenty was like any other GM car. Whenthe car arrived at Yenko Dealership he put on the strips an all the emblems, wheels and etc. It was a different story though for the 67 and 68's as he didR/R the engines and the warrenty was put out by him not GM. Thanks-Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 real61ss: Just a footnote on the above. Talked to the Yenko owners in my class(36B) at Moline this weekend and as I understand it is that the 69 CamaroYenko's where actually COPO cars ordered from Chevy so the engines where installed at the factory so the GM warrenty was like any other GM car. Whenthe car arrived at Yenko Dealership he put on the strips an all the emblems, wheels and etc. It was a different story though for the 67 and 68's as he didR/R the engines and the warrenty was put out by him not GM. Thanks-LarryGood information, thanks. I was in class 36b at Moline too, wish I could have met you. Which car did you have in the class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 Good information, thanks. I was in class 36b at Moline too, wish I could have met you. Which car did you have in the class?Hello Tom: Yes wish I could have met you also; next time around. I must have been on the far side with the 69 Hugger Orange Z28. Our classwas the biggest there. Some real nice cars in our class. That rain made for a long day; didn't it? Will take a week to clean the underneath of it. LarryP.S. Found out the hard way that one of my chamber pipe back mufflers was bad(Had rusted out from the inside out) which they cought in judging. We put a S/Steel one today; shouldlast a lifetime. FYI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Hello Tom: Yes wish I could have met you also; next time around. I must have been on the far side with the 69 Hugger Orange Z28. Our classwas the biggest there. Some real nice cars in our class. That rain made for a long day; didn't it? Will take a week to clean the underneath of it. LarryP.S. Found out the hard way that one of my chamber pipe back mufflers was bad(Had rusted out from the inside out) which they cought in judging. We put a S/Steel one today; shouldlast a lifetime. FYILarry, Are you a member of the SYC site? A couple of guys posted photos of the cars in 36b. Yours is posted, Go here AACA GN Meet - The Supercar Registry Bulletin Board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llskis Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Larry, Are you a member of the SYC site? A couple of guys posted photos of the cars in 36b. Yours is posted, Go here AACA GN Meet - The Supercar Registry Bulletin BoardTom: Thanks for the neat info. No not member of that one but on the CRG Board and various others like NCRS Discussion board. There are pictures ofour cars all over the internet. Have nice discussion going on with the NCRS on the Bloomington Gold in Champaign vs. AACA G/N in Moline. Lots ofpictures there also. Have the S/S Chamber Muffler on now (Got from Allens Exhaust); looks real nice and a lot more quiet. Now we have to start cleaningthe car after that horrible rain. OK; nice talking to you; we will catch you down the line. Larry P.S. Will you contact the AACA to get scoring info from themeet?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real61ss Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Tom: Thanks for the neat info. No not member of that one but on the CRG Board and various others like NCRS Discussion board. There are pictures ofour cars all over the internet. Have nice discussion going on with the NCRS on the Bloomington Gold in Champaign vs. AACA G/N in Moline. Lots ofpictures there also. Have the S/S Chamber Muffler on now (Got from Allens Exhaust); looks real nice and a lot more quiet. Now we have to start cleaningthe car after that horrible rain. OK; nice talking to you; we will catch you down the line. Larry P.S. Will you contact the AACA to get scoring info from themeet??No, I won't bother them, the car got it's Sr. GN so it had to have scored at least 390 points. Yeah, I got tied up in that Bloomington Gold thing, on our way out to Moline I got off the interstate in Champain, Il. about midnight and got the last room at the Holiday Inn, paid twice what it should have cost and I'm thinking "what the hell is going on, why are there no rooms". Then i noticed the parking lot was full of Corvettes!! I knew it was Bloomington Gold weekend but I didn't realize they had moved it to Champain......Duh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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